Helmets

I've decided to raise this for forum discussion, insights and perhaps enlightenment in light of a recent forum mbrs. accident

(Dennis, Pacific N.W thread)

Dennis had the new version of the HJC flip front helmet. It was on his head, and buckled securely as we had ridden with him all day. After leaving the road and hitting a tree, he lay unconscious, helmet laying some 15' away from his body, front open, D-rings still attached!!! The impact forced it off his head. Later inspection showed two slight cracks and interior padding deformed. Unquestionably, w/o a helmet, it would have been over.

Now this post from another m/c forum:

"And while I can't speak for everyone, I know I am still anxiously awaiting the news of what brand of helmet failed so miserably. I too suffered a massive head injury while wearing a flip face helmet this year. My helmet stayed both latched and on my head, but my skull was cracked in several places. I was wearing a Nolan, and Nolan actually paid for the shipping to have it returned to them for analysis. They couldn't believe it had failed, personally I think it did its job perfectly... I would have been dead with out it. "

I've discussed this at some length with a m/c industry parts rep and his first two questions were: was he fitted when purchasing the helmet? and was the chin strap firmly attached. Loose fitting helmets can cause a double impact to the brain... one internally in the skull, and the second externally against the helmet. Never fit for loose comfort..., the lining will eventually pack down and conform to good fit. Harborview Critical Care Unit in Seattle gets the worst case scenarios airlifted to them from as far away as Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho and in talking with one of the nurses she said usually the victims from states with no helmet laws don't even make it in alive. Not surprising???? I would like to see if they have done any studies on head injuries in regards to m/c helmets.

Not to set the standard or condescend to others with different preferances, but I have always given helmets the highest priority. It's never subjected to chemicals, kept clean, dry, and indoors, never had an impact but at 7 yrs. of age, I am considering the new Shoei 1100 discussed here in another thread. Absolutely nothing but a solid full facer for me!!!! (currently have Shoei RF900)

I have no actual data from studies on helmet failure but I believe the collective wisdom in this forum can be informative to all.

Have at it! Roamer

info, eval, testing of flips

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/accessori...ison/index.html

btw, all the info I have is Snell has never tested a flip helmet; so consequently, no flip helmet has failed a Snell test

I googled "snell approved flip up helmet"

in this current thread (CLICKY),

I posted a sarcastic ramble in my post #6 kinda in response to my cyberspace friend and fellow PGR leader, Toecutter's (his #3)

well, it took guts to post his opinion and I regret if I came down on him and caused him emotional grief with my post

especially after discovering the below.

then I googled "snell certification for flip helmets" lotsa stuff here as well

I am impressed with Mark, the motorcyclist owner and engineer by training at his company: California Scientific or CalSci

https://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Helmets.html

/quote

I have never owned one of these new flip-open helmets, most notably the HJC, Nolan, and Schuberth. None of the flip-open helmets have been submitted to Snell for testing. I now believe this is because the manufacturers know that the helmets will fail the test. I have heard SEVERAL STORIES now about people crashing in flip-open helmets and getting eye socket damage and concussions - in one case, a personal friend of mine. My friend had what seemed to be a relatively minor side impact on his head - the helmet was barely scarred at all. However, at the hospital he fell into a coma for three days, and was confused for another couple of weeks. He required two surgerys to repair his eye sockets so that his eyes would stay in his head. Frankly, his story really shook me up and I started investigating these helmets much more closely. I was not impressed with what I learned.

The shell of the flip-open helmets apparently work just fine. I have no indication that these helmets tend to open in a crash and expose your face. However, the hinge mechanism in flip-open helmets takes up space that in any other helmet would be shock- absorbing EPS styrofoam protecting your temples. The hinge mechanism intrudes into the impact-absorbing liner in the temple area. If you hit the side of your head on the ground (quite common in a fall) the hinge mechanism can hit your temple hard enough to break your skull. As they say in Ghostbusters, this would be bad.

I spoke at length with the people at the Snell institute about this topic (7/04). They have never had a flip-open helmet submitted to them for certification, and therefore have never tested one, nor have they paid much attention to them. They found my statement, that flip-open helmets can cause temple damage, quite interesting. I learned from them that essentially all helmet manufacturers have in-house testing facilities and do a very good job of this. They named three companies in particular who do a superlative job; all three make flip-open helmets. I was told that the manufacturers can perform the Snell certification tests just as well as Snell can, so they know well in advance if they are going to pass.

