Another Tick Question

[charismaticmegafauna]

jestal Posted on Feb 21 2006, 02:48 PM<snip>

That is the hard part....there isn't much you can do, really. If the seals are just too dry....If you REALLY are concerned....pull the cams Next, either replace the valve stem seal with the revised version or just pop the wire garter spring off the seal Or, poke a small hole in the exhaust valve stem seals to dribble more lube down the guide. That would make sure  Dissassembling and reassembling is going to be tedious....very tedious.....LOL.

Well, I imagine there are some FJR owners who are not REALLY concerned? If it's the *sure thing* you say it is? -- then it may be far preferable to remanufacturing the cylinder head (even if you had to pay for it out-of-pocket)? A pre-emptive operation such as you describe would seem a benefit to all FJRs -- just to make sure. Too bad there aren't better lube oils available so that the critical exhaust valve guide/stem interface could get lubed.

 

[Toecutter]

It usually boils down to a combination of clearances, prelube when the engine was build, operation schedule or duty cycle, etc.....
The valves and guides in an engine do not need much lube at all.  Once they break in they can run virtually dry.  If the engine was assembled at the factory with no prelube or inadequate or inappropriate prelube on the valve stems when brand new it could easily lead to some initial scuffing that snowballs into the failures seen.  I have seen this happen in other production applications so I know it can happen and ruin an otherwise perfectly designed system.

Thanks for the info Jestal. With it in mind I visited the shop today that's working on my bike. Asked them if the place they farm it out to for guide replacement was going to reassemble the head. Service manager said no, so I mentioned the prelube issue. He assured me that his tech is very capable and that would be taken care of. Hopefully, it will stay fixed once they're done.

 

[jestal]

. Too bad there aren't better lube oils available so that the critical exhaust valve guide/stem interface could get lubed.

The quality of the lube oil is not the issue....getting it into the exhaust valve guide is the problem. If the seals seal up too well and do not let enough oil into the interface of the exhuast valve stem/guide then simply improving the oil is not going to do anything. You would need to address the root cause of the problem...i.e...the "too dry" valve stem seals.

 

[markjenn]

So, without grasping at straws -- one would think the prudent FJR owner would want to take steps to ameliorate any potential problems by impacting those factors over which he or she does exert some influence -- like oil selection.

Okay, I'll bite. What oil do you put in your FJR that helps reduce the risk of excessive valve guide wear?

- Mark

 

[Geezer]

(snip) If the engine was assembled at the factory with no prelube or inadequate or inappropriate prelube on the valve stems when brand new it could easily lead to some initial scuffing that snowballs into the failures seen. (snip)

Now this really does make sense to me. We have seen examples of inadequate lube from the factory on other, more obvious parts. It could be as simple as some goober at the factory with a hangover on Monday morning not taking the trouble to lube the valves properly during installation. Or even a newbie who simply doesn't know how to do it correctly as he climbs the learning curve.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

markjenn Posted on Feb 22 2006, 02:17 AM

Okay, I'll bite. What oil do you put in your FJR that helps reduce the risk of excessive valve guide wear?

You don't really want to go there, do you? Oil discussions can get really derailed. But, it is something we can do something about and maybe some research in that area will turn up something that will aid the problem? It may not be easy -- as jestal indicates (in previous other posts) the oil arena is contaminated with special interest and scam -- but, lubrication is an integral part of this equation and one I feel shouldn't be ignored ("there's nothing we can do"). Otherwise, as jestal (also) has pointed out, we're relegated to either: pre-emptive action of modifying or replacing the exh. valve guide oil seals; or just have the cyl. head rebuilt when the "tick" rears its ugly head. Unless and until someone opens the door -- we're all stuck in the room....

 

[Scab]

Yep, mentioning oil around here will get more knots put on your head than try to make an up-skirt video at wallyworld.

 

[Feejer/Weejer man]

I looked at the head disassembled on my ticker and the #4 cylinder had probably twice the build up as the #1 cylinder. The #2 and #3 were similar and less than the #1 by far. There shoots the #1 and #2 being the culprits. But I rode mine almost 15,000 before getting the tick fixed for various reasons, one until Yamaha acknowledged the tick and has a system to work within to get it fixed. So maybe those that don't see the build up on the other side have their's fixed sooner. It might take more time for the #3 and #4 cylinders to fail. So by the way it sounds there is no rhyme or reason why some do and some don't. There seems to be no common ground for one to tick except that it ticks.

 

[SkooterG]

What do yo mean by build-up? Not sure if that has any bearing or not. What you need to be looking for is excessive valve guide clearance, or play between the valve and guide.

 

[Feejer/Weejer man]

Well the clearances will determine how much oil blow by there is by the exhaust valves. So it tells me the carbon build up in the #4 cylinder was worse than the others. I was very substantial in the head ports leading to the headers in the 4 and 1 holes. I don't know what all this means just that was the evidence that exists. Plus if you run a PC take it off before you take the FJR in for repair or diagnoisis. Damn do we have spell check on here.

