Starter : Rebuild, buy salvaged, or buy new

[wfooshee]

To me, solenoids handle large ampere loads like in the starter circuit and a relay carries small amounts. A solenoid is needed either on the starter or near the battery. Older Fords have a big old solenoid next to the battery along the positive cable going to the starter, just like the FJR. Maybe the wording is different on motorcycles?

A solenoid is not "a big relay," a solenoid is a device that uses an electromagnet to perform a mechanical action (like moving the starter's drive gear into the flywheel of a car.) It's really just an electric motor with limits to its movement. Power locks work by solenoids. Some cars had solenoids to move the air baffles around under the dash (others use vacuum motors.)

A relay is any switch that's operated by an electromagnet. There's no mechanical action, just the switch. The circuit being switched generally has a higher load than the circuit on the coil, so dangerous amps or volts don't have to approach the operator.

To the question about testing the starter relay, turn the key on and touch a screwdriver across the big terminals of the starter relay momentarily. If the starter kicks, then the starter works OK and the relay is bad. (The screwdriver is completing the circuit that the relay is supposed to complete.) If there's still no starter action then you're looking at either a bad starter or a wiring problem to the starter, or as said a couple times, bad battery (which I think you said you'd ruled out.)

 

[JR'SFJR]

Then go to the parts counter and ask for a Ford starter relay......eh? They are sold as starter solenoids that are located along the + cable next to the battery . Your definition may be correct, but in world of cars.... I did this for a living.

 

[RadioHowie]

Then go to the parts counter and ask for a Ford starter relay......eh? They are sold as starter solenoids that are located along the + cable next to the battery . Your definition may be correct, but in world of cars.... I did this for a living.

Well, then...take it to a car forum!

 

[majicmaker]

Well, then...take it to a car forum!

Bazinga! :lol:

 

[JR'SFJR]

Thanks. Will do!!It would be interesting to take the FJR starter "relay" apart. Wish I had a junk one. The solenoid example I used, has two bolts for the cables, a washer inside that makes contact with the two bolts when the plunger inside the electromagnet is pulled up to close the contacts. That plunger movement would be the same application that operates power door locks solenoids or a solenoid starter drive engagement.

 

[NC Ryder]

To the question about testing the starter relay, turn the key on and touch a screwdriver across the big terminals of the starter relay momentarily. If the starter kicks, then the starter works OK and the relay is bad. (The screwdriver is completing the circuit that the relay is supposed to complete.) If there's still no starter action then you're looking at either a bad starter or a wiring problem to the starter, or as said a couple times, bad battery (which I think you said you'd ruled out.)

That helped, thanks. I did that and the starter initially cranks and then the speedo / odo reset like when it does when the key is initially turned on. I attempted this 3-4 times and never got the bike to fire, only the starter to do an initial crank then the speedo / odo reset. So it seems like the starter is turning, but should I expect the bike to turn over? In other words, is that an indication that not only is the relay bad but the starter is not turning very easily and needs a rebuild / replace as well?

 

[RadioHowie]

To the question about testing the starter relay, turn the key on and touch a screwdriver across the big terminals of the starter relay momentarily. If the starter kicks, then the starter works OK and the relay is bad. (The screwdriver is completing the circuit that the relay is supposed to complete.) If there's still no starter action then you're looking at either a bad starter or a wiring problem to the starter, or as said a couple times, bad battery (which I think you said you'd ruled out.)

That helped, thanks. I did that and the starter initially cranks and then the speedo / odo reset like when it does when the key is initially turned on. I attempted this 3-4 times and never got the bike to fire, only the starter to do an initial crank then the speedo / odo reset. So it seems like the starter is turning, but should I expect the bike to turn over? In other words, is that an indication that not only is the relay bad but the starter is not turning very easily and needs a rebuild / replace as well?

Well, you effectively bypassed the starter relay as the problem. The trip/clock reset on start pretty much points the fickle finger of fate at your battery.

Are you SURE your battery is okay? I mean, like trust your children's lives to your battery, okay???

 

[NC Ryder]

Well, you effectively bypassed the starter relay as the problem. The trip/clock reset on start pretty much points the fickle finger of fate at your battery.

Are you SURE your battery is okay? I mean, like trust your children's lives to your battery, okay???

If I had children I might

The speedo / odo reset I've never seen before, only when I attempt to jump the relay with the screwdriver. Up to this point It would either fire or click. Just today I took a DC volt meter and verified across the positive and negative terminals a 13.2V reading which I believe is the norm. Even putting my battery tender on it just in case shows it is green and charged (no charging taking place). Battery is only 6 months old, when I started seeing signs of the 'clicking' early on it was my first attempted 'fix'. Given all the above, is there something else you would recommend testing to completely rule it out?

I guess I was hoping that the speedo / odo reset in this scenario was related to the unusual circumstance of using a screwdriver to complete a circuit....

 

[SkooterG]

I guess I was hoping that the speedo / odo reset in this scenario was related to the unusual circumstance of using a screwdriver to complete a circuit....

I doubt it. The reset comes from a low voltage condition. Usually that low voltage condition is the result of a bad, or marginal battery. But it can also be caused by a bad starter that is drawing too many amps and lowering voltage. I am starting to suspect your starter.

 

[RadioHowie]

Yeah, what SkooterG said, a bad starter pulling too many amps would definitely cause a trip-odo/clock reset, BUT, and I think Skoot would agree, while testing the amperage draw first would eliminate a starter problem, the quickest test would be to swap the battery with a known good unit. That would be the first thing I would eliminate...only because I'd be praying the whole time the starter was good, based on the BITCH JOB it is to replace.