Snell and DOT testing is performed with a magnesium dummy head in the helmet. The magnesium head has one accelerometer located at the center of gravity. This means the accelerometer cannot test for twisting forces, and it can only record the average impact force on the head, the force averaged over the entire surface of the magnesium head. There is no way this device could record a sharp impact on a small area, such as might occur if the hard plastic hinge mechanism hit the magnesium skull. The Snell and DOT tests have separate tests for the shell, to see that they resist penetration by sharp objects. The tests are not designed to record if a small hard object already inside the shell hits your head. So, it turns out that Snell and DOT tests are not very sensitive to an impact from a hinge mechanism.

None the less, it's interesting that none of the flip-open helmets have ever been submitted to Snell for independent testing. Some of the companies that make these helmets pay to have essentially all of their other street helmets certified, but not the flip-open in particular. I find this exceedingly suspicious.

I recommend you avoid flip-open helmets if safety is a concern. Side impacts to your head are quite common in motorcycle accidents. The temple area is the weakest part of the skull. Injury to the temple area can cause substantial brain damage and substantial vision impairment. If you have a side impact in a crash I believe flip-open helmets will likely cause temple fractures and concussions far in excess of what you would have from a full-face or open-face Snell helmet. I believe you're safer in an open-face helmet than in a flip-open.

Update 8/07: I continue to receive emails from riders who have had temple damage while wearing flip-open helmets. It seems perhaps there is a particular brand that has this problem; none the less I stand by my position that the convenience of the flip-opens is not worth the risk of eye socket damage, concussion, and multiple surgeries.

/unquote

huum, something more to think about

I'm a current flip helmet wearer and have been a happy one, but never tested one in person or with a rider anywhere around me.

let's ride safe and be careful out there,

Mike in Nawlins'

I had a discussion with Bruce Porter from Arai asking them if they intend on making a flip-front. He smiled when I asked and said that the number of times he is asked that question at bike shows indicates to him that there is a very high demand for that helmet style. They have not been able to engineer a flip front helmet that meets their full face standards for safety and, until that day comes, don't expect to see an Arai flip-front.

He continued on in his technical speak and he may as well have been speaking Japanese. Had something to do with the forces that are placed on the helmet shell and the transfer of energy at time of impact and every type of hinge mechanism in which they have experimented has been the weak point and failed to provide their desired results.

When Arai makes one, I'll buy one.

I'm not brand loyal on many things, but, for helmets, I am.

I wear glasses and I ride a LOT, since my bikes are my main transpo. If I couldn't get a flip-up, I would have probably considered not wearing a helmet, at least for short trips, as most glasses frames can't take the stress of being frequently threaded into a helmet. They always start bending or breaking off temple pieces after a couple weeks.

(I also can't stand D-rings, so I'm stuck with Nolan helmets, since they're the only flip-up with a buckle, and no, the Echo POS doesn't count as a buckle)

Anyway, I've seen some really poor design. I bought an HJC Symax, and a week later I had it sitting on the arm of the lazyboy with the flip open. It fell over into the seat of the lazyboy, a fall of only about 8", and the HINGE BROKE right off the shell. I wasn't impressed with that.

Patriot's point about the hinge taking up foam protection space is something I hadn't considered, or seen argued anywhere else.

Crash Cash said:

I wear glasses and I ride a LOT, since my bikes are my main transpo. If I couldn't get a flip-up, I would have probably considered not wearing a helmet, at least for short trips, as most glasses frames can't take the stress of being frequently threaded into a helmet. They always start bending or breaking off temple pieces after a couple weeks.

Click to expand...

No offense meant here but I've worn glasses all my life, been riding over 30 years and always worn full face helmets (on and off road). I have never bent or broke temple pieces (after a couple of weeks?????), and they do make strong-flexible frames.

I guess our frame sizes and helmet choices are somewhat different...

Fjroamer said:

Crash Cash said:

I wear glasses and I ride a LOT, since my bikes are my main transpo. If I couldn't get a flip-up, I would have probably considered not wearing a helmet, at least for short trips, as most glasses frames can't take the stress of being frequently threaded into a helmet. They always start bending or breaking off temple pieces after a couple weeks.

Click to expand...

