6 gear slipper tranny "2016" in old 5 gears engines?

[Old Guy]

Ok I' m starting to understand my bike is the only Gen1 turning so high on highways (or maybe my metzeller rear tire circumference is smaller than other..)

If the 5th gear ratio on the Gen I is the same as mine, which I think it is, I'd think 4750 should be closer to 90 mph. But that's not the issue I suppose. Just based on info I've found there should be about a 9% reduction in rpm in high gear with the 2016.

wfooshee, I pointed out to the mechanic that the case part numbers were different, and he just shrugged and said it'd fit. Again, I don't know why he's so sure ,and I took it with a grain of salt.

 

[lele]

Ok I' m starting to understand my bike is the only Gen1 turning so high on highways (or maybe my metzeller rear tire circumference is smaller than other..)

If the 5th gear ratio on the Gen I is the same as mine, which I think it is, I'd think 4750 should be closer to 90 mph. But that's not the issue I suppose. Just based on info I've found there should be about a 9% reduction in rpm in high gear with the 2016.

wfooshee, I pointed out to the mechanic that the case part numbers were different, and he just shrugged and said it'd fit. Again, I don't know why he's so sure ,and I took it with a grain of salt.

Your bike is a Gen III, gear ratio from mine are taller

 

[Old Guy]

Ok I' m starting to understand my bike is the only Gen1 turning so high on highways (or maybe my metzeller rear tire circumference is smaller than other..)

If the 5th gear ratio on the Gen I is the same as mine, which I think it is, I'd think 4750 should be closer to 90 mph. But that's not the issue I suppose. Just based on info I've found there should be about a 9% reduction in rpm in high gear with the 2016.

wfooshee, I pointed out to the mechanic that the case part numbers were different, and he just shrugged and said it'd fit. Again, I don't know why he's so sure ,and I took it with a grain of salt.

Your bike is a Gen III, gear ratio from mine are taller

Primary (1.563) and fifth gear (.929) are the same in the 2003 and 2013 owner's manuals.

Secondary for the 2003 is 2.773

Secondary for the 2013 is 2.698

Around a 2.7% difference. But we've gotten a bit off topic here -- still haven't proven whether or not the 2016 gear box would fit your bike

 

[pista]

Lele,

If what you're looking for is to simply reduce your engine revs at cruise, consider doing the Venture final drive swap as posted elsewhere on this forum.

It has already been done, multiple times, and done quite successfully. It's almost a "plug and play" solution for dropping revs.

You won't need to experiment looking for a possible solution involving swapping in a sixth gear. Apparently the gears themselves are of a different design. You really can't just "add" the sixth gear. Redoing the entire transmission or swapping engines may ultimately work. But at what cost?

IMO, buy the parts and do the Venture swap. Then put a 190/55 tire on there to drop the revs a hair more.

 

[John d]

So let's say someone did get a 6 speed in a pre '16 engine. What would the dash gear indicator say in 6th? Masterbate on...

 

[ionbeam]

So let's say someone did get a 6 speed in a pre '16 engine. What would the dash gear indicator say in 6th? Masterbate on...

It would say - - or ER, throw a code and kill the ignition

An AE would burn the clutch and blow the hydraulic actuator lines.

 

[art miller]

Lele,If what you're looking for is to simply reduce your engine revs at cruise, consider doing the Venture final drive swap as posted elsewhere on this forum.

It has already been done, multiple times, and done quite successfully. It's almost a "plug and play" solution for dropping revs.

You won't need to experiment looking for a possible solution involving swapping in a sixth gear. Apparently the gears themselves are of a different design. You really can't just "add" the sixth gear. Redoing the entire transmission or swapping engines may ultimately work. But at what cost?

IMO, buy the parts and do the Venture swap. Then put a 190/55 tire on there to drop the revs a hair more.

+1 on everything stated ^^^. I've done precisely what was stated and the end result is the same advantage as the 2016 in 6th gear. The lower gears are a bit taller than the 6 speed but that is something you can learn to live with. The cost to have the Royal Venture gearing installed in the OEM final drive was $300 plus shipping to RMSpotsMax in Pennsylvania. Beats the crap out of all the questionable Rube Goldberg stuff about fitting a 6 speed trans in a 5 speed case. Stop the mental jurking the gurkin. It can cause acne or blindness!!

 

[mcatrophy]

So let's say someone did get a 6 speed in a pre '16 engine. What would the dash gear indicator say in 6th? Masterbate on...

It would say - - or ER, throw a code and kill the ignition An AE would burn the clutch and blow the hydraulic actuator lines.

Seriously, if it had any gear indication at all (it requires a potentiometer not a switch for gear position), it would never change out of fifth. Unless, of course, you threw in a European Gen 3-and-a-bit AS ECU.
Don't choose the European AE ECU, that would be an American ES, so wouldn't be much good anyway.

 

[Gitbox]

The primary ratio is the same for the 2013 and 2016. One of the secondary ratios is slightly different, 34/36 vs 35/37 and if you factor all the ratios together, you get 22.1418 for the 2016 and 25.5023 for the 2013. That is slightly more than 15% lower RPM for the 2016 in top gear. The final drive gear swap can get an 11.1% reduction in RPM for the earlier models, but the 2016 would still turn about 4% slower. Definitely a tall gear ratio.

