A or AE? That is the question.

Hi gang. Just sold my '03 BMW K1200RS a few hours ago. It was the best bike I've ever had, but decided to sell it for several reasons. The most important for your perspective is I wanted a better handling bike, and preferrably lighter.

Have had many bikes before (Hayabusa, XX, VFR, etc), and still have an '03 SV1000 naked in the garage (bought brand new a year ago), which is my 'hooligan' bike, but need a proper sport-tourer to replace the BMW.

Anyway, as always, my timing on bikes is never good for one reason or another. Am also considering the VFR, by the way. Coming from a KRS, it's obvious I prefer the shaft, and many other features of the FJR. Does it handle like a VFR? I doubt it, since it's almost as porky as my BMW. But as long as it handles better than the KRS, and has at least a bit more cornering clearance, it's a compromise I'm willing to take.

But here's the real problem of me owning one of these great machines. I HATE the burgundy color, as well as the blue, so an available A is almost out of the question. And no, I'm not going to drop 12 grand and repaint a brand new bike, with the added problem of future buyers thinking I wrecked it. And also don't want to wait until '08 for one.

Soooo, the only option of buying an FJR seems to be the AE, and that's if I get it cheap (like an A). A used one with less than 1K miles would be okay if pristine. I don't really want one, but want to learn more about them as it might be cool to have. So here it goes:

- Does anybody know of their reliability? BIkes for sale have less than 1K miles; unbelievable. It worries me.

- Does the ECU match revs on downshifts? If not, can you blip it while hitting the lever/pedal? Otherwise the clutch will be toast much sooner than on an A, no?

- How does it handle parking lots and U-turns? Sounds tricky as hell.

- Any extras only available on the AE, like heated grips? Just curious.

- Does the clutch actuator hydraulic as well? If so, what's the deal to bleed the fluid on those??

Any other comments you might have, including on the VFR, please fire away. I'm all ears, good or bad. Thanks.

JC

Buy an '04 :yahoo:

toecutter said:

Buy an '04 :yahoo:

Click to expand...

GUNNY!

I have owned quite a few bikes in my time. one a Honda SABRE 45 (a gentlemanly VFR) and I'm truly content with the AE. My cousin, that I ride with now and again, has a 1200GT that is pretty tricked out. We have switched back and forth many times. I am always glad to get back on the AE. And he has gone from "Yama what?" to "pretty neat" - to "aw come on, lets switch for just a little bit." I humor him cause he is 6'1" and built like Swartzenager. Great crew on my sailboat!

Once you get the AE down (very simple) it's tough to go back.. Downshift passing happens by thought - RIGHT NOW! The system is better than I am (or Jimmy) at matching RPMs, especially in the twisties. It takes a little getting used to the slow speed manuvering as in parking lots and U turns because you don't have that immediate disconnect from all that torque. With the A you coax yourself forward with the clutch. With the AE you use a little throttle and limit your speed with the brake - essentially the opposite. Takes about 2 days to get used to and then you're off and running.

If you are a 1/4 mile type ride the AE is NOT for you. It simply won' t allow clutch abuse, PERIOD. It also forces you to down shift as it will not easily let you transition more than 2 gears while stopped. (Actually, it will but that is in advanced AE techniques) I have a feeling the AE's are going to have a bit longer clutch life and much extended brake life. How robust the electronic sensors and bits prove to be remains to be seen but I have not heard of a failure yet. My pillion remarks that she cannot feel any of the "expected" lurch while shifting. She thinks it is an automatic, only smoother. This from a lady who has many Gold Wing miles behind her.

My only gripe is that there is no "coasting". I wish it had a coast button. Sometimes I used to coast down a long exit ramp and rachet down into neutral during the glide. Not good form, I know. Now I am forced to engine brake, which is good decipline and why I think the pads will be there a long time.

If you get one (highly reccomended) be sure and leave it in neutral at stoplights. Old habits die hard . . .