No offense meant here but I've worn glasses all my life, been riding over 30 years and always worn full face helmets (on and off road). I have never bent or broke temple pieces (after a couple of weeks?????), and they do make strong-flexible frames.

I guess our frame sizes and helmet choices are somewhat different...

Click to expand...

Yeah, that probably should have been months instead of weeks, but I've had the plastic earpieces work off, the temple pieces bend, and the hinges just plain break, in addition to sticking myself in the eye with them when I'm really in a hurry. I had one pair that was bad for bending at the nose piece. They didn't do too well being quickly crammed on my face while I was trying to keep up with my non-glasses-wearing riding friends. There wasn't any strong flexible frames that I could afford back when I was wearing full-face helmets in college. The titanium or memory-metal frames were rare and too expensive. For me, it's only been the last 10 years or so they've been commonly available.

I did the damn wax-on/wax-off routine at least a dozen times a day as I rode between home, class, library, lunch, work, dinner, studying, and whatever other activities I had, and when flip-ups appeared, you could have heard the "OH THANK GOD" at least a state away.

I remember hearing about the BMW Concept helmets in rec.motorcycle on USENET before they were available in the US, and being really excited about it.

The Zeus 3000 passes Snell and DOT and is a flip-up. https://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/zeus-helmet/zeus-3000/ . I try to stay away from plastic hinges on modulars. I also prefer the 2 piece latch release vs just the depress a button and lift. Personally , I do not see enough data to conclude they are any more dangerous , perhaps potentially. I think the ECE 22.05 is a better testing standard than the DOT or Snell ( Snell is updating the standard by the way ) so I look for one that is ECE 22.05 and DOT. Helmets are supposed to compress internally and slow your head down and spread the shock via the inner core. If it does it job it should look slightly flattened or compressed internally.

Patriot said:

.... Snell has never tested a flip helmet; so consequently, no flip helmet has failed a Snell test

Click to expand...

Lemme fix that for ya:

Patriot said:

.... Snell has never tested a flip helmet; so consequently, no flip helmet has passed a Snell test

Click to expand...

My one and only helmet impact has convinced me to stay away from flip-face lids. I mean, look where it hit! I had zero head problems from this hit. No bell-ringing, no headache, no fuzzy vision, no dizziness, nothing. I can still speak clearly and chew my own food, even.

Patriot said:

I posted a sarcastic ramble in my post #6 kinda in response to my cyberspace friend and fellow PGR leader, Toecutter's (his #3)well, it took guts to post his opinion and I regret if I came down on him and caused him emotional grief with my post

especially after discovering the below.

Click to expand...

No guts, no grief, no worries. It's only my opinion, not worth a plugged nickel in the actual world. I ask only one thing from my helmet: to minimize skull and brain damage in case of a head impact. Well, maybe more, like comfort, color (white to look more like a cop, which keeps people from doing mindless ****, if even momentarily), and quietness, but the priority is impact protection. To that end, I place my faith in scientific testing, most notably that in this article.

I gave away my Shoei RF-1000 and picked up a Fulmer AFD-4 after reading it. Reading that article also shed some light on a personal dilemma I had been grappling with. My wife's boss suffered a debilitating brain injury subsequent to a 30 mph deer-strike. Guess what kind of helmet? Snell.

J Burleigh was heavily concussed in a parking lot tip-over. Snell again.

Kaitsdad's wife fell from her pillion peg backward to a concrete surface, striking her head hard enough to crack the lining of the Caberg (non-Snell) helmet she was wearing. No ill effects.

MadMike pile-drove a guardrail post in his Snell helmet. Fairly severe brain injury. He'll deny it, but that is to be expected.

I just haven't heard of many people my age walking away from a substantial helmet impact while wearing a Snell helmet, so the article I read has given me no reason not to believe the science behind it. So, until I have good reason to change my mind, I'll stick with my current choice of helmet; non-flip and non-Snell. YMMV, as always....

all the info, speculation, and rumors on the Snell 2010 is they are modifying their "hard" line approach and "softening" their testing because of past critisism.

google "snell 2005 vs 2010"

From the May 2007 Motorcyclist:

/quote

New Helmet Standard for 2010

Snell sees the light

Sometimes it's hard to be humble. The Snell Foundation recently announced major changes to its proposed M2010 motorcycle helmet standard that would bring it more in line with the U.S. DOT and European ECE 22-05 standards. Snell is now acknowledging the fact that smaller heads weigh less than bigger ones—and that the helmets we put on those heads shoujld be designed around that fact.

