2008 Kawasaki Concours 14

[madmike2]

Okay, I'll admit that once in awhile I try to upshift into 6th. Then I look down at the round gauge in the center of my instrument cluster, recognize that the needle is vertical or sweeping to the right, and consider that I really don't need to riding like that.

Iggy's back from his little trip around WA state, so: 6...5...4...3...

 

[markjenn]

I've never met a bike with a six-speed yet that I thought would be a better bike with a five-speed. Whether the extra gear would be used to lower cruising RPMs, have a lower 1st gear, tighten up the ratios, or some combo of these, it WOULD improve the bike.

But the bike doesn't really need it. If it raised the price $200, probably not worth it. And every extra feature raises the price. It would probably make the box slightly weaker and less reliable too unless they were to do other expensive upgrades.

In these discussions, I often get the impression that people feel Yamaha can add an extra gear to the transmission the same way they can add a few watts to the alternator or increase the size of the luggage rack. It just ain't so. Adding a sixth gear would require a complete re-engineering of the transmission which would essentially mean re-engineering some VERY expensive parts of the bike. Stuff like transmissions, bearings, crankcase forgings, etc. are expensive parts to design, machine, and develop tooling for so you have to produce a lot of units to defer the fixed costs.

So if/when the FJR gets a six-speed box will be the time where we'll likely get a completely new engine too. My guess is that Yamaha won't do this until the 10-15 year mark, consistent with major re-engineering of the Honda ST and Concours. Figure sometime between 2012 and 2015.

- Mark

 

[Rogue]

Okay, I'll admit that once in awhile I try to upshift into 6th. Then I look down at the round gauge in the center of my instrument cluster....

I've had it happen a few times too, But I've also been cruising at 80-85 and looked at the tach and discovered I'm in 4th.

I'm guessing this thread is headed for the NEPRT page.

Or at least take it out of "SportBikes"! :blink: :blink:

 

[madmike2]

Wellll, it started by talking about the New Connie having a 6-speed..... :blink: . Then it morphed into, Why doesn't Yamaha give the FJR a 6-speed? From there it has degenerated into the same morass every other discussion about FJR's having or needing a 6-speed. Some want one very badly and think the bike needs one. Others are quite satisfied with it the way it is and don't understand, probably because they don't ride the bike at 8/10s or 9/10s, or are used to bikes running highway-speeds-plus at 4K-5K rpms, so don't see the need for "hyper-overdrive".

In these discussions, I often get the impression that people feel Yamaha can add an extra gear to the transmission the same way they can add a few watts to the alternator or increase the size of the luggage rack. It just ain't so. Adding a sixth gear would require a complete re-engineering of the transmission which would essentially mean re-engineering some VERY expensive parts of the bike. Stuff like transmissions, bearings, crankcase forgings, etc. are expensive parts to design, machine, and develop tooling for so you have to produce a lot of units to defer the fixed costs.

Ding, ding, ding...markjenn is the winner. In the manufacture and sale of motor vehicles the "bottom line" is the "bottom line". I'm supposing nobody who is crying for a 6th gear would be willing to pony up the extra $$$s it would require.

Doesn't the Norge come with a 6-speed? They're only $15K. Since the "New Connie" has a 6-speed, I'm guessing that some FJR owners will be heading to their local Kawi store.

 

[Rogue]

Wellll, it started by talking about the New Connie having a 6-speed..... :blink: .

Exactly my point........ I didn't think the Connie was a SportBike!

 

[OldMotor]

Doesn't the Norge come with a 6-speed? They're only $15K. Since the "New Connie" has a 6-speed, I'm guessing that some FJR owners will be heading to their local Kawi store.

This is what I'm hoping for. I may be interested in an 06 FJR in the fall when the "New Connie" comes out.

 

[Cdogman]

A taller gear would be of no use to me. My bike powers out at about 145 with E52 GIVI and 2 side bags. Even have to drop a gear (to 4th) to go up some canyons and hold 130.. At least someone told me that once :derisive:

 

[Slardy]

I've never met a bike with a six-speed yet that I thought would be a better bike with a five-speed. Whether the extra gear would be used to lower cruising RPMs, have a lower 1st gear, tighten up the ratios, or some combo of these, it WOULD improve the bike.
But the bike doesn't really need it. If it raised the price $200, probably not worth it. And every extra feature raises the price. It would probably make the box slightly weaker and less reliable too unless they were to do other expensive upgrades.

In these discussions, I often get the impression that people feel Yamaha can add an extra gear to the transmission the same way they can add a few watts to the alternator or increase the size of the luggage rack. It just ain't so. Adding a sixth gear would require a complete re-engineering of the transmission which would essentially mean re-engineering some VERY expensive parts of the bike. Stuff like transmissions, bearings, crankcase forgings, etc. are expensive parts to design, machine, and develop tooling for so you have to produce a lot of units to defer the fixed costs.

