Anyone seen this electrical anomaly?

[FrankD]

Started a couple days ago intermittently and seems to not fall into the "ignore it and it'll go away" bucket.

Everything seems normal in the RUN position. When I start the bike, the hi-beam indicator and the turn signal indicators are both lit. The headlights do not come on (lo or hi beam). Engine seems to run just fine. Checked the battery voltage --> 12.3 not running and 14.1 running. Doesn't seem too far from normal. Any thoughts?

I don't want to run out and start replacing stuff (like the battery) without understanding cause and effect.

 

[Snudge]

Sounds like the ground spider under the glove box. Cut the terminal block off and solder all six wires together, it won't look pretty but will cure the problem.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

That indicated a main ground fault on my eurotrash. Sounds like Snudge's suggestion is a good bet.

 

[Fred W]

+1 - Sounds like classic ground spider problem. Lots of info on the forum about it.

Google "Ground Spider site:FJRForum.com"

 

[RossKean]

As mentioned above, it is almost certainly a grounding problem. The most likely is the so-called "S-4" although problems have been reported for others. There was a recall on the S-4 "spider" for the earlier Gen II but I do not know whether this extended to '09. Hope you find it!! It may be intermittent at this point, but it is NOT going to improve or go away.

 

[LCB]

This is the EXACT same thing that happened to my bike last week - everyone suggested the ground spider issue even though I had the recall work done. Haven't had the time to tear into the bike yet but I'll be keeping an eye on this thread...

Did your windscreen stop working too?

 

[RossKean]

This is the EXACT same thing that happened to my bike last week - everyone suggested the ground spider issue even though I had the recall work done. Haven't had the time to tear into the bike yet but I'll be keeping an eye on this thread...
Did your windscreen stop working too?

The recall only applied to ONE of the spiders. There is one other that is quite common (designated S-6, I think). IIRC, S-7 has been reported for a few. There is also at least one non-spider connector that has had ground-related issues.

These are a nuisance and can be quite frustrating to deal with. Have a look here - describes the issue I had but also includes info from others including a spider diagram. Lots of info on the forum...

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/158418-itsy-bitsy-spider/?hl=itsy

 

[ionbeam]

...The recall only applied to ONE of the spiders. There is one other that is quite common (designated S-6, I think). IIRC, S-7 has been reported for a few. There is also at least one non-spider connector that has had ground-related issues....These are a nuisance and can be quite frustrating to deal with...

Some background on why only one spider was part of the recall. I met with the investigating NHTSA inspector Bob Young from Maryland at BkrK12's garage where we used his Gen II as a representative sample. We went through all the spiders looking at the design and corrosion then we took lots of pictures of the damage. We went through the schematic and then went back through BkrK12's bike and simulated spider failures by simply pulling the shorting pins out. Some of the spiders that were corroded caused operational issues with the signaling, lighting and engine function. Bob explained that the NHTSA doesn't care about anything but the ground connector(s) which they determine effects the safety of the motorcycle and rider. Items like turn signals, headlight/brake lights and unexpected engine shutdown would result in a recall of those connectors only. The NHTSA doesn't care if your glove box stops working or your windshield stops working.

It's interesting that Bob initially read about the grounding problems here on this Forum. He was planning to use the term "spider" in his correspondence with Yamaha but he was quite surprised when I told him that "spider" is a term made up here on the Forum and not an actual technical term. I suggested that he use some other alternative description like "ground shorting bar".

Bob did have dialog with Yamaha and it was decided that only a limited 'fix' was needed for critical safety function. The dealer would rework the S4 spider because all other spiders are fed through this connector, if it goes bad everything else downstream would stop working correctly. If the S4 connector was already heat distorted or damaged the entire harness would be replaced. All other spiders are connected in a daisy chain, one connected to the next connected to the next. Connector S6 then S7 would be the next most common spiders to slag from current draw and the resulting heat.

Report Date : July 5, 2011 at 10:32 AMSearch Type : VEHICLE

Make: YAMAHA

Model or Model No.: FJR1300

Model Year: 2009

Make: YAMAHA Model: FJR1300

Model Year: 2009

Manufacturer: YAMAHA MOTOR CORPORATION, USA Mfr's Report Date: JUN 24, 2011

NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 11V338000 N/A

NHTSA Action Number: N/A

Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:WIRING

Summary:

YAMAHA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2006-2009 FJR1300 MOTORCYCLES MANUFACTURED FROM FEBRUARY 2006, THROUGH MARCH 2009. THE GROUND JOINT CONNECTOR OF THE WIRE HARNESS COULD OVERHEAT AND BECOME DEFORMED, POSSIBLY CAUSING AN INTERMITTENT GROUND WIRE CONNECTION. IF THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM IS NOT PROPERLY GROUNDED, THE IGNITION SYSTEM AND/OR OTHER ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS COULD MALFUNCTION, WHICH COULD CAUSE THE ENGINE TO STALL.