 

[jestal]

Well the clearances will determine how much oil blow by there is by the exhaust valves. So it tells me the carbon build up in the #4 cylinder was worse than the others. I was very substantial in the head ports leading to the headers in the 4 and 1 holes. I don't know what all this means just that was the evidence that exists. Plus if you run a PC take it off before you take the FJR in for repair or diagnoisis. Damn do we have spell check on here.

I don't doubt your observations but I think you may be drawing the wrong conclusions if I understand your comment. The buildup of carbon from oil coming down the guide is a result of the guide wearing severely and that then causing the valve stem seal to be unseated somewhat as the stem moves around laterally and allowing more oil down the guide. Too bad it is too late to do any good. I still think the original damage was done by little or no oil or lubrication in the exhaust guides causing scuffing and material transfer to the stem which then acts like a file and slowly degrades the guide. As the guide deteriorates the clearance goes up, the stem starts to wobble and THEN the stem seal cannot control the oil and a great deal (relatively speaking) starts to get pulled down the guide causing deposits and smoke. If the clearance were to remain small (as built) and adequate oil were to be applied to the interface you would see relativley low pullover down the guide due to the small clearance. The large clearance (caused by wear) exacerbates oil pullover down the guide.

So...I would tend to ignore the amount of deposit buildup as an indication of the oil going down the guide BEFORE the failure.

The engines that I measured and examined parts from had less wear and clearance in the guides (after the failure) on the left side of the engine and progressively got worse across the engine from left to right. Number 1 looked the "best" and nuber 4 looked the "worst" but they all looked pretty bad.

 

[jestal]

So, without grasping at straws -- one would think the prudent FJR owner would want to take steps to ameliorate any potential problems by impacting those factors over which he or she does exert some influence -- like oil selection.

Okay, I'll bite. What oil do you put in your FJR that helps reduce the risk of excessive valve guide wear?

- Mark

I don't think it will matter. I feel that I am at just as great a risk of a ticker eventually on my 03 as anyone will be. No way to counteract the problem I am theroizing with oil that I know of.

I use the conventional (non-synthetic) Delvac HD, 15W40, "diesel oil" , BTW. Great stuff. Not that it will help prevent the ticks, though.

 

[Toecutter]

I use the conventional (non-synthetic) Delvac HD, 15W40, "diesel oil" , BTW.  Great stuff.  Not that it will help prevent the ticks, though.

Two questions:

1. Where does one get the stuff cheapest? I've been using the Rotella Syn.

2. Recommended change interval? I assume you've done some analyses and have a good idea of when it wears out.

 

[fretbender]

I just want mine fixed.

 

[SkooterG]

I use the conventional (non-synthetic) Delvac HD, 15W40, "diesel oil" , BTW.   Great stuff.   Not that it will help prevent the ticks, though.

Two questions:

1. Where does one get the stuff cheapest? I've been using the Rotella Syn.

2. Recommended change interval? I assume you've done some analyses and have a good idea of when it wears out.

Probably equally as good, and I bet Jestal will agree, is the Rotella T 15W-40 (non-syn) Basically identical to the Delvac 1300 Jestal mentioned above. It's Shell's version of a heavy duty diesel oil. Its what I use and is available at Walmart for $7.68 for 4 quart container.

And I'll bet you a dollar that Jestal will tell you to change your oil at the manufacturer's recommended interval.

See Jestal, I have been a good student. :lol:

 

[jestal]

Based on the specs and reputations of the manufacturers involved I would put the Delvac/Delo/Shell Rotella on equal footing for performance. Any of those can be found in most discount stores in gallon jugs.

I would tend to agree with the manufacturer's recommendation for change intervals ....but..... The thing that "bothers" me about Yamaha's one-size-fits-all change recommendation is that I know from on-the-job training that there is no single oil change recommendation that fits everyone's driving/riding schedule. From all the data that has been collected on engines of all types it is clear that short trip operation tends to contaminate the oil and lead to acid buildup and fuel and oil contamination. Very hot weather operation leads to more rapid oxidation of the oil. Long trip/highway miles is very easy on the oil and the oil life will generally be limited by the depletion of the additive package.

Since Yamaha gives only one recommended change interval I assume that they have quite a bit of safety factor built into the change interval for a lot of the owners and their operating schedules. So....for day to day use and short trips I would probably stick relatively close to the recommended change interval. For long trips and all highway miles I don't see much risk personally in stretching the change interval to 5000 or 6000 miles...or even a little further if necessary. If I take the bike to the track in hot weather I would probably change it after every track event just in case the oil did get above 305 F causing some excessive oxidation. If I rode a lot of short hops in cold weather I would probably change it every 1000 miles or more often.

So....I actually change my oil pretty much when I think it needs it....LOL. Your results may vary. You cannot go wrong with Yamaha's recommendation I would say but I suspect that there is a lot of wiggle room in their recommendation for certain operating conditions that are easier on the oil than others.