 

[kaitsdad]

Yeah, what SkooterG said, a bad starter pulling too many amps would definitely cause a trip-odo/clock reset, BUT, and I think Skoot would agree, while testing the amperage draw first would eliminate a starter problem, the quickest test would be to swap the battery with a known good unit. That would be the first thing I would eliminate...only because I'd be praying the whole time the starter was good, based on the BITCH JOB it is to replace.

Replacing the starter is easy once you remove the engine from the frame. Nuttin' to it. :blink:

 

[NC Ryder]

Yeah, what SkooterG said, a bad starter pulling too many amps would definitely cause a trip-odo/clock reset, BUT, and I think Skoot would agree, while testing the amperage draw first would eliminate a starter problem, the quickest test would be to swap the battery with a known good unit. That would be the first thing I would eliminate...only because I'd be praying the whole time the starter was good, based on the BITCH JOB it is to replace.

Well, to get to the relay required pulling almost all the plastics off which was a bit of fun with the front cowl removal. Speaking of, one of the 4 front cowl attachment bolts disappeared into the netherworld - recommendations on a good place for a replacement? Is it a Lowes type or do I have to get a Yammy one?...

In the interest of time, and future, I went ahead and ordered the starter recommended by RaYzerman19 (thanks!). I'll try the relay and see if that fixes it, but in the offhand chance the starter is also going south I have some time next week to actually dig into it. I just don't get how a touring bike with 20k miles is having problems like this already....

And in the meantime, outside of the battery testing I've already done and listed above, how else would you verify it outside of buying another one?

 

[RadioHowie]

And in the meantime, outside of the battery testing I've already done and listed above, how else would you verify it outside of buying another one?

Go with me on this one...beg, borrow or steal a DVM than can measure AMPs in the 100 to 150 amp range. Get yourself a car battery. Attach the FJR's battery cables to the car battery. Wire up the DVM inline between the cable positive and the battery positive, switch the DVM to read AMPS and hit the starter button. Read how many amps your starting is pulling. 45 amps is normal...85 amps would be max. Any more than that and you have a bad starter. Full Stop!

Why use a car battery? Typically a car battery has PLENTY of cranking reserve and will power the test you need to conduct. The FJR battery, even at its best, is only marginally capable of doing its intended job. Comes with the territory.

 

[wfooshee]

The amperage test is the definitive answer for this. You HAVE to know if it's drawing more than the maximum reasonable 80 or 85 amps. Nothing else can cause that much draw except the starter itself.

If it draws 60 amps, or 75, or even 85, then the starter is perfectly usable and your problem is elsewhere. But your symptoms say, "STARTER!!!!!!"

This is absolutely something you want to do before the teardown required to access the starter. Actually replacing the starter and finding it was OK would lead you to searching for a high cliff or bridge to jump off of. This is what your bike looks like when you can get to the starter:

 

[NC Ryder]

The amperage test is the definitive answer for this. You HAVE to know if it's drawing more than the maximum reasonable 80 or 85 amps. Nothing else can cause that much draw except the starter itself.[/img]

OK, will do. I'll plug in the new relay when it gets here (cause it appears to be bad from my tests)then hook up a battery (I've got a Marine battery that I can use)- and then try to find an ampmeter that checks DC (have only come across AC recently) levels before I tear it down. That picture looks pretty darn intimidating, so hopefully it won't come to that (but I am doubting it given all I am reading... )

Side question: If I do have to tear it down to that level to get to the starter, what other maintenance should I look into while I'm that deep into it?

 

[RadioHowie]

Since you're that far along, new rings, big end bearings, valve job (not adjust, valve re-grind), transmission overhaul, just to name a few.

I KID...I KID!!!

 

[RaYzerman19]

Another thing you can do is take the battery to a local shop that can do a load test...... should your marine battery solve the problem.

 

[Donal]

What you will need for measuring the starter current is something like this (click here). It's a clip-on ammeter that uses a standard DMM for the display (saves a few $$).

Good luck with it.

Don

 

[NC Ryder]

OK, now I'm confused....

While I'm waiting on the parts I swapped out the amp meter I had for this one that reads DC amperage up to 400Amps. I then went back and measured the following and got more steady / accurate readings.

Scenario 1 using current MC battery:

Reading at Battery at rest: 12.3 Volts

Attempting to start, reading on wire from battery to relay: ~31 Amps

Attempting to start, reading on wire from relay to starter: ~31 Amps

Result: Click click click on relay, no starter movement

Scenario 2 using Marine Battery (Everstart DC-850N), starter connections moved to Marine battery, Power Commander remains on MC battery as it will not reach:

Reading at Battery at rest: 12.46 Volts

Attempting to start, reading on wire from battery to relay: ~31 Amps

Attempting to start, reading on wire from relay to starter: ~31 Amps

Result: Fast starter movement, but will not fire even after repeated attempts.

So I don't get it..... the voltage on the 2 batteries looks roughly equal. The amperage being pulled by the starter in both instances looks to be the same and in the appropriate low range for a starter pulling. But in scenario one it will not even turn the starter and in the second it won't fire even with the starter cranking.... I was expecting either both scenarios to die at the relay or if the starter did turn over to actually get the bike fired?

Please advise of thoughts or what else to test - now I don't have a clue as to whether its battery, relay, or starter or some combination based on this...

Thanks

 

[SkooterG]

Looks like your battery is bad to me. Hence why starter readings are normal and the other battery is turning over starter. But your bad battery isn't good enough to run anything to actually get the bike running.