Flyguy said:

I have owned quite a few bikes in my time. one a Honda SABRE 45 (a gentlemanly VFR) and I'm truly content with the AE. My cousin, that I ride with now and again, has a 1200GT that is pretty tricked out. We have switched back and forth many times. I am always glad to get back on the AE. And he has gone from "Yama what?" to "pretty neat" - to "aw come on, lets switch for just a little bit." I humor him cause he is 6'1" and built like Swartzenager. Great crew on my sailboat!
Once you get the AE down (very simple) it's tough to go back.. Downshift passing happens by thought - RIGHT NOW! The system is better than I am (or Jimmy) at matching RPMs, especially in the twisties. It takes a little getting used to the slow speed manuvering as in parking lots and U turns because you don't have that immediate disconnect from all that torque. With the A you coax yourself forward with the clutch. With the AE you use a little throttle and limit your speed with the brake - essentially the opposite. Takes about 2 days to get used to and then you're off and running.

If you are a 1/4 mile type ride the AE is NOT for you. It simply won' t allow clutch abuse, PERIOD. It also forces you to down shift as it will not easily let you transition more than 2 gears while stopped. (Actually, it will but that is in advanced AE techniques) I have a feeling the AE's are going to have a bit longer clutch life and much extended brake life. How robust the electronic sensors and bits prove to be remains to be seen but I have not heard of a failure yet. My pillion remarks that she cannot feel any of the "expected" lurch while shifting. She thinks it is an automatic, only smoother. This from a lady who has many Gold Wing miles behind her.

My only gripe is that there is no "coasting". I wish it had a coast button. Sometimes I used to coast down a long exit ramp and rachet down into neutral during the glide. Not good form, I know. Now I am forced to engine brake, which is good decipline and why I think the pads will be there a long time.

If you get one (highly reccomended) be sure and leave it in neutral at stoplights. Old habits die hard . . .

Click to expand...

[SIZE=12pt]+1[/SIZE]

Toecutter, I want the upgrades of the '06+, and preferrably a new bike; hence not considering older models.

Flyguy, that was one hell of a post buddy; really appreciated.

But one question wasn't perfectly clear; didn't understand if you implied you or the machine, so let me ask again with a yes or no answer: Does the AE revmatch by itself on downshifts?

And what's the 'advanced AE' way to downshift more than 2 shifts? One habit I have is coasting (in high gear) as well, and going down to N before stopping (otherwise it's a b*tch, as we all know), and am afraid I'd need that technique at least initially. My brake pads look almost like new on my now departed BMW, which had 15K miles. I only used it for tours, which will be the same with the future bike. Glad to know it'd be the same on the AE, and that it does not allow clutch abuse... unless you leave it in other than 1st while stopped, huh?

And not, I'm not a 1/4 mile type of guy by any stretch of the imagination (on the contrary), so the AE is sounding VERY interesting.

Oh, and one other thing: We have to change gears like 'normal', which means closing the throttle between shifts, correct? Just curious. Seems to me if we don't time the throttle right, we'd get jerking, just like when we mess up a normal shift (like opening throttle too soon), no? Again, just trying to fully understand the nature of the beast.

And the last is how does it react when having to take off (from '0') aggressively. Almost never do it, but it's important to know. Sometimes you have to get out of the way in a hurry. So do you open a handful, or a fraction of a second moderately while the clutch is fully engaged, and then whack it open? THat's exactly how I'd do it on mine, precisely to not abuse the clutch. Once out, then gooooo.

Thanks again for your help gentlemen. Have a great day.

JC

Flyguy, +2. (Minus the coasting stuff) I really love the AE in the turns, It's just tooooo much fun. While I am a 1/4 mile kinda guy, I've gotten over it for the AE. It just doesn't seem that there is a way to make the launch equal a standard clutch bike. However once over about 5mph, my AE runs dead even with the '04 I sold my buddy, so you lose nothing of the thrill of acceleration that the FJR is known for. Another advanced AE technique is the AE speed shift. Done correctly, it's a reasonably quick shift, and certainly easier on the bike than a speed shift on a conventional clutch bike.

So where the hell are the 'advanced AE techniques'? You guys like to be begged, huh?

ELP_JC said:

But one question wasn't perfectly clear; didn't understand if you implied you or the machine, so let me ask again with a yes or no answer: Does the AE revmatch by itself on downshifts?

Click to expand...

No, there is no control of the engine by the electric gearshift system.

