Starter : Rebuild, buy salvaged, or buy new

[NC Ryder]

Looks like your battery is bad to me. Hence why starter readings are normal and the other battery is turning over starter. But your bad battery isn't good enough to run anything to actually get the bike running.

Ergh.... I just bought that this year....

Any ideas why with the marine battery it's not firing now? Prior to these issues she was running fine, it doesn't smell flooded, but it doesn't even sound like it's trying to fire now. I replaced the plugs about 3 months ago, so they should be good. Assuming it should fire off the marine battery at this point, what would be preventing this now? If it should run with the marine battery at least I'd like to get the bike running as is then swap parts in and make sure it continues to.... Did I somehow introduce another problem?

 

[RadioHowie]

Sounds like a bad battery to me, too.

If you simply "hot wired" the marine battery to the starter relay, but left the bike's main +/- hooked up to the bike's battery, it could simply be that the bike battery doesn't have enough guts left to run the ECU, fuel pump, injectors, etc.

In other words, enough voltage to read 12.xxV, but not enough reserve amperage to run the bike, even if another battery is running the starter.

Take the +/- cables off the bike battery, hook em up to your marine battery and give that a shot. Just pretend that your bike battery is toast, and get the bike running off the marine battery.

The good news is, assuming you wired up your amp-probe correctly, it looks like your starter is fine. 31 amps full-load test is excellent.

However...(gawd I hate howevers) this bothers me...

Scenario 1 using current MC battery:Reading at Battery at rest: 12.3 Volts

Attempting to start, reading on wire from battery to relay: ~31 Amps

Attempting to start, reading on wire from relay to starter: ~31 Amps

Result: Click click click on relay, no starter movement

If the starter doesn't run on Scenario 1, where is this 31 amp draw coming from???

Back to my suggestion above...remove the bike battery completely from the equation. Hook up the +/- leads to the marine battery and crank that bitch up. Please give this a shot. Oh, and to eliminate ANY over-fuel issues from being dicked with so much, when you do attempt your next "crank" session, do it with the throttle held wide open to assist in a possible flooded situation. Just hold the throttle WFO, crank, and hold till the bike starts up. Let off the throttle and let the bike warm up to four bars on the temp gauge before shutting down.

Keep at it...you'll get this worked out, without dealer intervention.

 

[NC Ryder]

If the starter doesn't run on Scenario 1, where is this 31 amp draw coming from???

I have no idea, that's what has me scratching my head as well

Back to my suggestion above...remove the bike battery completely from the equation. Hook up the +/- leads to the marine battery and crank that bitch up. Please give this a shot. Oh, and to eliminate ANY over-fuel issues from being dicked with so much, when you do attempt your next "crank" session, do it with the throttle held wide open to assist in a possible flooded situation. Just hold the throttle WFO, crank, and hold till the bike starts up. Let off the throttle and let the bike warm up to four bars on the temp gauge before shutting down.

Sorry, I probably wasn't as clear in my prior post as I needed to be. The main positive and negative are now off the MC battery and connected to the Marine battery. The starter relay is still wired up as normal, so my scneario 2 is effectively swapping out the MC battery for the marine one. The only thing sitting on the MC battery is the Power Commander (and it's getting power as well).

In regards to the throttle wide open and cranking, I attempted that now (2-3 times) with each attempt at about 15 seconds and not even a spark of it firing. I was afraid of letting it crank longer than that, hurting the starter or something else. How long can I safely let it crank without firing and how long to wait in between attempts?

As an aside, I do hear the whine of the fuel pump run for a couple seconds when the key is turned on. I've only removed the cowling sections on the front of the bike, nothing under the tank or seat (like knocking an ECU connection). No error codes on the display.

Thanks for the help, much appreciated.

 

[NC Ryder]

Addtl update:

- Bike on center stand, in neutral, kick stand up

- Throttle Wide Open, pulled front brake

- Turned key, waited for full pump to stop

- Hit the ignition and held

- Around 30-40 seconds I get a error code of SH__35 popping up (but not before)

- Continued cranking for another 40 seconds or so

- Never attempted to fire, some gas smell but not excessive

Did this twice, similar results. From reading SH_ _35 - Start switch signal is abnormal - signal is received from start switch while vehicle is driven. Not sure how that applies here, especially since I don't see it without cranking for 40 seconds or so

Again, plugs changed within past 4-5 months and less than 2-3k on them. Bike was runing last week without a problem before these start issues started occuring. Half tank of gas. Nothing installed on the right handlebar lately (past 8 months)

Hope that helps, ideas appreciated.....

 

[Donal]

What you are experiencing now is fairly common after a couple of failed starts or shutting the bike off before it has time to warm up properly. The 'usual' cure is to attempt to start the engine (on the marine battery), holding the throttle wide open, in 3-5 second bursts to be kind to the starter.

The good news is your starter motor appears to be OK :clapping:

Don

 

[NC Ryder]

I'll keep trying in the meantime, thanks.

When I was at the gym I thought to add one more thing - I have note taken the front cowl completely off, just removed the 4 bolts holding it on and resting the nose on the front fender. Could I have loosened / disconnected some critical wiring doing that?

And when I continue to attempt to start it WTO, should I or should I not be smelling gasoline or seeing / feeling exhaust? Cause right now I really am not even after holding the starter for over a minute...

