Neutral Light

Intech · May 31, 2012

I recently have been experiencing the neutral light coming on faintly or flickering when in any gear. I first pulled the gear position switch and the contacts appeared ok, but the cavity was full of really dirty oil. I cleaned the contacts and wiped out the switch cavity. The next ride the light flickered initially and went away. I rode yesterday and it came back with a vengeance. The neutral light started coming on while in gear, but now almost as bright as when it is actually in neutral. New sysmptom last night was that when it flickered while in 4th and 5th gear at a steady throttle position the engine stumbled. The stumbling stopped when I accelerated. When I got back home I rolled into the garage in first gear with the neutral light faintly on and dropped the kickstand. The engine stopped as expected and the neutral light went out when I released the clutch. I pulled the clutch in and heard a noise. I removed my helmet and did it again. It sounded like the fuel pump running, but not fully. I put it in neitral and the light came on normally and the clutch action didn't change anything.

Heading home shortly to start tearing into it. I have my NAFO trip starting in 12 days, so I have to put this to rest. I know one other person who is having the ligt problem. I haven't talked with him about this since last week, so I don't know if his has escalated. As a note, I regularly check my spiders. I have not done the recall, but I have installed Roadrunner's supplemental grounding harnesses.

Any help would be appreciated. There is only one thread I found in my searching that even remotely compares. It was a faulty gear position switch.

RossKean · May 31, 2012

Intech said:
I recently have been experiencing the neutral light coming on faintly or flickering when in any gear. I first pulled the gear position switch and the contacts appeared ok, but the cavity was full of really dirty oil. I cleaned the contacts and wiped out the switch cavity. The next ride the light flickered initially and went away. I rode yesterday and it came back with a vengeance. The neutral light started coming on while in gear, but now almost as bright as when it is actually in neutral. New sysmptom last night was that when it flickered while in 4th and 5th gear at a steady throttle position the engine stumbled. The stumbling stopped when I accelerated. When I got back home I rolled into the garage in first gear with the neutral light faintly on and dropped the kickstand. The engine stopped as expected and the neutral light went out when I released the clutch. I pulled the clutch in and heard a noise. I removed my helmet and did it again. It sounded like the fuel pump running, but not fully. I put it in neitral and the light came on normally and the clutch action didn't change anything.

Heading home shortly to start tearing into it. I have my NAFO trip starting in 12 days, so I have to put this to rest. I know one other person who is having the ligt problem. I haven't talked with him about this since last week, so I don't know if his has escalated. As a note, I regularly check my spiders. I have not done the recall, but I have installed Roadrunner's supplemental grounding harnesses.

Any help would be appreciated. There is only one thread I found in my searching that even remotely compares. It was a faulty gear position switch.

If not for the engine stumbling, I would suggest that the problem is a short in the gear selection switch. Mine was open so the neutral light didn't come on when the bike was in neutral and in the absence of continuity in the neutral circuit, the engine wouldn't start unless the clutch was pulled and the sidestand up - even with the tranny in neutral. If the engine stumbling is related, I don't have any idea unless it is a weak ground somewhere. Good luck with it.

Ross

Intech · May 31, 2012

RossKean said:
Intech said:

I recently have been experiencing the neutral light coming on faintly or flickering when in any gear. I first pulled the gear position switch and the contacts appeared ok, but the cavity was full of really dirty oil. I cleaned the contacts and wiped out the switch cavity. The next ride the light flickered initially and went away. I rode yesterday and it came back with a vengeance. The neutral light started coming on while in gear, but now almost as bright as when it is actually in neutral. New sysmptom last night was that when it flickered while in 4th and 5th gear at a steady throttle position the engine stumbled. The stumbling stopped when I accelerated. When I got back home I rolled into the garage in first gear with the neutral light faintly on and dropped the kickstand. The engine stopped as expected and the neutral light went out when I released the clutch. I pulled the clutch in and heard a noise. I removed my helmet and did it again. It sounded like the fuel pump running, but not fully. I put it in neitral and the light came on normally and the clutch action didn't change anything.

