2007 FJR1300A - the Lump (aka engine) is dying

[JamesK]

Back in September I posted up a thread asking for help with intermittent stalling issues at low RPMs. I'd done most of the common tests and finally found that disconnecting the PCIII seemed to help reduce the frequency of the idle stalling.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/159889-2007-fjr1300a-intermittently-stalling-at-idle-or-throttle-release/

Unfortunately the stalling did not disappear all together and the engine sometimes sounds/feels a bit strange. So today I did a compression test, which frankly I was quite hesitant to do for fear of finding exactly what the compression test showed

. Whilst there is a bit of oil (a puddle the size of a quarter) dripping out of the cranshaft breather hose after some harder running the bike only uses a little more oil now than before. For example after around 120k miles (I think) I would need to add around 200-300 ml of oil between oil changes (typically around 4,500 miles), now its about double that, as in twice during the same 4,500 mile oil change interval.

My Compression Readings (engine hot) after a few separate attempts are:

Cyl #1: 150 psi
Cyl #2: 100 psi

Cyl #3: 170 psi
Cyl #4: 185 psi

According to the FSM the Compression Ranges are (Page 2-2):
Standard: 228 psi
Min: 198 psi
Max: 255 psi

I've not done a Leak Down Test, but given the above Compression readings and the mileage on the engine I am not sure that's really going to tell me anything more or will it?

So at 211,000 miles the lump is well on it's way to FJR Heaven. I guess I can hardly complain she's been running great for over 200k and the valves have never been out of spec, but now I'm up for another engine, if I can find one, being out here in Japan where FJRs are not nearly as common as they are in many other countries.

I have some questions which I hope you guys can help answer:

1. How long does this engine still have, I mean can it run like this for some time still or will it just stop suddenly tomorrow? I have a 3,500 mile trip planned starting next Sunday so given that the bike is running can I expect it to make the trip?

2. I know that the 2006-2008 engines are compatible, but what about 2009-2012? The Gen2.5 FJR where very similar to the Gen2 so does anyone know if an engine from an 2009-2012 will work in a 2007 FJR as long as it's not an AE motor?

3. I am running a UNI high-flow air filter so didn't bother removing it for the test, but again given the low readings I really don't think this will make enough difference or will it?

4. Why would disconnecting the PCIII make the idle stalling less of a problem?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Twigg]

A leakdown test will tell you where the compression is escaping. I have no idea how complex it is to refurb the FJR engine, because I've never done one, but a cylinder head rebuild should be cheaper and easier than a full rebuild.

Generally it is cheaper to source a good second-hand engine, but if you go for a rebuild you will at least end up with a basically new motor.

 

[1maxman]

Before you condemn your engine try using Ring Free (should be available at your nearest Yamaha dealer). I have revived a couple of Honduh engines that were suffering compression loss. You can perform a "shock" treatment for starters then change the oil and then do a maintenance or another shock treatment. On one bike I did three "shock" treatments and it improved it greatly. On the other it improved after one. They now do maintenance treatments every few tanks and they're still running great. This is fairly cheap, one bottle treats several tanks and a couple oil changes are inexpensive compared to rebuilding or replacing the power plant

 

[101stpathfinder]

So sorry to hear this JamesK. Sounds like we both have loyalty issues with giving up on our bikes. I threw $2k into mine this last month when I probably should

have just let her RIP. Mine is at 207k and making me second guess the future plans I had for her. I hope you get your issues sorted out alright (And for a minimal

cost of time and money)

 

[Hornet Pilot]

James, re the impact of the PC III on the engine idling. Lots of things can impact idle performance however I did have the exact same thing happen to my '05 about a year ago. I installed a PC III shortly after buying the bike new in '05 and it worked great until last year. Long story short, after reverting back to the non-PC III configuration the bike idled just fine. I sent the PC III back to the Mfgr. and they confirmed it had indeed failed. They sent me a new one at a reduced cost and it has been working great for another 25K miles so far. So I guess I'm saying that yes, the PC III can cause your idling problems if it is failing or has failed.

