Randy
Well-known member
I had 2 or 3 items that COULD be considered a violation, but, it would be a matter of interpretation.
A break in the action
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mdisher
formerly Renegade, get used to it.
All I can say is WOW...
While I personally don't see anything wrong with incidental input from outsiders such as...
"Hey (insert name here), I'm on my way to (insert location here), what's the weather look like in that direction?"
- Or -
"Hey (insert name here), I'm (insert location here) and looking at heading to either (x) or
, what's the weather look like in those directions? Anything natural disasters happening in either of those areas?"
That **** happens all the time, same as asking any local when you get to point (x) about finding things or possible ways to get from (x) to
-------------
But to have someone (including previous IB Vets) at your disposal, creating a 'route' for you, to me clearly violates the 'spirit' of the rules and the event itself.
-MD
While I personally don't see anything wrong with incidental input from outsiders such as...
"Hey (insert name here), I'm on my way to (insert location here), what's the weather look like in that direction?"
- Or -
"Hey (insert name here), I'm (insert location here) and looking at heading to either (x) or
, what's the weather look like in those directions? Anything natural disasters happening in either of those areas?"That **** happens all the time, same as asking any local when you get to point (x) about finding things or possible ways to get from (x) to
-------------
But to have someone (including previous IB Vets) at your disposal, creating a 'route' for you, to me clearly violates the 'spirit' of the rules and the event itself.
-MD
Turvy
Well-known member
In my opinion...
The IBR is more than just a test of endurance such as the SS 1000, BB 1500, etc. It is also a test of wit and mapping skills. This should be the sole responsibility of the rider.
Being successful in all of the above is the whole point of it. Only those who can do all of these things themselves are worthy of competing in such a demanding event. (and worthy of some respect)
Period.
The IBR is more than just a test of endurance such as the SS 1000, BB 1500, etc. It is also a test of wit and mapping skills. This should be the sole responsibility of the rider.
Being successful in all of the above is the whole point of it. Only those who can do all of these things themselves are worthy of competing in such a demanding event. (and worthy of some respect)
Period.
Colin24
IBA# 446
This may ramble a bit. But here's a dump of my thoughts on this topic.
------------------------------------------
Personally, I'm not impressed when a rider has a whole team doing the planning behind the scenes. To me this should be the riders job. And I agree it is unfortunate that some have pushed the envelope in this way.
That said, it is not surprising that this has happened. The IBR is NOT a race; But it is a competition. A competition that only runs every other year and only accepts 100 or so riders. So it is completely understanding that some people will look at the rules and realize that something isn't specifically forbidden and they use that to their advantage. Of course when this occurs and it is not welcome a new rule is introduced.
From reading past rally reports and other IBR related stories an interesting analogy would be sponsership. Wasn't always forbidden. But at some point some riders started using this tactic to help with their ride. The IBA decided it wasn't in the spirit of the IBR and a rule was added. Now there is no sponsership.
Some people talk about how a rule would be enforced. I dont know, and I am not sure it entirely matters. Even though some people have chosen to push the envelope by having a support team doing the planning, it is technically legal. (Or at least it technically isn't illegal). Whatever, I see this all as splitting hairs at this point. Point is I _do_ trust the honour of the people in the IBA and IBR (both organizers and entrants). And if there was a specific rule that said no backroom teams doing planning I trust that people would stop using this to gain an advantage.
And if there was a rule against this and someone then did it anyways then they have to live with their conscience. And if it ever came out they deliberately flaunted the rules like this the IBR can (and will) revoke their win years after the fact. Not to mention that persons reputation in the LD community would be essentially ruined. So yeah, I do think a rule is enforcable in a way.
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For those looking for a a technical method of getting around this there is a somewhat simple method. As GZ pointed out in an earlier post, once he had a map listing all the various Bonii the route became self evident. I noticed the same thing when I ran my first multiday LD rally. The vast majority of my "planning" time was simply data entry. Once all the bonii were in map form then choosing and planning the route was easy. Well maybe not easy, but a much smaller portion of the time than the data entry. (For me it was probably 2-3 hours of data entry and about 30 minutes of actual "route" planning). And this is where a "team" would be oh so useful. Getting all the bonii properly entered in the map software so you can do the planning.
So far the IBA/IBR's approach has been to make the route sheet harder to copy (red paper). Of course the paper listing of bonii dates back to the earliest years of the LD Rallying long before computers and GPS and such. So perhaps instead of trying to make it harder to copy, provide the data in digital form ready for import into your favourite GPS or mapping software. This would not eliminate the usefullness of a team, but it would really takes a dent out of the advantage of having a team working for you. All the rider would need to do is import the file of waypoints then immediately get down to actual route planning. Not just data entry.
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In the end though all this chatter is neither here nor there. I have complete faith that Lisa and Mike will be discussing this and will deal with the situation appropriately for the next run of the rally.
- Colin
------------------------------------------
Personally, I'm not impressed when a rider has a whole team doing the planning behind the scenes. To me this should be the riders job. And I agree it is unfortunate that some have pushed the envelope in this way.