 

[art miller]

The primary ratio is the same for the 2013 and 2016. One of the secondary ratios is slightly different, 34/36 vs 35/37 and if you factor all the ratios together, you get 22.1418 for the 2016 and 25.5023 for the 2013. That is slightly more than 15% lower RPM for the 2016 in top gear. The final drive gear swap can get an 11.1% reduction in RPM for the earlier models, but the 2016 would still turn about 4% slower. Definitely a tall gear ratio.

^^ True, but have you calculated the RPM reduction when going up to a 190/55 rear tire? Before modifying the final drive I found the 190/55 tire stepped up the speedo reading 2 MPH which made the speedo match the mph on the GPS.

 

[roger dodger]

My mental 'exercise' is .... could you transplant the 'slipper clutch' from the '16 to a gen 1, 2, or other gen 3???

Smoother, softer shifting w/ slipper action on the down-shifts. THAT'S the real advantage to the newest model!

 

[DeSudet]

My mental 'exercise' is .... could you transplant the 'slipper clutch' from the '16 to a gen 1, 2, or other gen 3???
Smoother, softer shifting w/ slipper action on the down-shifts. THAT'S the real advantage to the newest model!

Been brought up plenty of times, and Bryan from twowheelobsession.com has parts en route to install into his '14. Keep an eye out for him to post a video of it on this and the other forums, a blog entry at TWO, as well as his youtube channel. I'm trying to live this experiment vicariously through him, so forgive me if I sound like a fanboy

 

[DiggerDr.]

That makes a hell of a lot more sense than the transmission swap.

 

[lele]

My mental 'exercise' is .... could you transplant the 'slipper clutch' from the '16 to a gen 1, 2, or other gen 3???
Smoother, softer shifting w/ slipper action on the down-shifts. THAT'S the real advantage to the newest model!

I don't think softer shifting come from the new clutch.. is the new design of gear and trasmission. Yesterday I tried the new 2016 here in Italy and feel almost the same force to pull the clutch and shift the gears like mine old 2001

That makes a hell of a lot more sense than the transmission swap.

In my personal opinion cruising at low RPM got more sense than a new type of clutch

 

[DiggerDr.]

While I agree with the lower cruising speed, changing the transmission is a heck of a lot of work for that gain. As stated before on this forum, it might be better in most cases to change final drive gearing/tire combination. Now I suppose if you had a bad engine laying around with a good transmission, and did not mind the work, why not. The other issues bound to show up would change the learning curve somewhat. By all means, try it!

 

[wfooshee]

That secondary ratio (transmission to middle gear shaft) being different on the 2016 means the 2016 output gear won't fit against the earlier middle gear, so you'd either have to keep the output gear wheel from the earlier transmission (assuming it fits the shaft) and have a very slightly shorter secondary ratio, or get the wheel from the 2016 (which involves some heavy-duty disassembly of that shaft with a Big Giant Spring on it) or the entire assembly ($$$$$$) and keep the 2016 secondary ratio.

The engine cases are different. The secondary ratio out of the transmission is different. The shift drum and forks are different. Are the bearing mounts for all of these the same size? Who knows? It would be a big pile of suckage to buy all that stuff. split a case, and then find out that the shift drum is 2mm larger, or that the gear stacks on the shafts are 5mm longer, and stuff physically doesn't fit in the case. The mechanic saying, "Yeah, it'll fit," is the same thing as me looking at a Cessna and saying, "Yeah, it'll go supersonic." Absolutely nothing to base the statement on.

 

[Old Guy]

the mechanic saying, "Yeah, it'll fit," is the same thing as me looking at a Cessna and saying, "Yeah, it'll go supersonic." Absolutely nothing to base the statement on.

Yeah. I was standing there listening to him thinking to myself "How do you know nothing's changed until you actually try?"

 

[DiggerDr.]

Being a mechanic my whole working career (Almost 40 years) I can tell you incompetence is involved in all walks of life. I would want to be damn sure before I started that project. Which I wouldn't as there are easier ways to accomplish the lower RPM goal. Has that mechanic accomplished that operation? I have seen many "mechanics" that were either parts changers or screw-ups at the owners expense. Some were downright butchers. I don't know the mechanic that said it will work, maybe he knows something I don't. It is your machine, have at it if you must.

 

[lele]

That secondary ratio (transmission to middle gear shaft) being different on the 2016 means the 2016 output gear won't fit against the earlier middle gear, so you'd either have to keep the output gear wheel from the earlier transmission (assuming it fits the shaft) and have a very slightly shorter secondary ratio, or get the wheel from the 2016 (which involves some heavy-duty disassembly of that shaft with a Big Giant Spring on it) or the entire assembly ($$$$$$) and keep the 2016 secondary ratio.
The engine cases are different. The secondary ratio out of the transmission is different. The shift drum and forks are different. Are the bearing mounts for all of these the same size? Who knows? It would be a big pile of suckage to buy all that stuff. split a case, and then find out that the shift drum is 2mm larger, or that the gear stacks on the shafts are 5mm longer, and stuff physically doesn't fit in the case. the mechanic saying, "Yeah, it'll fit," is the same thing as me looking at a Cessna and saying, "Yeah, it'll go supersonic." Absolutely nothing to base the statement on.

this is the best answer for my question

thank u

 

[Top_Speed1]

The sixth gear is nice on the slab plowing down insects at a very high speed.

Other than that, your 5 speed will suffice and has done so for many a years. Don't create a headache that you don't need, just drink more beer!