2007 Stumbling on acceleration

[teerex51]

Dealers can only really do what Yamaha tells them to do. Enough people need to report the problem and frustration to get Yamaha off their butts and resolve the problem.

TophogI couldn't agree more, it is extremely frustrating, but I don't think the dealers can do anything.

Well, well check this out.

A local Yammy-affiliated FJR Club here in Northern Italy reported to Mama that some of its members were experiencing poor driveability issues yada, yada in connection with higher-elevation riding.

The Yammy tech. management promptly responded that (and I quote)

1. they had recently been made aware of such problems;

2. following their inspectors' checks at various dealerships they have no way at this time to confirm these anomalies, but they intend to replicate the driving conditions as described by the owners by subjecting test bikes to significant variations of barometric pressure and humidity;

3. the current use of a single sensor is common to other Yammy models and was introduced on the FJR starting with the RP11 model (*) without ever giving rise to such issues as now reported;

4. this sensor reads alternately barometric pressure and intake vacuum, thus ensuring a correct operation of the motor (unquote) :blink:

Say whaat?

Stef

(*) My note: Euro MY2004

 

[tophog]

I called my dealer this morning and explained the surging problem. He was very interested in this but as you can guess hadn't heard about it yet. I indicated it was not only a mechanical issue but a safety/liability issue as well. He was very nice and said he would definately contact Yamaha today and see if he can learn anything. He also recommended I call Yamaha Customer Service and report the problem as a safety problem. I think this is a good idea and may help bring focus to the problem.

1.800.962.7926

I spoke with someone initally that took the basic information then I was transferred to a "Product Specialist" (Julie?) who took more detailed information.

 

[tophog]

Yamaha called me back. I just spoke with Solv Virgil, the west coast technical manager based out of California. We spoke for over 30 minutes regarding this problem. According to him Yamaha U.S. has not heard of this problem!? He said people need to report it to their dealers and ensure the dealers report it to Yamaha.

Solv said they would have my local dealer pickup my bike for diagnosis. I indicated I had no desire for the Yamaha or my dealer to use my bike as a guinea pig indefinately and since the dealer was @ 300 ft. elevation I doubted they could reproduce the problem without riding it a few hours into the mountains. I expressed how I highly doubted it was bike-specific as I knew others in Oregon that have the exact problem. I told Solv I would assist in that if a dealer wanted to donate an 07 bike for testing I would be happy to ride it up into the mountains in attempt to reproduce the problem ...and once done they would then have a test speciman.

I mentioned the various Internet forums and how this appears to be an 07 specific problem yet Yamaha was clueless to the problem. I mentioned the FJR group in Italy and quoted the Yamaha mgt. response from Yamaha Europe but Solv said that was Yamaha Europe and that anything over there wouldn't be public knowledge here in the states since the ECM's were different, etc.

Basically Solv indicated he and his tech. team would definately be looking into this problem asap and highly recommended anyone with an 07 experiencing this problem to get bike to dealer and have dealer report it.

I will post up with any new information I learn.

On edit: I forgot to mention Solv indicated they have ridden several 2007 bikes up to Big Bear Lake? in CA which is over 4K feet with zero problems noted on the 2007 bikes. Kind a makes you wonder huh?

 

[teerex51]

<snip> Solv said that was Yamaha Europe and that anything over there wouldn't be public knowledge here in the states since the ECM's were different,<snip>

Tophog, different as they may be...it would appear the ECMs have exactly the same problem on both sides of the Big Water... <_<

Solv indicated they have ridden several 2007 bikes up to Big Bear Lake? in CA which is over 4K feet with zero problems noted on the 2007 bikes. Kind a makes you wonder huh?

Having read the highly-technical contributions I mentioned above (post #53), the Big Bear Lake example does not necessarily contradict your driveability issues. The problem manifests itself when a combination of factors, i.e.: rapid changes in elevation, parameter-update lag in the ECM and drastic fuel cutoff occur simultaneously. There are situations (throttle settings?) in which the ECM effectively updates its baro information and the herky-jerky fails to appear.