Heading home shortly to start tearing into it. I have my NAFO trip starting in 12 days, so I have to put this to rest. I know one other person who is having the ligt problem. I haven't talked with him about this since last week, so I don't know if his has escalated. As a note, I regularly check my spiders. I have not done the recall, but I have installed Roadrunner's supplemental grounding harnesses.

Any help would be appreciated. There is only one thread I found in my searching that even remotely compares. It was a faulty gear position switch.

Click to expand...

If not for the engine stumbling, I would suggest that the problem is a short in the gear selection switch. Mine was open so the neutral light didn't come on when the bike was in neutral and in the absence of continuity in the neutral circuit, the engine wouldn't start unless the clutch was pulled and the sidestand up - even with the tranny in neutral. If the engine stumbling is related, I don't have any idea unless it is a weak ground somewhere. Good luck with it.

Ross

Thanks Ross. Your thread was the one I was referring to!

Harald · May 31, 2012

Did you check ALL the spiders? There's 2 that are above the headlights and are very difficult to get to. These are numbered S7 and S8 and pretty much require pulling the whole nose assembly to reach them. Why do I know this? Because my S7 failed back in 2009 and I had similar symptoms. The other common failure spider is S6 that's under the glovebox.

My bike would intermittently stumble for a split second while riding, not start and have the headlights go out. It all started with just that occasional split second power drop while riding. When it finally failed, the headlights died while I was riding home in the dark on the twisty rural road I live on. Luckily I wasn't cranked over in a corner, but was just before my private road I live off of.

With a good hard failure I was able to troubleshoot. I also had what might be the same sound you are hearing, which I believe was the windshield trying to run in both directions at the same time. My failure was reported HERE.

If you find a burned spider other than the recalled S4 fix, please post on the TRACKING THREAD and report your failure at safercar.gov . Seems like we're seeing a lot of new failures as the riding season is getting into full swing. :angry:

Intech · May 31, 2012

Harald said:
Did you check ALL the spiders? There's 2 that are above the headlights and are very difficult to get to. These are numbered S7 and S8 and pretty much require pulling the whole nose assembly to reach them. Why do I know this? Because my S7 failed back in 2009 and I had similar symptoms. The other common failure spider is S6 that's under the glovebox.

My bike would intermittently stumble for a split second while riding, not start and have the headlights go out. It all started with just that occasional split second power drop while riding. When it finally failed, the headlights died while I was riding home in the dark on the twisty rural road I live on. Luckily I wasn't cranked over in a corner, but was just before my private road I live off of.

With a good hard failure I was able to troubleshoot. I also had what might be the same sound you are hearing, which I believe was the windshield trying to run in both directions at the same time. My failure was reported HERE.

If you find a burned spider other than the recalled S4 fix, please post on the TRACKING THREAD and report your failure at safercar.gov . Seems like we're seeing a lot of new failures as the riding season is getting into full swing. :angry:

Thanks for the feedback. I had read your S6 thread. I have gotten to all the spiders but one in the front cowling. Nothing found so far. I took my manual to work with me today so I could make some larger color copies of the wiring diagrams and left the damn thing there! Still doing some more disassembly tonight.

Also, I was riding in daylight, so I don't know if lights were affected.

RossKean · May 31, 2012

Just so you can eliminate it, check out the gear indicator switch. Disconnect it and check for any continuity between the neutral "pad" and any of the others. They should be open. If it checks out OK, then focus your attention elsewhere. shouldn't take more than 20 minutes or so. As I mentioned before, the other symptoms would suggest that it is probably something else but this is easy to rule out.

Ross

Intech · May 31, 2012

RossKean said:
Just so you can eliminate it, check out the gear indicator switch. Disconnect it and check for any continuity between the neutral "pad" and any of the others. They should be open. If it checks out OK, then focus your attention elsewhere. shouldn't take more than 20 minutes or so. As I mentioned before, the other symptoms would suggest that it is probably something else but this is easy to rule out.