Practically speaking, this means smaller-sized Snell 2010 helmets will likely be designed using less-rigid shells and softer Styrofoam liners, because the head forms they will be tested with will be considerably lighter, reducing the total energy of the test impacts.

This is a very good thing.

It also means a smaller helmet designed to meet Snell M2010 might not pass Snell 2005. Which would we pick? The 2010 helmet, every time.

We questioned Snell's position that "one weight fits all" in our "Blowing the Lid Off" helmet-impact-test story (Motorcyclist, June 2005). Snell's recent reversal of its position acknowledges that the respected head-injury scientists who have been arguing with the Foundation about this for years were right.

/unquote

happyPuppy said:

The Zeus 3000 passes Snell and DOT and is a flip-up. https://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/zeus-helmet/zeus-3000/ . I try to stay away from plastic hinges on modulars. I also prefer the 2 piece latch release vs just the depress a button and lift. Personally , I do not see enough data to conclude they are any more dangerous , perhaps potentially. I think the ECE 22.05 is a better testing standard than the DOT or Snell ( Snell is updating the standard by the way ) so I look for one that is ECE 22.05 and DOT. Helmets are supposed to compress internally and slow your head down and spread the shock via the inner core. If it does it job it should look slightly flattened or compressed internally.

Click to expand...

quote from above thread about the Zeus:

Currently, only the 55 cm (small) shell size meets the Snell 2005 standard

I'm no fan of Snell 2005 as I don't race or plan to go down at over 100mph. I'm the one who trips getting off the bike and falls 4 feet to the pavement. Much rather a "softer" DOT certified helmet for that.

I'll be much more inclined to accept a helmet with the new Snell 2010 standard which is close to DOT and matches Europe standards closely.

:angry2:

Randy said:

I had a discussion with Bruce Porter from Arai asking them if they intend on making a flip-front. He smiled when I asked and said that the number of times he is asked that question at bike shows indicates to him that there is a very high demand for that helmet style. They have not been able to engineer a flip front helmet that meets their full face standards for safety and, until that day comes, don't expect to see an Arai flip-front. He continued on in his technical speak and he may as well have been speaking Japanese. Had something to do with the forces that are placed on the helmet shell and the transfer of energy at time of impact and every type of hinge mechanism in which they have experimented has been the weak point and failed to provide their desired results.

When Arai makes one, I'll buy one.

I'm not brand loyal on many things, but, for helmets, I am.

Click to expand...

I too have spent time talking with Bruce Porter. (He gave me the same answers regarding flip up helmets)

Bruce also went on to say that once a helmet is manufacturered it has a lifespan of about 5 years max. The reason is the helmets are layered composites, and as soon as you pull it out of the mold, it actually starts the delaminating process. Under normal usage (with no drops or crashes) it takes about 5 years of age before a helmet no longer can deliver the design impact protection.

He explained that when a helmet is dropped or impacted in a crash, the laminate layers start to accelerate the rate of the delaminating process. It is one of the means designed into helmets that helps to spread out the impact and to control the rate at which energy is transferred to the head (and consequently the brain) The longer they can spread out this time, the less energy that reaches the brain and the less severe any brain injury.

He said if you drop a helmet, even if it is from the seat to ground that you should replace the helmet it is damaged even if you cannot see it.

I pesonnaly don't wear a Arai helmet currently because I could not find one that fit properly (and Bruce was doing the fitting). At the last Cycle World MC show, I ran into him again, and he had me try the Vector, which is the first Arai that fits me properly. I will be buying one of them for my next helmet when I replace my existing one in about a year.

I have known Bruce since my racing days back in the '90's. He is very respected by all racers and very generous with his time and support regarding Arai helmets. I did use to wear a Quantum e for racing, but could not wear it for long periods of time due to pressure on the front and back of the head. But the Vector does fit my head shape properly. Bruce always stressed how important proper fit is.

A friend of mine, wearing a flip face helmet, high-sided his bike at highway speed. The flip "opened" on first impact. Among other injuries, all minor, he had road rash to his nose and chin. He was "lucky."

My HJC flip went directly to the shelf in favor of a Shoei RF-1000 full face helmet. The Shoei may/may not provide more protection but it provides me w/ more peace of mind.