OK, I'm way out of my depth here but I can't find a better explanation. Maybe Mama Yama can, the key question is: how long will it take?

Stef

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Yamaha called me back. I just spoke with Solv Virgil, the west coast technical manager based out of California. We spoke for over 30 minutes regarding this problem. According to him Yamaha U.S. has not heard of this problem!?

Well, they must all be in separate builbings there in Cypress? Or, in little cubicles and not allowed to converse with one another? The rider who this thread was initially about has talked with Yamaha Cypress on several occasions (as well as his dealer) and is currently filling out forms to mail back to them. He's also informed them that he's available for deposition.....

Solv said they would have my local dealer pickup my bike for diagnosis. .....I doubted they could reproduce the problem without riding it a few hours into the mountains. I expressed how I highly doubted it was bike-specific as I knew others in Oregon that have the exact problem.

My friend with the 'stumbling on acceleration' 2007 can reproduce the symptom most of the time; but, not completely 100% (due to weather, baro press. diffs?) -- so, it then becomes an "intermittent" (one of the most difficult driveability issues to resolve).

I mentioned the various Internet forums and how this appears to be an 07 specific problem yet Yamaha was clueless to the problem.

Yea, right!

I mentioned the FJR group in Italy and quoted the Yamaha mgt. response from Yamaha Europe but Solv said that was Yamaha Europe and that anything over there wouldn't be public knowledge here in the states since the ECM's were different, etc.

That information, right there, would be valuable to them -- if they were really looking for a solution.....

Basically Solv ..... highly recommended anyone with an 07 experiencing this problem to get bike to dealer and have dealer report it.

True Dat!

I will post up with any new information I learn.

Thanks tophog (and teerex) -- We'll be waiting and watching.

 

[loanarranger]

Following up on Tophog's post above I called the 800 number above and tried to get through to Solv so I could add my experiences to his knowledge base on this issue. I was diverted to Jason in Wisconsin, even though I am in California. I asked to be contacted by Solv but was not promised anything.

Just to update my own experience here with the stumble issue, 99% of the bogging/surging symptoms have been resolved by the installation of a PCIII and G2 FJR Tamer throttle cam. What I am now left with is a related symptom which occurs very seldom. The latest episode was yesterday, ironically on a group ride to Big Bear Lake from Palm Desert, CA. We covered elevations from 300-8500 feet above sea level. The only incident of the entire 5 hour ride came at the end of a 30 mile freeway run at speeds of 70-80 mph. At the end of exit ramp to Beaumont (elev. 2800 ft.), we stopped for a traffic light before making a right turn into the cross street. On the take off into the right turn the bike seemed to stall and then surge immediately as more throttle was applied. No other symptom all day long.

A similar event occurred a week ago in the mountains south of Palm Desert. Again after a long run on the twistys at 2500- 4000 Ft above sea level, at constant 4000-5000 rpm engine speeds, I pulled off to talk with my riding partner. Didn't shut down only sat idling for a couple of minutes before taking off. Again on take off back onto the highway, big stumble followed by huge surge. I actually had to hit the clutch lever and rev the throttle a couple of times to recover because the motor felt for a second as though it had stopped.

I will post any response from my call to Yamaha.

 

[tophog]

Great info. I was about to ask if anyone had installed a PCIII on a 2007 as I wasn't sure if the 2006/2007's were actually the same in terms of the ECM. I'm still confused as I am still thinking their are changes between the 2006 and 2007 models in terms of this problem as it doesn't appear anyone has had this problem on a 2006?

Still, one shouldn't have to buy a PCIII to get the bike to run properly. I'm in Oregon which really doesn't give a rats arse about emissions where I live ...I just want the bike to run like it's suppose to ...at all elevations with no surprising surges, bogs, etc. Not a very difficult thing to want on a $14K motorcycle?