Nick

 

[RossKean]

James

With 124000 miles on my bike, I probably should check compression and leakdown. (Like you, I don't think I really want to know the answer if its bad.) As it was suggested, a Ringfree enema might be a good idea. Won't hurt anything and might fix things up for you. Similarly, running some Seafoam for a few tanks might help if valves are carboned up. While I am not a big proponent of regular additive use, I would probably at least try these before I condemned the motor.

Regarding your upcoming trip - do it! I seriously doubt that its going to go from low compression to dead in a few thousand miles.

AFAIK, any of the non-AE engines from '06 to '12 should work. (Somebody will correct me if I am wrong!)

Don't think the air filter is going to make any difference in the compression result. Out of curiosity, have you had the throttle bodies out to be cleaned/examined - wondering how they look after many miles with the Uni filter compared to the OEM. I have seen some ugly TB with the regular filter and wonder whether the Uni is better or worse. (If worse, it might be a contributing factor to the apparent engine wear, although its too late to change anything now.)

I wish you lots of luck on this and would like to know what the investigation reveals.

Totally off topic: While I was riding and camping in Newfoundland this past August, I met a gentleman who apparently knows you quite well. (Unless there are other FJR owners in Japan with 200,000+ miles on their bike) Forgive me if I mis-remember the name but does Cyril ring a bell? We had a pretty good chat around a campfire at one of the provincial parks.

 

[JamesK]

Before you condemn your engine try using Ring Free (should be available at your nearest Yamaha dealer). I have revived a couple of Honduh engines that were suffering compression loss. You can perform a "shock" treatment for starters then change the oil and then do a maintenance or another shock treatment. On one bike I did three "shock" treatments and it improved it greatly. On the other it improved after one. They now do maintenance treatments every few tanks and they're still running great. This is fairly cheap, one bottle treats several tanks and a couple oil changes are inexpensive compared to rebuilding or replacing the power plant

Thanks for the suggestions 1maxman, I've been periodically using Seafoam but will also try to get my hands on some RingFree and try that too.

 

[JamesK]

So sorry to hear this JamesK. Sounds like we both have loyalty issues with giving up on our bikes. I threw $2k into mine this last month when I probably should have just let her RIP. Mine is at 207k and making me second guess the future plans I had for her. I hope you get your issues sorted out alright (And for a minimalcost of time and money)

Thanks for the comments Tony, I think it's getting time to start thinking of an upgrade for the workhorse bike. One of these days I'll get a new liquid cooled R1200GS ADV bike, once I can figure out how to pay for the damn thing.

I really want to keep the FJR in the stable though for occasional use, and maybe in that mode the old girl will keep running without major work/expenses...

 

[JamesK]

James
With 124000 miles on my bike, I probably should check compression and leakdown. (Like you, I don't think I really want to know the answer if its bad.) As it was suggested, a Ringfree enema might be a good idea. Won't hurt anything and might fix things up for you. Similarly, running some Seafoam for a few tanks might help if valves are carboned up. While I am not a big proponent of regular additive use, I would probably at least try these before I condemned the motor.

Regarding your upcoming trip - do it! I seriously doubt that its going to go from low compression to dead in a few thousand miles.

AFAIK, any of the non-AE engines from '06 to '12 should work. (Somebody will correct me if I am wrong!)

Don't think the air filter is going to make any difference in the compression result. Out of curiosity, have you had the throttle bodies out to be cleaned/examined - wondering how they look after many miles with the Uni filter compared to the OEM. I have seen some ugly TB with the regular filter and wonder whether the Uni is better or worse. (If worse, it might be a contributing factor to the apparent engine wear, although its too late to change anything now.)

I wish you lots of luck on this and would like to know what the investigation reveals.

Totally off topic: While I was riding and camping in Newfoundland this past August, I met a gentleman who apparently knows you quite well. (Unless there are other FJR owners in Japan with 200,000+ miles on their bike) Forgive me if I mis-remember the name but does Cyril ring a bell? We had a pretty good chat around a campfire at one of the provincial parks.

