another cam chain/ valve adj. issue

[Grumpy]

Damn, that's a good lookin' motor! I'm betting it's got lots of power too!

 

[RadioHowie]

Damn, that's a good lookin' motor! I'm betting it's got lots of power too!

Here's hopin'....

 

[dcarver]

I slipped an exhaust tooth advanced on a 6 cylinder 1979 KZ1300. It would idle and run mid range just fine, but had low power going up hills and ran hotter than normal. Chased that problem for over a week.

'Howie, great job bud. :clapping:

 

[Patriot]

It's Saturday...Howie's Off Work...

[SIZE=24pt]GO HOWIE GO[/SIZE]

:yahoo: :clapping: :yahoo:

 

[bhkfjr]

My bike is in pieces

Update on cam timing issue

Took it back in to the dealer today. I couldn't stand the thought of it being out of time and it just didn't seem to run right. The deal at the service dept. was if it was something they did they would fix it. If they tore it down and it was just my imagination I would pay the hourly rate for the work.

The way they time the FJR is they align the intake sprocket and the crank sprocket with the appropriate marks but since they can't see the exhaust arrows on that sprocket they just use the holes on the cam lobe. Well they got the valve cover off, got TDC on rotor, checked intake sprocket marks (perfect) but the hole on the exhaust cam lobe didn't line up. They said it was really close and did I want to change it? I told them to get a mirror and a straightedge ( HaulinAshe) so we can actually see the timing marks on the sprocket. A EUREKA MOMENT ! The exhaust cam sprocket is visibly off by a tooth! But this is actually a very shortlived victory.

They now are supposed to rotate the exhaust sprocket by one tooth and everything should line up the way it's supposed to--right? 10 min. later they call me back over and tell me they rotated the sprocket back by a tooth but now it's off by a tooth the OTHER way. (they say half a tooth) . Now they ask me if I want it this way or back the way it was. I tell them I want it the way it's supposed to be with the marks on the sprockets even across the straightedge and the marks on the cam lobes lined up as well.

The are claiming that this CAN'T be done because of the way the sprocket teeth fit the cam chain ie: it will always be off a little and there's nothing else to do. In other words, if they line up the exhaust cam it will throw off the intake and the crank because the cam chain won't sit on all the sprockets lined up in time because of the spacing between links??

SO there sits my bike, apparently untimeable. The mech doing the work told me that if I knew so much I could fix it myself and the service manager said he had other work to get out and why didn't just get on the internet and find the solution. Nice

What do I tell these people? What is the reality here?? HELP MEeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Fred W]

My bike is in pieces
Update on cam timing issue

Took it back in to the dealer today. I couldn't stand the thought of it being out of time and it just didn't seem to run right. The deal at the service dept. was if it was something they did they would fix it. If they tore it down and it was just my imagination I would pay the hourly rate for the work.

The way they time the FJR is they align the intake sprocket and the crank sprocket with the appropriate marks but since they can't see the exhaust arrows on that sprocket they just use the holes on the cam lobe. Well they got the valve cover off, got TDC on rotor, checked intake sprocket marks (perfect) but the hole on the exhaust cam lobe didn't line up. They said it was really close and did I want to change it? I told them to get a mirror and a straightedge ( HaulinAshe) so we can actually see the timing marks on the sprocket. A EUREKA MOMENT ! The exhaust cam sprocket is visibly off by a tooth! But this is actually a very shortlived victory.

They now are supposed to rotate the exhaust sprocket by one tooth and everything should line up the way it's supposed to--right? 10 min. later they call me back over and tell me they rotated the sprocket back by a tooth but now it's off by a tooth the OTHER way. (they say half a tooth) . Now they ask me if I want it this way or back the way it was. I tell them I want it the way it's supposed to be with the marks on the sprockets even across the straightedge and the marks on the cam lobes lined up as well.

The are claiming that this CAN'T be done because of the way the sprocket teeth fit the cam chain ie: it will always be off a little and there's nothing else to do. In other words, if they line up the exhaust cam it will throw off the intake and the crank because the cam chain won't sit on all the sprockets lined up in time because of the spacing between links??