FWIW and YMMV.

Toecutter said:

To that end, I place my faith in scientific testing, most notably that in this article.

Click to expand...

I have read that article and it is really provocative. I think that the deeper point to it is that there is a limit to what you can do to protect the head. helmets like the RF1000 many protect the skull better but the trade off is that they exert more force on the brain.

wfooshee said:

My one and only helmet impact has convinced me to stay away from flip-face lids. I mean, look where it hit! I had zero head problems from this hit. No bell-ringing, no headache, no fuzzy vision, no dizziness, nothing. I can still speak clearly and chew my own food, even.

Click to expand...

Why? I had a hit like this on my Nolan N103 about 2 months ago, and it it seems to have protected me just fine. The flipup didn't open but the visor pivot came out of the other side of the helmet and won't snap back in. I hit on the visor as above, as well as just above the pivot. I do remember skittling like a rock and about 3 head hits.

I had a car cut me off in the rain and I went down at about 30mph and slllllliiiiiiiiiiiiid on the wet road for what seemed like miles and hours, but was about 60ft. This helmet was about a year old. (FYI, I was wearing a Tourmaster Intake mesh jacket under my rainsuit and it's not damaged. The rainsuit didn't live, though.)

So I took it apart to investigate Patriot's "hinge mechanism in flip-open helmets takes up space" theory. From what I can see, yes it does, to the tune of about 2mm taken up by the flatter part of the helmet as well as the internal sun-shield. Since the rest of the foam is about 35mm thick, that's less than 6%. The hinge mechanism has no internal pieces, it's what you see is what you get.

What surprised me is that the foam is in 3 pieces. There's the big cranial piece, and 2 cheek pieces that overlap under the hinge where your ears are. I don't know if this is standard, because it's the only helmet I've completely disassembled.

I can't see any foam crush damage anywhere. Apparently, except for the broken visor pivot and the scuffing, I took apart a perfectly good helmet. I thought it would be a lot more damaged than that, but maybe I can't tell by eye.

So I'm satisfied that you get what you pay for in flipups, just like regular helmets, and if you stay away from the cheap Korean crap, you'll be OK. I have another N103 on order.

Now what folks haven't mentioned is chin clearance. I have just about none on any of my flipups, and 3 days of not shaving starts going crunchycrunch. I can't take any of them off w/o opening the flip. If I did a total dirt-bike style face-plant, I'd worry a little about damage to my chin or jaw.

Crash,

I am sure the insert is far more damaged than you think. the process of distributing the impact across space and time results in the energy of the impact passing through the foam and fracturing the laminations (remember its thousands of little pieces that are bonded).

Kevin Daly said:

Crash,I am sure the insert is far more damaged than you think. the process of distributing the impact across space and time results in the energy of the impact passing through the foam and fracturing the laminations (remember its thousands of little pieces that are bonded).

Click to expand...

Yup, that's why I'm buying another $300 helmet. I subscribe to the "if you drop it, it's trashed" theory of helmet care.

EDIT: Actually, I think it's pretty damaged, and I think it's a little scary that it's not that visible.

Dadgomet Toecutter: You just had to put that link article in there; Finally finished that novel and I want to say THANK YOU!

Truly good work by the magazine journalist; I was quite surprised to know that Snell received a little change for each sticker per helmet sold/certified, pennies add up you know!

Even more stunning was Snell's response letter; a shorter novel, was quite defensive. And to say that a manufacturer is justified to charge up to $100.00 to cover cost and material to meet their standard is a bit incredulous on their part.

Here I am shopping for a new helmet, went to a couple dealerships today. Figured out one thing, although I am really attracted to the flip-up modular; The darn thing rubs my chin....couldn't chew gum in it. Tried many models, The Shoei came close RF-1000 (As said by Warchild, they are running some good sales...but still too close to the chin bone. I could imagine going face first and crushing the jawbone; not good.

I am definitely going for the full face helmet, just have to find a soft one now. The article made great sense. There is a very small chance I will go down flying in the air and coming down directly on my head; forget the brain-- broken neck then.

So back to shopping I go.

Thanks again for posting it up.

Remington I wanted a Shoei RF 1000 but I found the chin piece to short eg my chin was hanging out the bottom and to close to my mouth.

The Arai Vector (well thats what we call it in OZ) fits better than ALL the others on MY head.