That is why GM developed the oil life monitor. It is absolutely impossible to provide a single oil change interval that fits everyone's operating conditions. The oil life monitor reacts to the individual driver's operating schedule and duty cycle and custom tailers the oil change interval for that customer on the fly using real time data and the oil life model developed. Without that, Yamaha is stuck with a single recommendation that cannot possibly account for all situations without having a lot of safety factor built in. So, I feel pretty comfortable applying the principles developed for the oil life monitor and "manually" applying them to my FJR's operating schedule.

 

[Toecutter]

Thanks for the info. I went out and picked up some of the Delvac today. Something about that 1300 on the label just seemed like destiny to me. One other thing comes to mind: Since it's a diesel oil is it possible that it contains more ZDP than the stuff spec'd for gasoline motors? Sorry if it's been covered before, there's been a bunch of info to keep up with on all these oil discussions.

 

[SkooterG]

Thanks for the info. I went out and picked up some of the Delvac today. Something about that 1300 on the label just seemed like destiny to me. One other thing comes to mind: Since it's a diesel oil is it possible that it contains more ZDP than the stuff spec'd for gasoline motors? Sorry if it's been covered before, there's been a bunch of info to keep up with on all these oil discussions.

No more ZDP in the diesel oils. They are still rated for gasoline engines also, and the zinc in ZDP theoretically kills the CAT after so long a period of time. Since manufacturers now have to warranty the CAT for like 100k miles or so, they cannot raise the anti-wear zinc additives in the oil, and I believe have actually reduced it over the last several years.

All that I learned from Jestal, so I am sure he will bitchslap me if I got any of it incorrect.

Have you read the Jestal EZboard oil thread lately? Most excellent info. Tell you what...... to make it even more fun, have Eve read you Jestal's oil thread before bed time while dressed in her ...........umm..........you prolly get the picture.

 

[Toecutter]

Have you read the Jestal EZboard oil thread lately?  Most excellent info.  Tell you what...... to make it even more fun, have Eve read you Jestal's oil thread before bed time while dressed in her ...........umm..........you prolly get the picture.

Great idea! We'll get right on that. You will, of course, get full credit for the suggestion.

 

[jestal]

From what I have seen the HD diesel oils DO have a little more ZDP in them....and while they are OK for gasoline engines they are NOT officially rated for gasoline engines per ILSAC.

They are indeed OK for gasoline engines as I have indicated.....but.....notice that the Delo/Delvac/Rotella oils do NOT have the starburst symbol indicating that they are "officially OK" for gasoline engines?? That is because of the lack of friction modifiers and the additional ZDP. Those oils are not going to meet all the diesel specs that they do without more ZDP in them. Sorry. Just cannot. Notice that the starburst "gasoline engine" oils do not meet the diesel specs?? That's why.

The ZDP does hurt the catalyst (theoretically, anyway....practically speaking the cat will live a long long time eating the little amount of phosphorus in the ZDP) the main reason that there is not more of it in "gasoline engine" oil is because ZDP is very very expensive. With the cost competitiveness of gasoline engine oil marketing no one who markets starburst symbol gasoline engine oil is going to put anymore ZDP in the oil than is absolutely necessary to meet the minimum wear requirements. And modern gasoline car engines could care less due to the extensive use of roller rockers, roller cams, etc.....

Diesels are a different matter. Many of them still have rubbing element lifters and cam followers and the diesel oil gets heavily contaminated by soot. Both require more antiwear protection...i.e..more ZDP....to meet the requirements.

You can bet that diesel oils have more ZDP....guaranteed. Cost of the oil is not nearly such an issue with diesel operators due to the cost of the equipment. The Delo/Delvac/Rotella is not particularily cheap compared to "gasoline engine" oil....

Similarily, as indicated above, the high mileage oils and extended service oils are more expensive and do NOT meet the "starburst" rating for "official use" in gasoline engines. That is because of the extra ZDP added to make sure that it is not depleted during extended service.

Note that the GM oil life indicator is developed specifically for each engine it is installed on. Just because one engine will go a certain distance on an oil change does not mean a different design engine will. Each engine family and each engine design has a specific calibration for the oil life monitor to accurately reflect when THAT specific engine needs to have the oil changed.

Engines evolve with time. Northstar engines used to have the maximum oil change interval on the oil life monitor capped at 7500 miles. The engine changed with roller followers and other items and the oil improved. The Northstar sold today will easily go 12,500 on an oil change in light duty, long trip operation. That doesn't mean that a 1998 Northstar can go that far. It is capped at 7500 per the oil life monitor system that was on a 1998 Cadillac. THat engine still needs the oil changed at 7500 max due to the 32 rubbing element tappets that it still has. Making conclusions about what is acceptable with the oil life monitor does not necessarily mean that you can apply one reading to all engines...