I HOPE you get to talk to Solv. I may have spelled his name incorrectly as I spelled it like it sounded. I just wish he would "solv" my surging problem

Following up on Tophog's post above I called the 800 number above and tried to get through to Solv so I could add my experiences to his knowledge base on this issue. I was diverted to Jason in Wisconsin, even though I am in California. I asked to be contacted by Solv but was not promised anything.
Just to update my own experience here with the stumble issue, 99% of the bogging/surging symptoms have been resolved by the installation of a PCIII and G2 FJR Tamer throttle cam. What I am now left with is a related symptom which occurs very seldom. The latest episode was yesterday, ironically on a group ride to Big Bear Lake from Palm Desert, CA. We covered elevations from 300-8500 feet above sea level. The only incident of the entire 5 hour ride came at the end of a 30 mile freeway run at speeds of 70-80 mph. At the end of exit ramp to Beaumont (elev. 2800 ft.), we stopped for a traffic light before making a right turn into the cross street. On the take off into the right turn the bike seemed to stall and then surge immediately as more throttle was applied. No other symptom all day long.

A similar event occurred a week ago in the mountains south of Palm Desert. Again after a long run on the twistys at 2500- 4000 Ft above sea level, at constant 4000-5000 rpm engine speeds, I pulled off to talk with my riding partner. Didn't shut down only sat idling for a couple of minutes before taking off. Again on take off back onto the highway, big stumble followed by huge surge. I actually had to hit the clutch lever and rev the throttle a couple of times to recover because the motor felt for a second as though it had stopped.

I will post any response from my call to Yamaha.

 

[Wingman]

Well, well check this out.A local Yammy-affiliated FJR Club here in Northern Italy reported to Mama that some of its members were experiencing poor driveability issues yada, yada in connection with higher-elevation riding.

The Yammy tech. management promptly responded that (and I quote)

1. they had recently been made aware of such problems;

2. following their inspectors' checks at various dealerships they have no way at this time to confirm these anomalies, but they intend to replicate the driving conditions as described by the owners by subjecting test bikes to significant variations of barometric pressure and humidity;

3. the current use of a single sensor is common to other Yammy models and was introduced on the FJR starting with the RP11 model (*) without ever giving rise to such issues as now reported;

4. this sensor reads alternately barometric pressure and intake vacuum, thus ensuring a correct operation of the motor (unquote) :blink:

Say whaat?

Stef

(*) My note: Euro MY2004

Items 3 and 4 get my attention as a possible cause for the stumble/surge condition. I would be interested in knowing exactly how this sensor works. I just don't understand how a single sensor can read both intake manifold pressure and barometric (ambient) pressure. Anyone out there with a 2007 service manual care to chime in?

The following is just speculation, but. . .

IF the sensor uses some mechanical means to switch from ambient to manifold input to the sensor, a delay in switching between the two could cause the sensor to basically lie to the ecm. The ecm could then tell the injectors to send way too much or way too little fuel to the engine. Too much fuel wouldn't be a big issue, but could cause drivability problems under some circumstances. However, too little fuel would definitely be bad because these bikes are already running very lean to start with.

David

 

[teerex51]

<snip> I would be interested in knowing exactly how this sensor works. I just don't understand how a single sensor can read both intake manifold pressure and barometric (ambient) pressure. David <snip>

You and me both, David.