Ross

Thanks. I did that last week when I first took it off and checked it again tonight. It still ohms out good.

Intech · May 31, 2012

OK no Spider bite. All checked out good. That is a relief, but back to WTF? I will do some deeper troubleshooting tomorrow when I have my manual back.

road runner · May 31, 2012

Bob

PM sent.

I think I'm the other affected by the lite coming on like yours.

Just to let others know. I swapped the gear position switch last night (with a known good one) and the same thing is happening, so it's not the switch. I think it is feedback from something not getting a good connection somewhere. So the hunt for the green connector begins.

Art

RossKean · May 31, 2012

Problem related to the grounding harness? Certainly seems to be a poor connection somewhere since to have both verified the gear position sensor.

Good luck in your hunt!

Ross

escapefjrtist · May 31, 2012

Intech -- another [light] just came on for me.

One of the PNW gang (Mount Rainier) had been having intermittent problems with his neutral light coming on, dimming, getting brighter and doing all sorts of funny stuff. This happened for 30k plus miles. The problem was finally traced to a relay. When his was close to failing, it buzzed and could be mistaken for a fuel pump sound. We replaced it and the neutral light is fixed and he reports his headlights are much brighter. The relay is located between the headlights, middle nose and easy to find once the ABCD panels are removed.

I believe it's number 22 on the Parts Fiche. PM Mount Rainier to confirm the part number. The relay is widely used in Yamaha motorcycles and ATVs so a local dealer had one in stock.

Good luck, hope this helps.

--G

Edit -- Just confirmed with Mount Rainier, this is the correct PN for the relay we replaced.

road runner · Jun 1, 2012

G

That is a great help. I don't have the FSM in front of me, but I wonder if that's what they called the relay unit for the neutral lite, side stand, clutch switch. If so, it has a few diodes in it, and I wanted to find it.

Thanks, Art

Intech · Jun 1, 2012

escapefjrtist said:
Intech -- another [light] just came on for me.

One of the PNW gang (Mount Rainier) had been having intermittent problems with his neutral light coming on, dimming, getting brighter and doing all sorts of funny stuff. This happened for 30k plus miles. The problem was finally traced to a relay. When his was close to failing, it buzzed and could be mistaken for a fuel pump sound. We replaced it and the neutral light is fixed and he reports his headlights are much brighter. The relay is located between the headlights, middle nose and easy to find once the ABCD panels are removed.

I believe it's number 22 on the Parts Fiche. PM Mount Rainier to confirm the part number. The relay is widely used in Yamaha motorcycles and ATVs so a local dealer had one in stock.

Good luck, hope this helps.

--G

Edit -- Just confirmed with Mount Rainier, this is the correct PN for the relay we replaced.

Thanks for the feedback. I took that relay off last night. It is on my suspect list. I was able to get to it from under the front without taking any panels off. I should have brought it to work with me to test on the bench. DUH! I may just run home and get it. the other thing that directly connects to that circuit is the clutch switch, so I will look at that closely, but I am very suspicious of the relay.

mcatrophy · Jun 1, 2012

Intech said:
escapefjrtist said:

Intech -- another [light] just came on for me.

One of the PNW gang (Mount Rainier) had been having intermittent problems with his neutral light coming on, dimming, getting brighter and doing all sorts of funny stuff. This happened for 30k plus miles. The problem was finally traced to a relay. When his was close to failing, it buzzed and could be mistaken for a fuel pump sound. We replaced it and the neutral light is fixed and he reports his headlights are much brighter. The relay is located between the headlights, middle nose and easy to find once the ABCD panels are removed.

I believe it's number 22 on the Parts Fiche. PM Mount Rainier to confirm the part number. The relay is widely used in Yamaha motorcycles and ATVs so a local dealer had one in stock.

Good luck, hope this helps.