 

[mcatrophy]

... I get a error code of SH__35 popping up...

To add to the confusion, and of no help at all, I had the SH__35 code appearing on my '06 (posted here), otherwise the bike was running perfectly. To cut a long saga short, its occurrence became more and more frequent until it was displayed almost all the time.

My dealer tried to find what was wrong, spent several days working on it. In the end I took the bike away to go on a tour, still displaying the SH__35. Over that week, it gradually improved, showing less and less often, and eventually stopped altogether.

My advice would be to take no notice whatsoever of it until your starting issue is resolved.

 

[wfooshee]

Here's a thought:

The ignition switch is a double-pole switch. There are two heavier-gauge wires that form one switched circuit, and two smaller wires that form another. If that smaller circuit is not made, then the bike will do exactly what you describe: crank and crank and crank, no fire.

To test, see if you can reach the blue-with-green-stripe and black-with-red-stripe wires at the ignition switch and connect them together. Just as an ignition switch test. If the bike fires with those wires connected then your problem is in the switch, although the switch problem is generally with the other pair, which carries the heavier current load.

 

[RadioHowie]

Good thought, Foosh!

 

[NC Ryder]

Thanks again to all for the help. I'll be out all weekend but will be continuing to work on this next week when I get back. Hopefully we can at least get the bike fired to get a baseline before the new parts go in...

 

[wfooshee]

Ooh, wait. Another thought, and much easier to check than the ignition switch wiring.

You said the PC-III was getting power. OK, fine. Is its ground wire OK? Power don't do nothing without the other end of the circuit.....

The PC-III gets it power from a line in the connectors it taps into at the fuel rail, but it doesn't get a ground there, it has its own separate ground wire. Without a ground, it doesn't turn on. If it doesn't turn on, guess what happens? Crank crank crank crank crank crank, no fire.

 

[NC Ryder]

Ooh, wait. Another thought, and much easier to check than the ignition switch wiring.

Here's what I see this morning:

Power Commander 3:

PC3 is getting power, startup LED light movements appear correct at initial turn of the key and while hitting the starter button. All original grounds are still on the MC battery (again, only the main positive and negative cables were transferred to the marine battery).I'm going to call dynojet when they open to confirm, but in the meantime it initially looks good.

Ignition Swith wiring:

On the bottom of ignition switch, front left side (looking from the seat towards the console) is where I see a bundle of wires come out of the switch. I cut the shielding to see the wired inside and I see 5. Three of them are larger guage while the remaining 2 are smaller diameter. Colors appear different than what you mentioned below, would apprecite any thoughts you have prior to cutting into the wrong set.

1) White (larger guage)

2) Red (larger guage)

3) Brown with blue stripe (larger guage)

4) Blue with black stripe (smaller guage)

5) Blue with yellow stripe (smaller guage)

 

[wfooshee]

Somewhere down from there is a connector, and the wires change color at the connector. Follow the wires to that connector and just unplug it. There should be 2 connectors, actually, one for each pair of wires. Unplug the connector for the small wires (I think it's a red connector) and just jumper the plug that goes into the bike.

Alternatively, stick a pin through each of those smaller wires and touch the pins together and see if the bike fires. The pins would be less destructive than cutting any wires.

 

[NC Ryder]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Following that wire it quick disappears under the frame and I can feel it going under the heat shield where the throttle bodies are under the tank. To get to any connector downstream will require pulling the tank to get to it. At this stage I'm getting a bit more pressed for time so I'll need to evaluate how much further I can spend troubleshooting this I'll dig a bit further and see what I can do, thanks again for the help.

 

[wfooshee]

How long does it take to stick a pin through a wire? :lol:

 

[NC Ryder]

How long does it take to stick a pin through a wire? :lol:

Ah, then I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the blue-with-green-stripe and black-with-red-stripe wires down by the connector, but you are referring to the blue with black stripe and blue with yellow stripe coming right out of the ignition switch. Let me know if that's not correct and I'll try that out first thing tomorrow.

 

[wfooshee]

Those are the same circuit, the two smaller-gauge wires. According to my diagram, they actually change color the other side of that connector, to the colors I stated earlier. The colors you stated are between that connector and the switch, so it's the same wires.

 

[NC Ryder]

Those are the same circuit, the two smaller-gauge wires. According to my diagram, they actually change color the other side of that connector, to the colors I stated earlier. The colors you stated are between that connector and the switch, so it's the same wires.

Here's what I did:

First attempt: Accidently speared through the blue with yellow also hitting the white wire behind. Slight twerp sound, puff of smoke. Bike still sounded the same when I turned the key so I assumed no permanent damage.

Second attempt: Speared just the two smaller guage blue wires, turned the ignition on and waited for the pump to stop, hit the starter and the same crank only (no fire).

Was a good thought, thanks. I had also called the Power Commander support and verified that with the LED lights I'm seeing the ground on the PC3 should be ok.

So any additional thoughts? Am I at a dealer intervention?

 

[wfooshee]

I don't know what the white wire is. I see no white wire at the key switch. But yeah, I'm running out of things to try.

 

[NC Ryder]

But yeah, I'm running out of things to try.

No issues, thanks for the help thusfar. I'll haul it in and see what the issue is. When it's figured out I'll post it up here for others to learn from