SO there sits my bike, apparently untimeable. The mech doing the work told me that if I knew so much I could fix it myself and the service manager said he had other work to get out and why didn't just get on the internet and find the solution. Nice

What do I tell these people? What is the reality here?? HELP MEeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

You are clearly working with a couple of **** heads. If a couple of shop 'tards like these tried to pull that **** on me I would lay into them.

Something like: "Yeah, I would not have paid you to do the job in the first place, if I knew you were incapable of doing the job right."

They are trying desperately to get out of being responsible for your re-timing work.

If they can't figure it out insist that they get the Yamaha support engineer involved. You are the customer, and you are always right.

Only technical question I have is, when they re-checked the timing after moving the chain by one tooth did they retension the chain completely? How did the intake cam look after? That's the only thing I can think of that could explain why it was off by a 1/2 a tooth. Nothing else would make sense. There is no being off by 1/2 a tooth.

You might also suggest that literally thousands of other paid mechanics are able to work on these bikes and get the timing correct.

 

[bhkfjr]

I think their reasoning is : If they rotate the exhaust sprocket to its in-time position, the cam chain then engages it and causes it to rotate " a little off". But it's not a little off, it's a tooth off. The intake cam and crank were still perfect and were in fact zip tied to prevent them from moving

The bike is now sitting at the dealer still apart. Crank at TDC, Intake sprocket lined up, Exhaust sprocket 1 tooth off in the opposite direction of where it was when I took it in.

The question is -- What should be done from this point on?? Service mgr. did call Yamaha and all they said was rotate the engine a few times and see if the chain settles in "more aligned on the exhaust sprocket"

 

[RadioHowie]

Those ******* ********!! (sorry folks, I just can't believe the dealer's response)

bhkfjr, send me a PM if you're interested in getting this straightened out WITHOUT the dealer's worthless input.

I'm planning a weekend trip to see a friend in the Florida Keys around Thanksgiving...maybe Thanksgiving weekend, maybe the week before. Haven't worked out the specifics yet. I know you hate being without your bike, but I'm guessing you rather wait and have it right. Personally I couldn't trust those guys as far as I could throw a Feej.

But if youve got some basic metric tools, we can get this thing done RIGHT!

Let me know if you want some "outside" help besides what we can do on the forum.

'Howie

 

[bhkfjr]

Thankyou Howie for your MOST generous offer. However my bike is all dissassembled on a lift and they are clueless as to what to do next except to ask "do you want it the way it was or the way it is now?" They actually need to be told what to do if I don't accept it as they have it!

What is the procedure from this point to get this timed right? I'm relying on the premise that if they knew what to do , they would do it, that they are just trying to do their job with limited resuorces (their brains), and we'd all like a positive outcome.

 

[FJRay]

What total ******* idiots. I can't believe they let people like that live through childhood. Go with Howies idea and do it right yourself. Hopefully they didn't roll it over with things way off or it could be real ugly. One way or the other get it out of their hands and get it right. after its right then take them a bill for stupidity.

 

[Patriot]

Seriously, if ya gonna try to get them to do it right this time and get out the door with a properly timed feej, print out Howie's pics and show them how it's supposed to look. Something is amiss and maybe that will be the "oh, ****" moment to see what's outta wack and they'll know how to fix it right and do so. I know, I know, dealing with Jack ***** can try one's patience, tolerance, and urge to murder.

get your photo level printer ready, maybe a service manual (they have one, don't they?), and print away:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...mp;#entry656371

 

[bhkfjr]

They know how it's supposed to look, they really just don't know how to do it

 

[dbvolfan]

Surely they have a YSM in hand right? One with the correct diagrams you can point out to them.

How about the shops owner? Ask him if he would be satisfied with that kind of response from some yahoo tearing down his engine?

 

[Canadian FJR]

You are one patient man, start raising **** with Yamaha USA on this one. After this is resolved, be sure to let us fine folks know who the dealer is so people can stay clear.

Canadian FJR

 

[SkooterG]

You are one patient man, start raising **** with Yamaha USA on this one. After this is resolved, be sure to let us fine folks know who the dealer is so people can stay clear.

