ABS saved my butt

[Mike-H]

Ah...yes....the infamous pucker factor....

 

[Sherman]

[Very interesting concept,,,,practice emergecy stops in a curve.......I've assume you're well versed in this...just what can one expect to happen as So I won't kill myself practicing it.....

Simply put:

1. Enter the curve as normal

2. S.E.E. Danger

3. lean back out of steering lean (Straighten back up-right)

4. Brake hard.

***DON'T BRAKE WHILE LEANED OVER****

If it looks like you will over shoot the road

1 lean into the curve again (steer)

2 straighten up again

3 brake again

4 wash, rinse, repeat as nessessary

Practice in empty parking lot with a friend just in case you drop it

So, with a non-ABS bike you must straighten up first.

With an ABS bike, can't you just grab the brakes and not worry about the straighten up part?

If you straighten up in a sharp fast curve, aren't you much more likely off the road or into the obstacle?

 

[radman]

Please, a show of all hands that in a moment of impending doom, can brake at 80%. I thought so. Took a cop car driving course-when the **** is about to hit the fan, 99.9% of the human population will stand with both feet on the pedal, to the point where not only is the pedal arm, bracket, and mount bent (though sometimes combined with impact forces), but the passenger will have dented the floor in an attempt to assist the driver. Many broken knees and other lower extremity injuries can be attributed to this phenomena, which is real, just ask my ma. Not only does she do a constant leg lock when riding with me, but she was in a bad wreck years ago, Dad driving, Ma RF, Granny RR. Granny dead, Ma hospital 1 year, Dad severe chest injuries, but in any case she broke an ankle with no damage to that area of the car (head on with semi). ABS doesn't stop you quicker-actually extends stopping distance slightly, but allows modicum of control while in full panic mode. No one short of a skilled, aware, professional racer can do a better job of stopping a moving vehicle than if they lock up all 4 (or 2) wheels. Few, very few, qualify for the title; even racers, when caught unawares, lock 'em up and pray. Period.

 

[gr8eyes]

c'mon Rad you know good and well you can learn to panic stop safely in a shorter distance than ABS. I learned it in 15 minutes. Now you do have to put a shim in the brake lever so that it only goes back as far as best braking will allow with out lock up. Easy

Glenn

having some fun in OK LOL

OK so I lied. All you anal types sit back down and relax. I'm just kidding around with Rad because it is so much fun.

I happen to agree with everything he said.

Glenn

 

[K-2]

...There were a few guys in my ERC who layed their bikes down in class but I think everyone learned a lot. I took my FZ1 on purpose so I didn't have ABS.-r

This is crazy! I laid my bike down last month and I can tell you that it is VERY expensive to lay down a 2006 FJR. There must be a better way to learn these riding skills than lifting your rear tire a foot off the ground (I would certainly dump the bike if this happened), or intentionally practicing an emergency stop in a turn. I very much so want to learn these things...but don't have an extra $2,000 laying around to fix my bike for each new manuever I want to learn.

I signed up for an ERC for later this summer...will cancel it if my bike is doomed for the pavement during the class.

 

[Bearly Flying]

This is crazy! I laid my bike down last month and I can tell you that it is VERY expensive to lay down a 2006 FJR.

I thought the Magic ABS was supposed to prevent this?????WTF....

 

[twowheelnut]

Correct, Timbo. And linked brakes rock, too!

5

Especially for those who lack the skills to ride well :****: ....one technological screw & your done ....

Yeah, well, one brain fart and your done too, slobber-smacked into the side of the bus that just pulled out in front of you...

Few, very few, qualify for the title; even racers, when caught unawares, lock 'em up and pray. Period.

--------------------

“Calling upon my years of experience, I froze at the controls.”