So if/when the FJR gets a six-speed box will be the time where we'll likely get a completely new engine too. My guess is that Yamaha won't do this until the 10-15 year mark, consistent with major re-engineering of the Honda ST and Concours. Figure sometime between 2012 and 2015.

- Mark

Well boys, so the FRJ does not need a 6th overdrive gear, eh? FYI the 2008 ZX-14 is proving you wrong. This is from a recent review:

"First through third are lower, fourth is the same as the ZX-14 while fifth is a touch higher and sixth gear has become a true overdrive."

 

[Bounce]

My recent trip to Big Bend afforded me the first real opportunity to um...test...this bike. I now understand that the bike is in fact correctly geared. What feels busy and buzzy at 75 (and originally had me looking for 6th) feels like butter at um...higher speeds.
No 6th needed but I wouldn't mind having the 4,100 RPM buzz moved up or down a bit in the RPM range vs. the current gearing so it's not so prevalent at the speeds I normally run.

back a few summers ago, i spent a lot of time at (and above) 85 (since 85 was my target speed). it's a sweet bike in that range and can do it all day long; day after day.

 

[mcatrophy]

I've never met a bike with a six-speed yet that I thought would be a better bike with a five-speed. Whether the extra gear would be used to lower cruising RPMs, have a lower 1st gear, tighten up the ratios, or some combo of these, it WOULD improve the bike....- Mark

My Trophy 1200 had a 6 speed box. It really didn't need its 5th gear, there was very little difference between 5th and 6th. I rarely used 5th, so I guess you could say the bike would be better without it.

However ...

A taller gear would be of no use to me. My bike powers out at about 145 with E52 GIVI and 2 side bags. Even have to drop a gear (to 4th) to go up some canyons and hold 130.. At least someone told me that once :derisive:

I don't think top speed is the point. By all means have a gear that is "tuned" for maximum power at maximum speed. Make that 5th, then have a higher over-drive for slab riding. Quieter, less fuel used so more range. OK, so roll-on won't be as sharp in an overdrive, so change down if you need to accelerate.

 

[Slardy]

QUOTE FROM MCATROPHY

"I don't think top speed is the point. By all means have a gear that is "tuned" for maximum power at maximum speed. Make that 5th, then have a higher over-drive for slab riding. Quieter, less fuel used so more range. OK, so roll-on won't be as sharp in an overdrive, so change down if you need to accelerate."

****************************************************************************

Right on,'mcatrophy' ! That was the point of my comment that one of the reason many (most) manufacturers do not offer a true "overdrive" is that the bikes performance will suffer in magazine tests in such categories as 50 to 80 mps roll-ons and the such.

 

[one day]

. . .but mine goes to 11

 

[v65]

Well boys, so the FRJ does not need a 6th overdrive gear, eh? FYI the 2008 ZX-14 is proving you wrong. This is from a recent review:
"First through third are lower, fourth is the same as the ZX-14 while fifth is a touch higher and sixth gear has become a true overdrive."

So what exactly does that prove other than the relationship the new Connie's gears and the ZX-14's gears?

My FJR has never shown any indication that it needed lower gearing in the first three gears. Thats the whole point in having torque, fewer gears to row through. Yesterday I was having a blast through a ten mile section of twisties in the 50-80mph region, all in one gear - second. That is what the FJR motor/gearing combo are about.

Why would I want a true overdrive? Only two reasons I can see:

1) Higher top speed.

155 is enough for me, no thanks.

2) Lower the rpms at cruising speeds.

I'd rather be in the power band than putzing around at 2-3k. The Star brand makes some nice scoots for those rpms.

 

[Slardy]

Well boys, so the FRJ does not need a 6th overdrive gear, eh? FYI the 2008 ZX-14 is proving you wrong. This is from a recent review:
"First through third are lower, fourth is the same as the ZX-14 while fifth is a touch higher and sixth gear has become a true overdrive."

So what exactly does that prove other than the relationship the new Connie's gears and the ZX-14's gears?

My FJR has never shown any indication that it needed lower gearing in the first three gears. Thats the whole point in having torque, fewer gears to row through. Yesterday I was having a blast through a ten mile section of twisties in the 50-80mph region, all in one gear - second. That is what the FJR motor/gearing combo are about.

Why would I want a true overdrive? Only two reasons I can see:

1) Higher top speed.

155 is enough for me, no thanks.

2) Lower the rpms at cruising speeds.

I'd rather be in the power band than putzing around at 2-3k. The Star brand makes some nice scoots for those rpms.

v65, you may not understand what an "OVERDRIVE" gear is. An overdrive will NOT give you a higher top speed. Top speed capability resides in the gear BELOW overdrive on a vehicle that has an overdrive gear. That is why it is call over-drive. You can not reach top speed in overdrive unless you have modified the vehicle's engine to increase the horsepower and/or the RPM at which the max. horsepower is achieved.