Thanks Ross, I took think the 09-12 A engines should plug straight in, I really hope some others could confirm as this would help to expand the my search options.

Thanks for letting me know that you met Cyril, amazing how small this world can be. Cyril is the guy who got me totally hooked on bikes, back in Aug 2005, all it took was one day trip out into the mountains

 

[JamesK]

James, re the impact of the PC III on the engine idling. Lots of things can impact idle performance however I did have the exact same thing happen to my '05 about a year ago. I installed a PC III shortly after buying the bike new in '05 and it worked great until last year. Long story short, after reverting back to the non-PC III configuration the bike idled just fine. I sent the PC III back to the Mfgr. and they confirmed it had indeed failed. They sent me a new one at a reduced cost and it has been working great for another 25K miles so far. So I guess I'm saying that yes, the PC III can cause your idling problems if it is failing or has failed.
Nick

Nick thanks for that info, that makes me feel a bit better knowing that I didn't waste money replacing the Powercommander, I bought a PCV to as a replacement, but it has not arrived yet...

 

[someguy]

i hope the ring free gives her a second wind...

i'm always interested in terminal engine stories, i wish we could start a thread and catalogue them... lots to learn i'm sure

If you are willing, could you comment on the following (and any other areas you find important)

1. How long have you owned the bike, mileage when acquired.

2. best guess, what is your rev style (some ride hard, some ride easy)

3. what are your service intervals (some are very very anal, some just ride)

4. what oil are you using? have you used?

5. what oil filter are you using? have used?

6. other comments

thanks!

and for those smarter than I, (pretty much everyone) please add any questions that are important for a general understanding of the operational life of this engine.

 

[1maxman]

James, be sure to change your oil after you do the "shock" treatment! The ring free will cause any carbon and oil build up to be removed from the rings, pistons and valves and will end up in the oil pan. The times I have done it I have done the oil changes right after the treatment and a couple weeks down the road. I don't know if that helped clear the engine of all the debris but never had any trouble after. Good luck, hope this cheap fix helps, hate to see a great Yamaha power mill meet its maker.

 

[bhendron]

I'm just going to throw this out there... did you reconnect the O2 sensor when you removed your PCIII?

 

[supertankerm60a3]

Here is the bottom line: Power Commanders and every other "power boosting" addon device make their living lying to your computer to trick it into changing your mixtures. That is why you need to disconnect the oxygen sensor, the computer will not see what it is expecting and go default, often ignoring the sensors the device is spoofing. Did you ever really need more power in such a way that downshifting could not do the job?

After having said all that, the PC is not the reason your compression is so low. The compression drop is the main problem and can be traced to three places.

1. Valves. When was the last time they were checked or adjusted? The gap tends to get smaller until it hits zero then the valves do not close completely and you lose compression.

IF (and only if) they are not burned a valve gap adjustment will fix it. If they ARE burned, then a full valve job (remove and grind) is needed.

2. Head gasket. Your head gasket may be leaking and you are losing compression there. This is pretty much a straight up fix.

3. Rings. Sticking or broken. Maybe some carbon cleaner will fix it but IMHO not likely. Deepest engine teardown needed here because you have to go in through the bottom

and take out the whole gear train to get to the crank

 

[RadioHowie]

3. Rings. Sticking or broken. Maybe some carbon cleaner will fix it but IMHO not likely. Deepest engine teardown needed here because you have to go in through the bottomand take out the whole gear train to get to the crank

I'm not sure that's completely correct, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "the whole gear train to get to the crank." If you mean the transmission gear train, it doesn't look like you'd even need to touch it.

You DO have to go through the bottom to unbolt the rods from the crank, but looking at wfooshee's upside-down motor pic, those big-end bearing cap bolts should be easy to get to to slide the piston/rod assemblies "up and out" once the head's removed...and of course, re-timing the cams will be a "snap" in that state of dis-assembly.

 

[JamesK]

i hope the ring free gives her a second wind...

i'm always interested in terminal engine stories, i wish we could start a thread and catalogue them... lots to learn i'm sure

If you are willing, could you comment on the following (and any other areas you find important)

1. How long have you owned the bike, mileage when acquired. - purchased new, with zero miles, I did the Motoman break in.