That said, it is not surprising that this has happened. The IBR is NOT a race; But it is a competition. A competition that only runs every other year and only accepts 100 or so riders. So it is completely understanding that some people will look at the rules and realize that something isn't specifically forbidden and they use that to their advantage. Of course when this occurs and it is not welcome a new rule is introduced.
From reading past rally reports and other IBR related stories an interesting analogy would be sponsership. Wasn't always forbidden. But at some point some riders started using this tactic to help with their ride. The IBA decided it wasn't in the spirit of the IBR and a rule was added. Now there is no sponsership.
Some people talk about how a rule would be enforced. I dont know, and I am not sure it entirely matters. Even though some people have chosen to push the envelope by having a support team doing the planning, it is technically legal. (Or at least it technically isn't illegal). Whatever, I see this all as splitting hairs at this point. Point is I _do_ trust the honour of the people in the IBA and IBR (both organizers and entrants). And if there was a specific rule that said no backroom teams doing planning I trust that people would stop using this to gain an advantage.
And if there was a rule against this and someone then did it anyways then they have to live with their conscience. And if it ever came out they deliberately flaunted the rules like this the IBR can (and will) revoke their win years after the fact. Not to mention that persons reputation in the LD community would be essentially ruined. So yeah, I do think a rule is enforcable in a way.
------------------------------------------------------
For those looking for a a technical method of getting around this there is a somewhat simple method. As GZ pointed out in an earlier post, once he had a map listing all the various Bonii the route became self evident. I noticed the same thing when I ran my first multiday LD rally. The vast majority of my "planning" time was simply data entry. Once all the bonii were in map form then choosing and planning the route was easy. Well maybe not easy, but a much smaller portion of the time than the data entry. (For me it was probably 2-3 hours of data entry and about 30 minutes of actual "route" planning). And this is where a "team" would be oh so useful. Getting all the bonii properly entered in the map software so you can do the planning.
So far the IBA/IBR's approach has been to make the route sheet harder to copy (red paper). Of course the paper listing of bonii dates back to the earliest years of the LD Rallying long before computers and GPS and such. So perhaps instead of trying to make it harder to copy, provide the data in digital form ready for import into your favourite GPS or mapping software. This would not eliminate the usefullness of a team, but it would really takes a dent out of the advantage of having a team working for you. All the rider would need to do is import the file of waypoints then immediately get down to actual route planning. Not just data entry.
------------------------------------------------------
In the end though all this chatter is neither here nor there. I have complete faith that Lisa and Mike will be discussing this and will deal with the situation appropriately for the next run of the rally.
- Colin
FJR-Richie
Well-known member
It's hardly a data entry exercise when it takes Jim Owen 6+ hours to plan his route and others more than 8.
Indian Scout
Well-known member
And this is where the teams got a real unfair advantage. The rider could take off west on the second leg and ride for six hours before others are even able to leave. Then he gets a phone call telling him where to go.
Thug
A shy retiring flower in a Thug's exterior
If you don't understand the ethos about what the ride is about then you will never understand. You don't need a set of rules to tell you to do everything it’s people like this that take the fun out of an event for their own insula pathetic self flagellation. It's surreptitious ******** and if you cannot see it you are brain dead in my view.
Nice. You forgot to call me a cheater though.
Next time I roll up to a bonus, I'll just disregard the instructions and do what I think the instructions should have said. That should work.
Randy
Well-known member
No sense arguing about it anymore. Apparently, up until now, it hasn't been a problem. Now it is. I would expect a rule change to pop up for the next IBR to remove all vagueness from the rules regarding this topic and further define 'outside assistance'.
Thug
A shy retiring flower in a Thug's exterior
Sorry if you have taken this so personally Chris. At the end of the day I suggest your current belief and that of others that now seem to seep in with these events promoting the need to win at any cost may require a rule change. I guess the good thing is there will be no ambiguity when you read the new rules.
Personally I couldn't care less who wins and how many points they get. The only thing that matters is that they all get home safe and sound and get to tell their kids and grandkids about it. This whole ride in the course of human events is pretty inconsequential. Ask anyone on the street how the IBR is going and they will ask, "whats that."
And as to the rules, I have been doing taxes for 30 years and trust me, as soon as rules are made someone will find a loophole which requires a new rule to correct that rule.
One more thing, if its not a race, how come the person with the most points wins? I do respect what they are doing and have zero desire to do it myself but I appreciate what they are doing. There's no getting around it, they all have the 11 days from Hell regardless of methodolgies used.
A safe and sound finish to all participants.
Chester
And as to the rules, I have been doing taxes for 30 years and trust me, as soon as rules are made someone will find a loophole which requires a new rule to correct that rule.
One more thing, if its not a race, how come the person with the most points wins? I do respect what they are doing and have zero desire to do it myself but I appreciate what they are doing. There's no getting around it, they all have the 11 days from Hell regardless of methodolgies used.
A safe and sound finish to all participants.