– Stirling Moss

Your last line and sig say it all... Good job, rad. :good:

 

[worldbound4now]

K-2, stay enrolled in the class. It is a learning environment. If you drop the bike, it's because you pushed things too far. Ride within your comfort zone at first, learn the technique, and then try doing the maneuvers at faster speeds and tighter curves (as your comfort level increases).

 

[XLR8]

So, with a non-ABS bike you must straighten up first.
With an ABS bike, can't you just grab the brakes and not worry about the straighten up part?

If you straighten up in a sharp fast curve, aren't you much more likely off the road or into the obstacle?

Logic and good technique still apply. Just because you have ABS does not mean you can slam on the binders in a corner!

-r

...There were a few guys in my ERC who layed their bikes down in class but I think everyone learned a lot. I took my FZ1 on purpose so I didn't have ABS.

-r

This is crazy! I laid my bike down last month and I can tell you that it is VERY expensive to lay down a 2006 FJR. There must be a better way to learn these riding skills than lifting your rear tire a foot off the ground (I would certainly dump the bike if this happened), or intentionally practicing an emergency stop in a turn. I very much so want to learn these things...but don't have an extra $2,000 laying around to fix my bike for each new manuever I want to learn.

I signed up for an ERC for later this summer...will cancel it if my bike is doomed for the pavement during the class.

A certain amount of risk is required to learn new skills and a closed course is a great place to do it. I'd stay enrolled in the class and accept the risk that come with learning new things. I think you'll be fine. I made it with no mishaps and I'm not a super great rider or anything. I just concentrated on being smooth and level headed.

The guys that dumped their bikes were ham fisted nerve balls. Here in Idaho, you can skip the BRC and go right to the ERC and get your endorsement. I think that's wrong but that's what they were trying (because they knew how to ride!) to do and it obviously didn't work out for them. One of those dumped bikes was a very nice 20K + Victory something something. He dumped it once on each side - too much rear brake. It's expensive chrome. Life goes on.

-r

 

[Penforhire]

ABS will not help much, if at all, while leaned over. Excess weight transfer (or cornering force) starts a slide and it doesn't matter then whether or not the wheel is braking at all.

But two thumbs up for ABS on the street! Even though I'm an ABS advocate I'll echo the question posed earlier, how do you know ABS saved you? Did you feel it cycling on? If so then I'd agree with you. By the way, none of the ABS systems in vehicles I know of allow the same maximum deceleration as non-ABS systems. Something about their algorithm assumes a problem past 1G (hence the 120-ish foot stop distance from 60 MPH for almost all ABS bikes).

 

[Windjammer]

And thus we arrive at the pointless portion of the discusssion.

There will always be those who prefer to learn, practice and rely on their own skills. And there will be those who have neither the time nor the inclination to do so, and would prefer to let technology do it for them.

Neither group will convince the other group of much, no matter what is said - that's why the discussion becomes pointless.

I will say this much, and try to leave out any pro or anti ABS bias. Operator reaction to an impending accident involves much more than braking. It may involve actively taking evasive action, or accelerating instead of braking, and requires the lack of panic so that an ongoing decision making process can take place for as long as humanly possible. When I first started driving cars, my reaction to (what I thought was) an impending accident was to panic, freeze at the controls and hope for the best. After a couple of fender benders I realized that if I had continued to drive the car, I might have avoided the accident. I knew this already from riding dirt bikes, but had to transfer that to driving a car on the road. I've since turned many potential incidents into "close calls" - we all do this, it's part of operating a vehicle.

So I think it is factual to say that ABS will help most people brake better. But that's all. You still need to develop and hone riding/driving skills and explore the capabilities of your vehicle so that you can make the best decisions and use proper judgement when things start to go wrong. Knowing your vehicle builds confidence, and confidence helps prevent panic - the real enemy.

 

[Bearly Flying]

Amen!!!

 

[radman]

+1 on the Jammer. No system can replace or eliminate the necessity for rider skills. Over-reliance on technology got people into deep **** way before ABS came along.