+1

These guys are idiots, but won't admit it. Your not going to get any further with these tards. Get Yamaha corporate customer service involved. Be polite, but firm.

On a semi-related note, I was talking to my Yamaha Wrench guru the other day who has performed several valve adjustments on my FJR requiring removal of the cams and he told me he never checks the timing marks on the sprockets. All that is required to properly time them is lining up the dots on the cams to their respective marks.

 

[RadioHowie]

The way they time the FJR is they align the intake sprocket and the crank sprocket with the appropriate marks but since they can't see the exhaust arrows on that sprocket they just use the holes on the cam lobe.

Wrong-wrong-wrong! It can't be done that way because the ONLY way the intake cam can be in time with the crank is if ALL the slack is removed from the chain with the cam chain tensioner. The exhaust cam should be timed first. Here's why:

Let me see if I can explain this in a way it makes sense. The amount of slack in the chain run from the exhaust cam to the crank sprocket is "set", as in since the crank turns clockwise, there is aways tension on the chain run from the exhaust cam to the crank sproket when the motor is running. So with the crank sprocket set in the correct position:

...and the exhaust cam set in the correct position:

the exhaust cam is in "time." The chain doesn't have to be tensioned to get this right, it just must not have any slack in the run between the exhaust sprocket and the crank sprocket. So whoever is doing the job only has to make sure there is ZERO slack in the chain run between the exhaust cam and the crank.

Since ALL the slack is on the upward/return run to the intake cam, you can **** around with the intake cam all night long to get the marks line up without screwing up the exhaust-to-crank timing. Put the cam in where you think the marks line up, bolt down the cam holders, retension the chain and see if the timing marks on the intake cam have moved:

If the marks on the intake cam DON'T line up with the top of the head casting, since all the slack is on the intake side, it's a snap to de-tension the chain, lift the chain, put a wooden dowel in one of the sprocket holes and carefully tap on the dowel in the direction necessary to get the marks to line up. When it's all lined up, re-string the chain from the exhaust sprocket to the intake sprocket with NO slack in the chain, very easy to do, you just pull it tight and set it on the sprocket. All this fiddling about with the chain and intake cam should not have moved the exhaust cam or crank one little bit.

Take a look at the crank to make sure it hasn't moved, take a look at the exhaust sprocket marks to make sure they haven't moved, and take a look at the intake sprocket to make sure THEY haven't moved. Everything lining up? Release the cam chain tensioner to remove all the slack between the crank and intake cam and basically, that's it.

Turn the crank clockwise with a ratchet and rotate the motor 360 degrees and recheck all the marks. There's really no good reason everything won't line up correctly unless the cam chain tensioner isn't applying enough tension the the rear chain guide and something slipped. Then simply repeat the above procedure.

Well they got the valve cover off, got TDC on rotor, checked intake sprocket marks (perfect) but the hole on the exhaust cam lobe didn't line up. They said it was really close and did I want to change it? I told them to get a mirror and a straightedge ( HaulinAshe) so we can actually see the timing marks on the sprocket. A EUREKA MOMENT ! The exhaust cam sprocket is visibly off by a tooth! But this is actually a very shortlived victory.
They now are supposed to rotate the exhaust sprocket by one tooth and everything should line up the way it's supposed to--right? 10 min. later they call me back over and tell me they rotated the sprocket back by a tooth but now it's off by a tooth the OTHER way. (they say half a tooth) .

Can't happen. No way it can be off "half a tooth".....it's either in time, one full tooth ******** or one full tooth advanced.

In other words, if they line up the exhaust cam it will throw off the intake and the crank because the cam chain won't sit on all the sprockets lined up in time because of the spacing between links??

Words from a mechanic who either has never done it before or has never done it RIGHT before, and just got lucky.

I had to snip the rest of what you wrote they said to you because their arrogance and unwillingness to "make it right" pissed me off so much.

I got your PM and replied here so others in the forum could share. I just did this two weeks ago and learned the difference between doing it the hard way, the wrong way and the right way. The wrong way is to set the intake timing first. The hard way is to set the intake cam first and THEN try to **** the exhaust cam into time. The right way is to time the exhaust cam first, then the intake cam.