Chester
Randy
Well-known member
It's not a contest of speed. Usually, a race is won by the person who completes the course in the shortest amount of time. This isn't a set course. In this event, if you and I take the exact same course and pick up the exact same bonii and you do it in 23 hours and I do it in 24, you don't win...we tie.
It is a competition, but, it's not a race.
mdisher
formerly Renegade, get used to it.
:blink:
Of course it's about riding the ride and returning home safe, but as with all things in life, one must keep score. This isn't candy league soccer, nor is it a weekend ride with the buds.
It is an endurance rally, and all the thigns that go with it. It's not about 'speed', rally and race are not the same thing. Speed, too much of it works against the LD rider in the endurance category. The faster you ride the harder it is on all your senses and you fatigue much more quickly.
As Randy pointed out, if two guys run similar routes bagging the same boni (or even completely different routes) but bag the same boni, they tie for the most part. Of course, there are other considerations such as mileage caps, time restrictions and what not, let alone the act of preparing to be scored and actually getting credit for all boni you *thought* you collected.
Speed alone in LD riding isn't a major factor, or contributor to success. I think a lot of people think that it is, but it just isn't in the end. Do guys ride hard? Yes, but the longer they do this the smarter and less hard they ride.
Is it easy? Hell no, but that's what makes it fun, and because more than one man is involved, we must keep score.
Thanks for the apology. I actually cried a little. That's two shots you have taken at me btw.
Did you actually read through the posts on this topic? Maybe you should.
Thug
A shy retiring flower in a Thug's exterior
Thug hands Chris a tissue.... :good: ... :cray: ....yeah I did read it, didn't see anything different? Maybe it's in the translation being downunder and all?
I post at the risk of being made fun of... I have read this thread in its entirety, but no other threads related to this topic. FWIW, I would attempt to ride a long distance rally but not for a while and perhaps more for the experience of the ride and not necessarily for competition.
There is a provision in the rules that clearly state "Soliciting or receiving unauthorized assistance;8" - Now, like all rules/laws, this could be viewed in many different ways. I would imagine that it's intent is to prevent someone from getting cotton-burn from a pillow whilst someone else draws up a map for the next segment. What I will ask is, would this mean there is a method for obtaining approval for assistance? That is vague, and perhaps on purpose, which is obviously left to the interpretation of the rider. Perhaps it needs to be clear as to what type of assistance a rider could receive during the event. There are checkpoints for assistance and perhaps the addition of "emergency or necessary repair for the safe operation of.." would still allow a rider to use the assistance of someone to change a tire, lightbulb, or other items.
Reading about the red paper used to prevent someone from faxing specific information I would only then guess that if I sat down with a laptop and a wireless connection (using cellular or hotel wi-fi) I *could* email that in under 10 minutes to someone far away and wait for a map to get back to me. Perhaps specifically state "electronic transmission of all IBA-provided documents" would be clearly prohibited. This would also leave room for interpretation, but the Rallymaster could also use a broad judgment to state that RiderA using a cell phone to read the document or to email the contents would also qualify as an electronic transmission and could therefore dis-qualify a rider.
Someone mentioned the Aaron/Bonds comparison to this discussion and I could offer only one suggestion. When Hank Aaron set the bar that high, did he participate in year-round conditioning at a specialized sports facility? My point is that there will be advances in thinking on a topic and that will usually result in something new to either fill a need or 'stretch' the limits of what is acceptable.
In the time I wrote this, there were probably several other comments that may or may not cover what I've written. Work kept interfering in more important matters.
There is a provision in the rules that clearly state "Soliciting or receiving unauthorized assistance;8" - Now, like all rules/laws, this could be viewed in many different ways. I would imagine that it's intent is to prevent someone from getting cotton-burn from a pillow whilst someone else draws up a map for the next segment. What I will ask is, would this mean there is a method for obtaining approval for assistance? That is vague, and perhaps on purpose, which is obviously left to the interpretation of the rider. Perhaps it needs to be clear as to what type of assistance a rider could receive during the event. There are checkpoints for assistance and perhaps the addition of "emergency or necessary repair for the safe operation of.." would still allow a rider to use the assistance of someone to change a tire, lightbulb, or other items.
Reading about the red paper used to prevent someone from faxing specific information I would only then guess that if I sat down with a laptop and a wireless connection (using cellular or hotel wi-fi) I *could* email that in under 10 minutes to someone far away and wait for a map to get back to me. Perhaps specifically state "electronic transmission of all IBA-provided documents" would be clearly prohibited. This would also leave room for interpretation, but the Rallymaster could also use a broad judgment to state that RiderA using a cell phone to read the document or to email the contents would also qualify as an electronic transmission and could therefore dis-qualify a rider.
Someone mentioned the Aaron/Bonds comparison to this discussion and I could offer only one suggestion. When Hank Aaron set the bar that high, did he participate in year-round conditioning at a specialized sports facility? My point is that there will be advances in thinking on a topic and that will usually result in something new to either fill a need or 'stretch' the limits of what is acceptable.
In the time I wrote this, there were probably several other comments that may or may not cover what I've written. Work kept interfering in more important matters.
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