I smell a rat and the wind is coming from Yamaha's direction :angry:

Stef

 

[04 FJRer]

Following up on Tophog's post above I called the 800 number above and tried to get through to Solv so I could add my experiences to his knowledge base on this issue. I was diverted to Jason in Wisconsin, even though I am in California. I asked to be contacted by Solv but was not promised anything.
Just to update my own experience here with the stumble issue, 99% of the bogging/surging symptoms have been resolved by the installation of a PCIII and G2 FJR Tamer throttle cam. What I am now left with is a related symptom which occurs very seldom. The latest episode was yesterday, ironically on a group ride to Big Bear Lake from Palm Desert, CA. We covered elevations from 300-8500 feet above sea level. The only incident of the entire 5 hour ride came at the end of a 30 mile freeway run at speeds of 70-80 mph. At the end of exit ramp to Beaumont (elev. 2800 ft.), we stopped for a traffic light before making a right turn into the cross street. On the take off into the right turn the bike seemed to stall and then surge immediately as more throttle was applied. No other symptom all day long.

A similar event occurred a week ago in the mountains south of Palm Desert. Again after a long run on the twistys at 2500- 4000 Ft above sea level, at constant 4000-5000 rpm engine speeds, I pulled off to talk with my riding partner. Didn't shut down only sat idling for a couple of minutes before taking off. Again on take off back onto the highway, big stumble followed by huge surge. I actually had to hit the clutch lever and rev the throttle a couple of times to recover because the motor felt for a second as though it had stopped.

I will post any response from my call to Yamaha.

HEY EVERYONE!! I don't think this is a "07 problem ONLY...MY '04 does the exact same thing...It's been to the YAM dealer three times and they are clueless. My will completely stall. MY idle is set at 1100...checked voltage while still and running and it's fine...it has had a new (recall) TPS and still acting up. //this is sounding like a FJR problem for many model years to me...I'm still investigating.

 

[Farkles]

I have and 07 and I found that when I let it sit on the side stand over night it has problems with surging, but after a bit goes away. Am taking a trip to Central oregon this weekend so will see how it behaves.

 

[tophog]

So that would be a nightly problem? I think this thread may be getting off track some as there appears to be people that have a general, slight surging problem regardless of altitude and people that have a bad altitude specific problem?

In my case, the surging is VERY bad. I'm not talking about a slight up/down sound/feel to the throttle. I'm talking about loosing all power for 1-3 seconds at a time, having to feather the throttle to keep the bike's momentom going, and the bike will surge non-stop once it starts until the bike goes back down to around a 1000' altitude. It's like the bike is continously running out of gas ....until the bike is turned off/on again which only fixes the problem for a minute then acts up again or the bike is down under 1000'.

Farkles, my bike first acted up down your way on Hwy 227 between Tiller and Shady Cove. I'm going to try and find a local ride where I can get it to act up 100% of the time so I know which direction to point the dealer to.

I have and 07 and I found that when I let it sit on the side stand over night it has problems with surging, but after a bit goes away. Am taking a trip to Central oregon this weekend so will see how it behaves.

 

[Wingman]

<snip>A local Yammy-affiliated FJR Club here in Northern Italy reported to Mama that some of its members were experiencing poor driveability issues yada, yada in connection with higher-elevation riding.

The Yammy tech. management promptly responded that (and I quote)

4. this sensor reads alternately barometric pressure and intake vacuum, thus ensuring a correct operation of the motor </snip>

I was able to find a copy of the 2006 service manual, and the only reference to "atmospheric pressure" I could find was on page 8-73 in the diagnostic mode section. Diagnostic code no. 3 displays the intake air pressure. The test procedure is to enter the diag mode and verify that the number changes when the engine is cranked. If I am reading this correctly, the only time atmospheric pressure would be read is when the key is on but the engine is not running. Unless the Italian bikes use a different sensor setup, the statement above doesn't seem to make any sense.

When I did the test this morning mine showed a 94 at rest and varied between 90-92 while cranking the engine with the starter. Test conditions were 71 deg F, 60% humidity, and approximately 1300 feet above sea level. Local weather station reported 30.01 in HG at the time.