 

[Mike-H]

And thus we arrive at the pointless portion of the discusssion.
There will always be those who prefer to learn, practice and rely on their own skills. And there will be those who have neither the time nor the inclination to do so, and would prefer to let technology do it for them.

Neither group will convince the other group of much, no matter what is said - that's why the discussion becomes pointless.

I will say this much, and try to leave out any pro or anti ABS bias. Operator reaction to an impending accident involves much more than braking. It may involve actively taking evasive action, or accelerating instead of braking, and requires the lack of panic so that an ongoing decision making process can take place for as long as humanly possible. When I first started driving cars, my reaction to (what I thought was) an impending accident was to panic, freeze at the controls and hope for the best. After a couple of fender benders I realized that if I had continued to drive the car, I might have avoided the accident. I knew this already from riding dirt bikes, but had to transfer that to driving a car on the road. I've since turned many potential incidents into "close calls" - we all do this, it's part of operating a vehicle.

So I think it is factual to say that ABS will help most people brake better. But that's all. You still need to develop and hone riding/driving skills and explore the capabilities of your vehicle so that you can make the best decisions and use proper judgement when things start to go wrong. Knowing your vehicle builds confidence, and confidence helps prevent panic - the real enemy.

Most definitely....

 

[rhody]

ABS will not help much, if at all, while leaned over. Excess weight transfer (or cornering force) starts a slide and it doesn't matter then whether or not the wheel is braking at all.
But two thumbs up for ABS on the street! Even though I'm an ABS advocate I'll echo the question posed earlier, how do you know ABS saved you? Did you feel it cycling on? If so then I'd agree with you. By the way, none of the ABS systems in vehicles I know of allow the same maximum deceleration as non-ABS systems. Something about their algorithm assumes a problem past 1G (hence the 120-ish foot stop distance from 60 MPH for almost all ABS bikes).

<_<

I know it helped because in the last few moments with maximum force applied, I heard that clickity click sound of my front wheel letting go from max force being applied . It was the same sound I heard when practicing on straight smooth, then straight bumpy road surfaces. There was more slip and brake chatter practicing on the bumpy roads, which is to be expected.

I want to clarify, I was straight up while attempting to avoid the car blocking my path. My rear wheel did NOT come of the ground, my buddy on the beemer's did. About ten feet before hitting the car, I had scrubbed off enough speed to make a slight, and I mean slight jog to the right, because I knew my friend was right behind me, even though I could not see or hear him. I knew that he was in the same boat as I was. Like I said earlier, I didn't want to get clobbered, so I gave him as much room as I could to maneuver. Call it instinct, call it experience, call it situational awareness, call it whatever you want, the bottom line is I didn't want to go down, and I didn't want my friend to either.

I only know one thing for sure. If I hadn't taken the time to brake harder and harder in practice, to the point of full on ass puckering, eyeball bulging, big positive G's I would have slammed the guy for sure because I would have panicked and not applied enough brake. I know I would not have had enough room to make the jog to the right at the last minute.

One more thing, I noticed some rotor discoloration from the heat being generated from full on stops. Will this cause the rotors to warp from slight flaws in the rotor material. Has anyone suffered warped rotors from stopping hard or through race thrashing ? It would be nice to know. I used some 400 grit wet sandpaper on the rotors and it took some of it off. I would like to know if they could be damaged from the hard stopping.

 

[Fencer]

[Very interesting concept,,,,practice emergecy stops in a curve.......I've assume you're well versed in this...just what can one expect to happen as So I won't kill myself practicing it.....

Simply put:

1. Enter the curve as normal

2. S.E.E. Danger

3. lean back out of steering lean (Straighten back up-right)

4. Brake hard.

***DON'T BRAKE WHILE LEANED OVER****

If it looks like you will over shoot the road

1 lean into the curve again (steer)

2 straighten up again

3 brake again

4 wash, rinse, repeat as nessessary

Practice in empty parking lot with a friend just in case you drop it

So, with a non-ABS bike you must straighten up first.