BTW, no one is talking about changing any gear ratios in any of the gears in the FJR, just that it would be very useful to have a 6th, overdrive gear, included in the gear box. Notice that Yamaha did lower the RMPs in 5th gear in the 2007 model (which I have) and I appreciate the slightly reduced RPMs in 5th over my old 2004. Yamaha responded to owners comments.

The FJR, a sport-touring machine, has all the sport needed, but the touring side of the classification could be greatly improved by the addition of a 6th OVERDRIVE gear, IMHO. I bet the next gen. of FJR has an overdrive.

 

[v65]

v65, you may not understand what an "OVERDRIVE" gear is. An overdrive will NOT give you a higher top speed. Top speed capability resides in the gear BELOW overdrive on a vehicle that has an overdrive gear. That is why it is call over-drive. You can not reach top speed in overdrive unless you have modified the vehicle's engine to increase the horsepower and/or the RPM at which the max. horsepower is achieved.
BTW, no one is talking about changing any gear ratios in any of the gears in the FJR, just that it would be very useful to have a 6th, overdrive gear, included in the gear box. Notice that Yamaha did lower the RMPs in 5th gear in the 2007 model (which I have) and I appreciate the slightly reduced RPMs in 5th over my old 2004. Yamaha responded to owners comments.

The FJR, a sport-touring machine, has all the sport needed, but the touring side of the classification could be greatly improved by the addition of a 6th OVERDRIVE gear, IMHO. I bet the next gen. of FJR has an overdrive.

I didn't misunderstand a thing; I am covering all possibilities for putting six speeds in the Yamaha gear box as this issue has been hashed over over again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again with some of the participants clearly unclear by what they want/mean with a sixth gear. Once again, although this incarnation of this discussion seems to be doing remarkably well at centering on a true overdrive that has rarely been the case. Read my post again, your overdrive was covered.

 

[Slardy]

I didn't misunderstand a thing; I am covering all possibilities for putting six speeds in the Yamaha gear box as this issue has been hashed over over again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again with some of the participants clearly unclear by what they want/mean with a sixth gear. Once again, although this incarnation of this discussion seems to be doing remarkably well at centering on a true overdrive that has rarely been the case. Read my post again, your overdrive was covered.


v65,

You responded as though an overdrive 6th gear was something to be avoided. Why? Would you not like to have one on your FJR?

If you have no further interest in the topic, please don't respond.

Slardy

 

[RTSR1/FJR]

Even if we had 6 speeds, Low gear and high gear would more than likely be the same. The horsepower and torque detirmine final gear ratios. Lots of chain drive bikes will go faster if you lower the final drive ratio because they will not pull the revs in high gear with stock gearing. The FJR has enough torque it only needs three gears. One to start out. One for town. One for highway. :lol:

Yup! Have any of you proponents of a 6-speed transmission bothered to compare the final drive ratio between all the bikes? How about including the Hayabusa and the Blackbird? My Connie had 6 speeds but ran higher rpms at 75 mph than my FJR does. Why would you want to "row" through 6 gears to reach the same final drive/overdrive ratio? Especially when the HPO and torque of the FJR make it so easy to ride? Of course, I don't usually involve myself in such aggressive riding that I would benefit from the extrat ratio between First gear and Overdrive.

oster_stupid: People think it will make it faster/stronger! They think their missing something!

 

[wfooshee]

v65, you may not understand what an "OVERDRIVE" gear is. An overdrive will NOT give you a higher top speed. Top speed capability resides in the gear BELOW overdrive on a vehicle that has an overdrive gear. That is why it is call over-drive. You can not reach top speed in overdrive unless you have modified the vehicle's engine to increase the horsepower and/or the RPM at which the max. horsepower is achieved.
BTW, no one is talking about changing any gear ratios in any of the gears in the FJR, just that it would be very useful to have a 6th, overdrive gear, included in the gear box. Notice that Yamaha did lower the RMPs in 5th gear in the 2007 model (which I have) and I appreciate the slightly reduced RPMs in 5th over my old 2004. Yamaha responded to owners comments.

The FJR, a sport-touring machine, has all the sport needed, but the touring side of the classification could be greatly improved by the addition of a 6th OVERDRIVE gear, IMHO. I bet the next gen. of FJR has an overdrive.

I'm thinking someone else doesn't understand what 'overdrive' means.

Almost all gear ratios in the transmission are reduction gears. The output shaft turns slower than the input shaft. If the output shaft actually spins faster (geared "up", expressed numerically as less than 1) you have an overdrive ratio.

My owner's manual lists the ratio for 5th as 0.929. Technically, that's an overdrive ratio.