My bike has only acted up once, I was going uphill on a long grade following another vehicle. When it started I was in 5th gear running about 55 mph around 1500 ft msl. Throttle response seemed sluggish and dropping to lower gears made very little difference. Opening the throttle further had no immediate affect, then after a short delay, the power came back as suddenly as it had gone. It felt to me like the engine was being temporarily starved of fuel. The problem persisted for about a half mile while I looked for a safe place to pull over. Topped the hill around 3000 ft and pulled over while going down about 2/10 mile later, but the bike appeared to fix itself on the way down. Hasn't done it since.

Mine apperaed to have a pretty mild case compared to what others are experiencing, and I hope someone is able to figure out the cause and a possible solution.

David

 

[teerex51]

(...) the only time atmospheric pressure would be read is when the key is on but the engine is not running. Unless the Italian bikes use a different sensor setup, the statement above doesn't seem to make any sense.
(...)

David

+ 1 one more time. The bikes in question are standard Euro-regs bikes. Yamaha's statement is "hinky" at best. :huh:

I also need to double-check their contention that the 2-sensor setup was already discontinued with RP11. Was anybody aware of that?

Stef

 

[econ2001]

I have experienced 2 different incidents in this last week. Both were independent from each other in terms of altitude and riding style.

My Cherry 07 had roughly 1400 miles on it at the time of its first episode. It was parked with the ignition on, but not running. Elevation, 4300 ft (Salt Lake City). It had been ridden for an hour or so before I stopped to check out a friends boat. It had a radar detector plugged in at the time, which was also powered during the 30 minute stop. When I started it back up, it acted like it was running out of fuel. It stuttered and stammered, and nearly caused me to fall over for lack of power. There was nothing there. it acted like it was out of gas, and there was a nearly full tank, which had been free of problems up to that point.

the bike acted fine once it got going, but when I stopped to cross traffic, I nearly fell over again when I started from a stop. I had to push it across approaching traffic and rev the throttle on and off until it got over the hickups. this lasted for 30 blocks before it was totally gone.

The first episode was a low end choking, sputtering similar to being out of fuel.

The day the after the first episode I was scheduled to go on a 1500 mile round trip ride, which I could not miss. It was during this ride that I had another episode.

The second occurred at 2300 feet (Moscow, ID) and the bike had been running fine on the same tank of gas. It had been parked for a few hours and started up to go take a short ride. As I was leaving the parking lot and merging into traffic, it choked out again. But only for a few moments (2 seconds) and then it was gone. It made me think that the gremlin was not gone.

Either way, I hope there is an explanation for the sputtering, low idle choking. I look forward to hearing what might have been wrong.

p.s. I had no problem in the on-off-throttle during twisties from SLC to Pendelton, OR - Moscow, ID- McCall, ID- Boise- Salt Lake trip. My problem was low end, starting from a stop like I was out of gas.

 

[Wingman]

I have experienced 2 different incidents in this last week. Both were independent from each other in terms of altitude and riding style.
My Cherry 07 had roughly 1400 miles on it at the time of its first episode. It was parked with the ignition on, but not running. Elevation, 4300 ft (Salt Lake City). It had been ridden for an hour or so before I stopped to check out a friends boat. It had a radar detector plugged in at the time, which was also powered during the 30 minute stop. When I started it back up, it acted like it was running out of fuel. It stuttered and stammered, and nearly caused me to fall over for lack of power. There was nothing there. it acted like it was out of gas, and there was a nearly full tank, which had been free of problems up to that point.

the bike acted fine once it got going, but when I stopped to cross traffic, I nearly fell over again when I started from a stop. I had to push it across approaching traffic and rev the throttle on and off until it got over the hickups. this lasted for 30 blocks before it was totally gone.

The first episode was a low end choking, sputtering similar to being out of fuel.

The day the after the first episode I was scheduled to go on a 1500 mile round trip ride, which I could not miss. It was during this ride that I had another episode.

The second occurred at 2300 feet (Moscow, ID) and the bike had been running fine on the same tank of gas. It had been parked for a few hours and started up to go take a short ride. As I was leaving the parking lot and merging into traffic, it choked out again. But only for a few moments (2 seconds) and then it was gone. It made me think that the gremlin was not gone.