--G

Edit -- Just confirmed with Mount Rainier, this is the correct PN for the relay we replaced.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I took that relay off last night. It is on my suspect list. I was able to get to it from under the front without taking any panels off. I should have brought it to work with me to test on the bench. DUH! I may just run home and get it. the other thing that directly connects to that circuit is the clutch switch, so I will look at that closely, but I am very suspicious of the relay.

In case it's of any help, I drew out the circuit around the relay to try to better understand what it's doing. This is for YCCS version, but I think you can simply ignore the bits associated with that.

(Click on image for larger view)

Intech · Jun 1, 2012

mcatrophy said:
Intech said:

escapefjrtist said:

Intech -- another [light] just came on for me.

One of the PNW gang (Mount Rainier) had been having intermittent problems with his neutral light coming on, dimming, getting brighter and doing all sorts of funny stuff. This happened for 30k plus miles. The problem was finally traced to a relay. When his was close to failing, it buzzed and could be mistaken for a fuel pump sound. We replaced it and the neutral light is fixed and he reports his headlights are much brighter. The relay is located between the headlights, middle nose and easy to find once the ABCD panels are removed.

I believe it's number 22 on the Parts Fiche. PM Mount Rainier to confirm the part number. The relay is widely used in Yamaha motorcycles and ATVs so a local dealer had one in stock.

Good luck, hope this helps.

--G

Edit -- Just confirmed with Mount Rainier, this is the correct PN for the relay we replaced.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I took that relay off last night. It is on my suspect list. I was able to get to it from under the front without taking any panels off. I should have brought it to work with me to test on the bench. DUH! I may just run home and get it. the other thing that directly connects to that circuit is the clutch switch, so I will look at that closely, but I am very suspicious of the relay.

Click to expand...

In case it's of any help, I drew out the circuit around the relay to try to better understand what it's doing. This is for YCCS version, but I think you can simply ignore the bits associated with that.

(Click on image for larger view)

That is awesome! Thanks. I was going to do that myself for the same reason.

Harald · Jun 1, 2012

Great info George! Sure sounds like that relay could be the culprit here.

Another relay to check while in the nose is the fuel pump relay. Probably not an issue with the neutral light problem, but I found corrosion on mine back when I was checking my bike over for smoked spiders. Not the best picture, but there was corrosion on one or two pins and remnants on the housing:

This particular relay is below and between the headlights and is hanging by a rubber mount.

Anyone (and especially those of us that ride all year in wet conditions) should make it a habit to check any and all connections whenever performing any maintenance on the bike. Better to catch problems in your garage and not on the side of the road.

ionbeam · Jun 1, 2012

The only way the neutral light comes on is if it is being grounded. The light receives power all the time, it is the act of grounding it that turns it on.

Unplug Coupler 2, front cowling wire harness; an eight wire coupler, the only one like that. If the neutral light goes out the problem is the gear switch or a problem with Coupler 2, such as corrosion. If the neutral light still remains on the problem is the Starter Cutoff Relay, or the associated connector. Unplug Starter Cutoff Relay, if the light goes off it's the relay, if the light remains on the problem will be a chaffed or pinched harness wire.

SkooterG · Jun 1, 2012

ionbeam said:
The only way the neutral light comes on is if it is being grounded. The light receives power all the time, it is the act of grounding it that turns it on.

Unplug Coupler 2, front cowling wire harness; an eight wire coupler, the only one like that. If the neutral light goes out the problem is the gear switch or a problem with Coupler 2, such as corrosion. If the neutral light still remains on the problem is the Starter Cutoff Relay, or the associated connector. Unplug Starter Cutoff Relay, if the light goes off it's the relay, if the light remains on the problem will be a chaffed or pinched harness wire.

I have no idea what any of that means or what you just said, but I'm in :wub:

road runner · Jun 1, 2012

All good info here. Thanks for sharing. One of the issues for me to diag mine is it's still intermittent.

Neutral Light

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