Just to refresh my memory and to make sure I wasn't completely full of crap (at least on this topic) the pictures you see above were taken this evening when I re-installed and re-timed the cams in my dead motor. Using what I learned in my cam chain replacement two weeks ago on my replacement motor, I was able to replace my cams and get them in time with the crank in less than 5 minutes. It's all in the technique. Crank lined up, exhaust cam lined up, about 30 seconds. Put the intake cam in, lined up the marks, put tension on the chain, and the intake cam rotated one tooth ********, EXACTLY what happened to me two weeks ago. Release the tension, lifted the chain, turned the intake cam clockwise one tooth, retensioned the CCT, BINGO! 2 minutes. Time it took to take the above pics between steps? About a minute and a half.

If you have lost all faith in your dealer, and can live without your Feej for a couple more weeks, let me make you an offer...if you can get your bike home, I ride my fat *** down there and do it for you for the price of exactly two Beef Supreme chalupas, a caramel apple empenada and a medium cherry Pepsi from Taco Bell. I'm a sucker for that place.

Here's the problem from my end.....I do play-by-play color and analysis of high school football for one of my radio stations and my Friday nights are tied up for at least the next two weeks. Unfortunately, for you, the school is undefeated, 3 state championships in the last 5 years, and the playoffs start November 20th. So unless they get bounced in the early rounds, I could be tied up with football broadcasts through Dec. 18th, so weekends could be a problem for me.

Depending on your schedule, it would be easier for me to come down during the week to get it done (the company owes me a shitload of time off) if you can arrange the time off to be there. You just have to get the bike home and let me know if you are interested in my exorbitant "fee". Got a couch I can crash on for a night? I'm not Bustanut, so your anus hairs are safe.

It's only a 3 1/2 hour ride down to your neck of the woods and I can pack all the "cam timing tools" I need.

Let me know if I can help.

'Howie

 

[HaulinAshe]

I sent a PM also with my cell number and basically the same thing as Howie's response above. Sorry to be late to the party.

The principle of timing is the same as Howie's adventure, but the circumstances are significantly different when the motor is in the frame.

Howie's pics and advise are dead-on. They'll have to figure a good way to get an accurate visual reference on the exhaust cam sprocket mark first. I used a narrow, shiny metal straight edge, dental mirror and flashlight. Without something "extra" for a visual reference, it's extremely hard to be confident about the alignment on the exhaust cam.

The tie-wrap around the exhaust sprocket once it's set right, is worth gold!

 

[RadioHowie]

I sent a PM also with my cell number and basically the same thing as Howie's response above. Sorry to be late to the party.
The principle of timing is the same as Howie's adventure, but the circumstances are significantly different when the motor is in the frame.

Howie's pics and advise are dead-on. They'll have to figure a good way to get an accurate visual reference on the exhaust cam sprocket mark first. I used a narrow, shiny metal straight edge, dental mirror and flashlight. Without something "extra" for a visual reference, it's extremely hard to be confident about the alignment on the exhaust cam.

The tie-wrap around the exhaust sprocket once it's set right, is worth gold!

I'd also add, that since it isn't right to begin with, pull the exhaust cam out of the motor and etch timing marks on the BACK of the sprocket with a Dremel cut-off wheel corresponding with the "nearly impossible to see when it's in the frame" marks on the front side. At the VERY least, a dot of paint or white-out would work in a pinch. You simply want to see the corresponding "valley" between teeth on the reverse side of the sprocket, but a mark cut into the sprocket would be permanent and would be a snap to line up with the cylinder head.

I did this with a "Sharpie" and obviously the black would be hard to see, but you can imagine the same thing with a dot of light colored paint or some of your significant other's "Paradise Pink" nail polish.

 

[bhkfjr]

Thankyou for all the timely replies to my plea for help!

If knowledge is power I will crush the demon service department and ride home a victor of the great timing war!

I'll update tomorrow, this ought to be good.

 

[TestPilot]

@Howie - what a great offer of assistance.

@bhkfjr - hope your problem is resolved real soon.

@Howie again - if ever I have problems in Australia expect to find an airplane ticket in the mail