Either way, I hope there is an explanation for the sputtering, low idle choking. I look forward to hearing what might have been wrong.

p.s. I had no problem in the on-off-throttle during twisties from SLC to Pendelton, OR - Moscow, ID- McCall, ID- Boise- Salt Lake trip. My problem was low end, starting from a stop like I was out of gas.

I wonder if the problem has anything to do with vapor lock in the fuel lines? The only time mine acted up I had been riding for at least an hour, then stopped for about 15-20 minutes. Probably hadn't been riding more than 2-3 minutes when I experienced the lack of power and surging, though not nearly as bad as you describe. It was probably about 80-85 degrees when I stopped.

David

 

[04 FJRer]

I have experienced 2 different incidents in this last week. Both were independent from each other in terms of altitude and riding style.
My Cherry 07 had roughly 1400 miles on it at the time of its first episode. It was parked with the ignition on, but not running. Elevation, 4300 ft (Salt Lake City). It had been ridden for an hour or so before I stopped to check out a friends boat. It had a radar detector plugged in at the time, which was also powered during the 30 minute stop. When I started it back up, it acted like it was running out of fuel. It stuttered and stammered, and nearly caused me to fall over for lack of power. There was nothing there. it acted like it was out of gas, and there was a nearly full tank, which had been free of problems up to that point.

the bike acted fine once it got going, but when I stopped to cross traffic, I nearly fell over again when I started from a stop. I had to push it across approaching traffic and rev the throttle on and off until it got over the hickups. this lasted for 30 blocks before it was totally gone.

The first episode was a low end choking, sputtering similar to being out of fuel.

The day the after the first episode I was scheduled to go on a 1500 mile round trip ride, which I could not miss. It was during this ride that I had another episode.

The second occurred at 2300 feet (Moscow, ID) and the bike had been running fine on the same tank of gas. It had been parked for a few hours and started up to go take a short ride. As I was leaving the parking lot and merging into traffic, it choked out again. But only for a few moments (2 seconds) and then it was gone. It made me think that the gremlin was not gone.

Either way, I hope there is an explanation for the sputtering, low idle choking. I look forward to hearing what might have been wrong.

p.s. I had no problem in the on-off-throttle during twisties from SLC to Pendelton, OR - Moscow, ID- McCall, ID- Boise- Salt Lake trip. My problem was low end, starting from a stop like I was out of gas.

I wonder if the problem has anything to do with vapor lock in the fuel lines? The only time mine acted up I had been riding for at least an hour, then stopped for about 15-20 minutes. Probably hadn't been riding more than 2-3 minutes when I experienced the lack of power and surging, though not nearly as bad as you describe. It was probably about 80-85 degrees when I stopped.

David

I have driven mine in all temp ranges---both engine and outside temps, and my 04 seems to act up when it's cooler...both engine and outside temop. HMMMM...this could be a "choke" related issue...any thoughts???

 

[Farkles]

.Ok rode mine this weekend. :yahoo: 3000 miles starting from abut 1300 ft to 6000 and down to 5500 or so.

First part of trip ran great smooth run up of throttle ran glass smooth.

After being up there over night it had a few stumbles and seemed to be working hard to do the same speed. Still went fast but like it was pushing against a wall or something. Get back to home and it changed back to very smooth response.

Weird. :blink:

 

[headude]

Interested in this thread. I just bought an 07; have 150 miles on it. I live at 2100 feet elevation. No problems so far. In three weeks I start a three month trip that takes me from sea level to 12,000 feet in elevation. I will be watching for this problem now that I know it has some frequency among owners.

 

[tophog]

I think the core of the problem is the *change* in altitude and not necessarily a particular altitude. This would be different then people that live/ride at a particular altitude most of the time. Just a hunch.