Oh. It's the gear used for the highest speed on the FJR.

On my '95 Probe GT, 4th and 5th are both overdrives, and max velocity (just over 140) is reached in 5th.

The usage of 'overdrive' to mean a tall highway gear is well understood by everyone, but not technically correct.

As for whether the FJR needs a 6th gear, I dunno. I'm leaning towards yes, simply because I keep trying to get 6th after riding my brother's bike. No other reason.

6 speeds would allow Yamaha to space the ratios closer, whcih is done to keep the engins in its power band. Our engine's power band isn't so narrow that it needs that help. At any given road speed you've got at least 3, probably 4 gears you could be using, depending on what you're doing. I don't see another ratio choice helping anything.

 

[v65]

v65,You responded as though an overdrive 6th gear was something to be avoided. Why? Would you not like to have one on your FJR?

If you have no further interest in the topic, please don't respond.

Slardy

In regards to wfooshee's post, Slardy can we both agree that in this case by overdrive we mean a sixth gear that would lower the RPM of the FJR at cruising speed? If not, please clarify what it is we are talking about. If you do agree then please read on.

As I responded above, I do not want an overdrive nor do I think the FJR should have an overdrive because then you and others would use it. I am not being a wise ass, let me explain my reasoning more carefully.

HYPOTHESIS: The cruising speed rpm's of the FJR does not need to be and in fact should not be lowered. Let me address the does not need to be and the should not be separately.

1) Does not need to be.

IMO to many FJR riders think that riding along at 4000rpm's is wrong somehow(cruiser backgrounds?). I can't remember the members name, but he coined the phrase "I ride my bike like I own it". That is incorrect thinking. Unlike v-twins that many are familiar with, this motor begs to be revved. There was a time when Honda would give lessons to new owners on revving the motor because it was such a foreign concept to many(this was for their cars). The FJR will cruise along at 4-5k rpms for the next 100,000 miles happily. In fact some FJR riders have ridden their bikes in 100 degree heat at 120mph for hours, no problems(no references here, there are posts out there). Cruising along at 3k rpm is NOT doing your engine any favors, as one forum member learned the occasional foray into the redline zone can actually be beneficial. I can get to over 80mph in second, why in the heck would I need a sixth gear for highway speeds? (Haulin' Ashe, no need to respond here :lol: )

Now, if your issue with the 4k-5k at cruising speeds is vibration that is entirely another issue. As was mentioned previously that can (should) be fixed.

2) should not be

For me this is an issue of safety, when you are driving a motorcycle the only advantage you have over other vehicles is maneuverability and escapability (braking and acceleration). IMO you should ALWAYS place yourself in a position of using these advantages (the always being capitalized for numerous reasons, one being to negate any discussion of gas mileage). You put yourself at a disadvantage in terms of acceleration if you are below 4k rpm, in fact sometimes I ride on the highway in 4th gear to INCREASE the rpms. The FJR will accelerate from below 4k rpm, but just isn't as strong.

To me keeping the rpm's up is a safety issue, I think you should practice this, and if you have an "overdrive" available I believe you won't.

Will you ever use his safety feature? Like every feature it only takes once, and I have used it when a tractor trailer decided to share a lane with me.

Don't ride it like you own it, ride it like it was meant to be ridden.

 

[user 6774]

GOD! I am so F***ING tired of this "I need a 6-Speed!" SH*T! A 6-Speed on anything over 750cc is just marketing hype! The # of gears has almost nothing to do with final drive and the FJR would do fine with a 4-Speed! The purpose of putting more speeds in a tranny is to be able to keep the motor in the power band more of the time. This is only needed when you have a narrow power band (like a 2 stroke or a small displacement motor) and you need to be in the power band for racing! The 6-Speed is not needed on a bike like the FJR! If you think you need a 6-Speed buy an NSR250 and go to the track!

I haven't been on an FJR for more than say, 3 miles, but even *I* think there's too many gears. 1st and 2nd are nearly the same gear, so it feels.

According to this: https://www.fjr1300.info/FJR-gears.xls

It bears that out.

1.) I don't need to go to 150 mph. (no need for a 5th gear to get 20 more mph)

2.) Happy torque spot around 5,500 rpms: highway speed in 4th gear. https://www.fjr1300.info/chart.html (again, no need for a 5th gear)

3.) 1st and 2nd gear overlap so bad (27 mph at 4,000 in 1st gear... 29 mph at 3,000 in 2nd gear makes for a funny shift point) it's like they're almost the same gear...so it feels anyway. Either drop 1st or 2nd.

Personally, I think it's sillier saying it needs 1 more gear, than 2 fewer, like I think it does.

Now, what it would probably eliminate having that one more gear, is some buzz at the higher RPMs, but...that's part of the FJR soul.