With an ABS bike, can't you just grab the brakes and not worry about the straighten up part?

If you straighten up in a sharp fast curve, aren't you much more likely off the road or into the obstacle?

NO! NO! NO!

DO NOT GRAB A HAND FULL OF BRAKE WHEN LEANED OVER ABS OR NOT!

The lean back over is an attempt to stay in the road. If you grab brake when leaned over, you will leave the road, if you are going TOO fast for the conditions, you will leave the road. You have to remember the ERC is assuming you are driving the posted limit and not knee dragging a curve.

I just did an ERC last Sat. Whilst I am still new to riding approx 5-6000 miles under my belt and a little over a years time under my belt (pretty much last summer on my old bike and now 1200 miles on my 06) In the evaluation the instructor said I was one of the best in the course and the other called me a show-off because I executed the manuvers so well. I attribute these to the handling and ABS of the 06 (and natural talent of course ). I also had a motor scout as a teacher and riding partner.

Both instuctors said they had never had a bike dropped on thier watch. Well leave it to a HD to blow that. He did drop in the panic brake in a curve portion, just a tip over mind you, but enough to flood the engine to make it have to sit a while before it would re-start. To give you a reference he also dropped it when we left the course to go back to the classroom (backing into a parking spot!). But if you are worried about dropping your bike def instal slidders first. I did as a just in case.

 

[Mike-H]

Geez....Fencer....do you want me to hold him while you slap the no, no, no, into him or what? :blink: ....Fencer no matter how much you want to help (which I can appreciate)....some people just have to learn from their own mistakes....(no matter what the cost to them)....so please....do me a favor.... don't have an aneurysm over it OK....OK....OK.... ....

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Some clarification: The ERC doesn't assume anything about any posted speeds on curves -- MSF teaches techniques for skills and coaches on practicing same -- any posted speeds on curves may or may not apply to your riding (they're mainly there as a guide for car drivers). Braking in a curve is a valid technique -- knowing how is the learned skill. It's been my experience that getting ERC participants to do *anything* agressively is quite difficult -- more often than not, riders are quite reluctant to use their bike's brakes at anything near their potential. With proper technique (a progressivly stronger squeeze on the front brake lever) it's darn-near impossible to overcome the traction of the front tire on a clean road surface due to the increasing pressure at the contact patch -- you will stop in an amazingly short distance (if you haven't practiced to know this). And, finally, yes -- "ham fisted nerveballs" can drop bikes while practicing braking -- and probably while attempting just about anything else with their bike....

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

...There were a few guys in my ERC who layed their bikes down in class but I think everyone learned a lot. I took my FZ1 on purpose so I didn't have ABS.

-r

This is crazy! I laid my bike down last month and I can tell you that it is VERY expensive to lay down a 2006 FJR. There must be a better way to learn these riding skills than lifting your rear tire a foot off the ground (I would certainly dump the bike if this happened), or intentionally practicing an emergency stop in a turn. I very much so want to learn these things...but don't have an extra $2,000 laying around to fix my bike for each new manuever I want to learn.

I signed up for an ERC for later this summer...will cancel it if my bike is doomed for the pavement during the class.

I took an ERC in April and small displacement bikes were supplied to practice the maneuvers...mine had a dent in the tank from a previous rider. I wouldn't ride my FJR personally to do these classes at 90+% ....

But practicing the maneuvers at reasonable speeds (30mph or so) is practical and useful IMHO.

 

[Fencer]

Geez....Fencer....do you want me to hold him while you slap the no, no, no, into him or what? :blink: ....Fencer no matter how much you want to help (which I can appreciate)....some people just have to learn from their own mistakes....(no matter what the cost to them)....so please....do me a favor.... don't have an aneurysm over it OK....OK....OK.... ....

Sorry. To many Rider down posts lately.