ELP_JC said:

Oh, and one other thing: We have to change gears like 'normal', which means closing the throttle between shifts, correct? Just curious. Seems to me if we don't time the throttle right, we'd get jerking, just like when we mess up a normal shift (like opening throttle too soon), no? Again, just trying to fully understand the nature of the beast.

Click to expand...

Yes, a momentary dip of the throttle will give very smooth up-shifts. Downshifts depend; if simply slowing I just keep the throttle closed and let the bike control the clutch, it lets the clutch in slowly enough to avoid a jerk, but quickly enough so you know you would have done better with a manual. If changing down to accelerate, I just dip the throttle as for an up-shift, works for me.

ELP_JC said:

And the last is how does it react when having to take off (from '0') aggressively. Almost never do it, but it's important to know. Sometimes you have to get out of the way in a hurry. So do you open a handful, or a fraction of a second moderately while the clutch is fully engaged, and then whack it open? That's exactly how I'd do it on mine, precisely to not abuse the clutch. Once out, then gooooo.

Click to expand...

From zero, by all means wack the throttle open. You will take off like you won't believe. Every time. No skill. Open and GO. Like now. Just be careful if the road's slippery.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to stall. You can take off in 4th if you want (I've done it, it's a bit slow getting away, but it will do it without hesitation).

You also asked about clutch wear. I've been using mine for a short city commute, running in heavy stop-go traffic. I seem to spend much of the time in the "slip" zone. It has coped perfectly well with this. My feeling is that hard take-offs give less stress on the clutch than my commuting. I don't think you need worry about clutch wear.

Hope that helps you.

mcatrophy said:

Hope that helps you.

Click to expand...

Tremendously. Thanks a bunch buddy.

But now, what's with all the problems with '07s????? I figured it'd be perfectly dialed in by now, and I read a lot of stuck clutch problems, fueling problems (surging), very hard thorttle actuation, and others not so common that don't worry me. But geez, seems many manufacturers are going backwards after every iteration.

Hey guys, have 2 more questions:

- How the heck do you bleed the clutch on the AE? I noticed it also has a hydraulic slave, just like the A. Hope it doesn't require a computer interface. I imagine it could be bled by vacuum, but I like bleeding clutches with the lever itself, at least once, to push all the old fluid out.

- Does the AE come standard with heated grips ? If so, no hanging (visible) wires? And how about '06/'07 As?

Thanks. Sorry for all the questions, but after this thread, anybody inquiring about an AE should have all the anwers they need. I searched for AE, and only 3 threads with virtually no info came up. Not many are posting, huh? Later.

JC

Both '06 and '07 AE come standard with heated grips. Heated grips are not standard for the A, but are an option (read: pay $400+ for the grips + instalation by the dealer) for the '06 '07.

Just find an AE owner that hates silver & swap plastic, or find a dealer that'll swap plastic between 2 bikes to give you a silver A.

ELP jc asked:

But now, what's with all the problems with '07s????? I figured it'd be perfectly dialed in by now, and I read a lot of stuck clutch problems, fueling problems (surging), very hard thorttle actuation, and others not so common that don't worry me. But geez, seems many manufacturers are going backwards after every iteration.

Click to expand...

Bikes have become complicated beasts that competition insists on pushing the engineering envelope on a continual basis. Take the clutch for instance. To make the FJR what it is, the engine produce a ton of hp and torque even at low RPM's. This requires strong springs in the pressure plate which in turn requires a powerful clutch lever. Simple, design a long throw with lots of leverage or powerful hydraulic assist. Wrong. The market demands a short throw and Princess and the pea sensitivity. All these are in conflict/compromise. Remember theh days of Hurst shifters and Muncie 4 speeds w/ HD clutches and plates? You couldn't let your girlfriend drive them unless she had legs like "Aaanald". Over to a VW and you couldn't do it wrong. Lever action was similar to your turn signal effort as the clutch delt with no power and You could let it out slow; dump it; forget the gas; whatever; that was because 1st gear was so short you redlined at about 12mph. The FJR tames 145hp and bumps the limiter at close to 70 in first! We AE riders on the other hand don't worry ourselves about such mundane affairs.

The throttle snachyness (however you spell it) and surging, especially at altitude seems to be a common malady that reaches across models and brands. BMW guys talk about it on their forums too. Seems to be related to the new super lean '08 emissions standards. PCIII are becoming almost a requirement. Easy fix. You can do what the government won't let the manufacturers do, and do it much more cheaply anyway.