2. best guess, what is your rev style (some ride hard, some ride easy) - I ride pretty hard, but not too abusive, e.g. not bouncing off the rev limiter on a regular basis

3. what are your service intervals (some are very very anal, some just ride) - oil changes b/w 4,500-5,000 miles, always change the oil filter too. Also engine oil flush with products like Seafoam or similar approx every 3 or 4th oil change.

4. what oil are you using? have you used? - have been running 100% full synthetic oil from around 4,000 miles on the ODO. Typically add 1/2 bottle of PFTE additive, in my case Nulon E20. Synth oil used varied depending on availability and/or cost, in the US, I generally used bike specific Amsoil; in Japan I've been running Castrol EDGE RS 10W-50 (car oil). Always adding a 1/2 bottle of Nulon E20 at every oil change.

5. what oil filter are you using? have used? - have always used the Purolator Pure One PL1642 oil filter.

6. other comments - I will be doing a leak down test after I return from my upcoming trip, and will try the Ring Free shock treatment. The Valve Adjustment check is due in a few more thousand miles, however, this engine has Always (last nearly 200k miles) been in spec so I find it hard to believe the valves would now suddenly go way out of spec in the last 20k miles.

7. New CCT (with the blue dot) installed at around 60k miles, even though there was no distinguishable/significant chain slap noise.

thanks!

and for those smarter than I, (pretty much everyone) please add any questions that are important for a general understanding of the operational life of this engine.

Pls see my comments above in blue

 

[JamesK]

I'm just going to throw this out there... did you reconnect the O2 sensor when you removed your PCIII?

I originally disconnected the O2 Sensor per instructions, however, about a year later, I followed HaulinAsh's suggestion to reconnect the O2 Sensor to obtain better fuel MPG during stead/slab riding. The bike has been running with the PCIII and O2 Sensor connected for the past 180k plus miles.

Yes, the O2 Sensor remained connected once the PCIII was removed. I have now replaced the O2 Sensor with an O2 Eliminator Dongle.

 

[JamesK]

Here is the bottom line: Power Commanders and every other "power boosting" addon device make their living lying to your computer to trick it into changing your mixtures. That is why you need to disconnect the oxygen sensor, the computer will not see what it is expecting and go default, often ignoring the sensors the device is spoofing. Did you ever really need more power in such a way that downshifting could not do the job?
After having said all that, the PC is not the reason your compression is so low. The compression drop is the main problem and can be traced to three places.

1. Valves. When was the last time they were checked or adjusted? The gap tends to get smaller until it hits zero then the valves do not close completely and you lose compression.

IF (and only if) they are not burned a valve gap adjustment will fix it. If they ARE burned, then a full valve job (remove and grind) is needed.

The Valves where checked around 20k miles ago, and like for the past nearly 200k miles were in spec. Whilst it is possible that something caused them to go out of spec for the first time in over 200k miles I think that's a fairly low probability scenario.

2. Head gasket. Your head gasket may be leaking and you are losing compression there. This is pretty much a straight up fix.

This is possible but there is no oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil, so would have to be some place else...

3. Rings. Sticking or broken. Maybe some carbon cleaner will fix it but IMHO not likely. Deepest engine teardown needed here because you have to go in through the bottom

and take out the whole gear train to get to the crank

I'll be doing the Ring Free Shock Treatment and leak down test after I return from my trip, so will see what happens.

For a younger engine, all or at least the first two options are a nobrainer. My engine has 211,000 miles on it, so #3 is really not the optimal solution, since unlike Walt, I don't have the skills to tear down my (and reassemble) engine in the shed so would need to pay a pro and by the time I finish replacing all the worn out parts it will be really damn expensive.

 

[RossKean]

I agree with you. A complete teardown and rebuild (even without parts) will cost in excess of the amount you might pay for a decent low-mileage used engine (if done by a professional shop). It may be different in Japan in terms of what a new(ish) engine would cost but I also suspect that labor rates are going to be pretty high.