The cable tension thing is more intriguing. I do not feel that I have gotten a satifactory answer from Yamaha on this one - yet. The best they could do is that a certain (excessive) amount of spring tension assures their lawyers that the throttle will close in even the bizzarest of situations even after years of flexing. The also understand that it will be commonly altered but then they're off the hook. Anyway, that's a simple fix also, so it's another thing that gives forum readers the home court advantage. :yahoo: Believe me, I have talked to many FJR owners who didn't know it existed (like me for a while) and still look to their dealer as a source of knowledge. Scary, huh?

Flyguy said:

Believe me, I have talked to many FJR owners who didn't know it existed (like me for a while) and still look to their dealer as a source of knowledge. Scary, huh?

Click to expand...

aint that the truth !!

my dealer, while competant at the mechanical side of things, has almost zero knowkedge of the many things i have learned here.

and i totally agree with everything that flyguy and others have said about the AE.

i have almost 10,000 trouble free km on my 06, and most of that is in stop start city traffic, commuting to and from work.

just got back from a 2,000 km 2 week trip up the coast, and this bike was flawless on te trip too.

one thing ill add, if you use too much throttle while the clutch is cold, it will shudder. not in the conventional sense either.

after a few shifts, this will go away, and you should get very nice controlled clutch actuation.

i have installed the G2 throttle tube, and done the spring mod, but no PCIII yet.

im happy with the bike as it stands right now.

jason

You forgot to mention all the "oohs" and "aahs" of the people when they ask why you don't have a clutch lever, and that you shift using your index finger and thumb...

And, to really freak out the folks, go from a standing start to highway speed with your left hand on your leg... LOL!!!!

The AE is awesome... go for it! I love it, and would buy it twice again. Much of what is said is true. It is important to note that the shifting system, as mentioned above, does not limit engine power in any way for shifts (i.e. ignition or fuel cuts). Nor does it 'blip' the throttle for downshifts. Its all up to the driver to control the throttle to make the shifts smooth, and when done properly (easy to learn) the shifts are very nice. Low speed is GREAT. Get used to using the rear break to regulate speed though, as mentioned above.

Okay guys, thanks a lot for the many positive comments.

Seems like Yamaha is just rebadging '06 models for '07, evidenced by having the same color, so no difference between the 2. Seems like I can buy either an '07A or '06AE for about the same dough. Will start making some serious offers tomorrow. Only bad luck is that all available are a ton of miles away. Will have to figure shipping into the equation and see how things look. If too expensive, I decided the burned pink color < ha ha> is not a deal breaker. Don't want to wait until next year to have a bike. Plan to take several mini-tours this fall, when temps start dipping below 100s. Only condition to get an AE is it has to be cheaper.

Will keep you posted gang. And in case you hear of any special deal, give me a buzz. I live in El Paso, TX, by the way. Take care.

JC

I have an '06AE with about 7k on it, and I was thinking about this today. While I like down-shifting sans clutch, I do not like the care and feeding the AE needs at launch. In other words, I can either be quick or smooth with an AE, but I can be both with a standard clutch.

I vote for the standard clutch. The AE does operate (very well) as advertised.

Dick Frederick

Dickf said:

I can either be quick or smooth with an AE, but I can be both with a standard clutch.Dick Frederick

Click to expand...

I can be pretty quick AND smooth with my AS [AE]. For a fast and smooth start from rest, don't just snap the throttle open, wind it slowly for the first bit until the clutch starts to bite, then open it quickly. You'll lose a bit of that initial snap acceleration, but that's what smooth needs. It requires learning to do it perfectly, but then so does a conventional clutch.

Dickf said:

I vote for the standard clutch. The AE does operate (very well) as advertised.Dick Frederick

Click to expand...

All other things being equal, I would go with the standard clutch. But then, I wouldn't be motorcycling at all. What with a little finger that is arthritic and was causing considerable pain when operating the clutch, and a wrist that was showing signs of carpal tunnel syndrome in traffic, riding was becoming impossible. Now I get no symptoms of either. So, if you have any problems with that left hand (or, for that matter, the left foot), Yamaha's electric change will help immensely.