Consequence:

IF THE MOTORCYCLE STALLS WHILE BEING RIDDEN, THERE COULD BE A CRASH RESULTING IN INJURY OR DEATH.

Remedy:

YAMAHA DEALER WILL INSTALL AN ADDITIONAL WIRE SUB-LEAD OR, IF THE GROUND JOINT CONNECTOR HAS ALREADY BEEN DAMAGED FROM OVERHEATING, DEALERS WILL INSTALL A NEW MAIN WIRE HARNESS. THIS SERVICE WILL BE PERFORMED FREE OF CHARGE. THE SAFETY RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING JULY 2011. OWNERS MAY CONTACT YAMAHA AT 1-800-962-7926.

 

[FrankD]

This is the EXACT same thing that happened to my bike last week - everyone suggested the ground spider issue even though I had the recall work done. Haven't had the time to tear into the bike yet but I'll be keeping an eye on this thread...
Did your windscreen stop working too?

LCB --> Haven't checked the windscreen yet. Or the glovebox or the AUX outlet, but I will this weekend when I tear into it. The spider diagram found in the post that RossKean linked to will go a long long way to shorten the garaged portion of the w/e. Figure it's either the S6 or S7. I'll check with Yamaha to see if the S4 recall was done (bought it used).

This is the EXACT same thing that happened to my bike last week - everyone suggested the ground spider issue even though I had the recall work done. Haven't had the time to tear into the bike yet but I'll be keeping an eye on this thread...
Did your windscreen stop working too?

The recall only applied to ONE of the spiders. There is one other that is quite common (designated S-6, I think). IIRC, S-7 has been reported for a few. There is also at least one non-spider connector that has had ground-related issues.

These are a nuisance and can be quite frustrating to deal with. Have a look here - describes the issue I had but also includes info from others including a spider diagram. Lots of info on the forum...

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/158418-itsy-bitsy-spider/?hl=itsy

RossKean --> Super helpful! Exactly the guidance I was hoping for. Many thanks.

All --> By far, this is the most technically informed and helpful forum I've ever engaged with. Thx to all that contribute their knowledge and experience.

 

[Fred W]

In other words, the official recall modification is not adequate to eliminate the entire spider problem.

Maybe a more comprehensive, unofficial solution is in order?

 

[Harald]

In other words, the official recall modification is not adequate to eliminate the entire spider problem.
Maybe a more comprehensive, unofficial solution is in order?

We have a couple pinned threads to track new failures on bike affected by the recall:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/139511-fjrf0093-spider-failures-other-than-s4-research/

and also 2010 and newer bikes that were supposedly fixed from the factory:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/161335-fjrf0094-spiderintermittent-ground-wire-failures-2010-and-later-research/

(This reminds me that I should go through both threads to get a current tally and update the first page for quick reference)

A better fix from Yamaha would be nice, but I think that maintenance would go a long way toward avoiding future problems. After my S7 spider failure 6 years and 80,000 miles ago, I cut that spider off and soldered all the wires together. I also cleaned and packed all other spiders connections with dielectric grease. I have had no problems since then related to spiders, but I plan on rechecking and regreasing those connectors the next time I'm in there.

 

[Fred W]

The recall doesn't fix any but one single spider connection. All the others can fail at any time, and actually the one they "fixed" could still fail. Which means that this can affect 2010 and later bikes too, possibly even 3rd Gen bikes when they get enough time and miles on them.

A wiring harness is not something that you would expect to require regular maintenance on any vehicle. With the exception of lead battery terminals, properly designed electrical connectors do not corrode and go bad at any point over the lifetime of the product when used as intended.

When I suggested a more comprehensive fix for these, I meant something that could be packaged up so people could install it and never have to worry about the crappy spider connection design again.

 

[ionbeam]

The '15 ES schematic shows one primary power ground wire coming off the battery and going to 5 different single point tie connections (not spider connectors) with multiple wires going to each tie point. The stator also has one ground wire going to one of the single point ground connections. The low current grounds go through 4 ground couplers like the Gen II. Being low current this vastly improves reliability. The ECU low voltage signal grounds go through one ground coupler. The ABS ECU has its own ground run directly off the battery and the Suspension Control Unit (SCU) comes off one tie point and goes to one Gen II type ground coupler to create 2 separate ground wires which only go to the SCU.

I don't know what the primary power tie points look like (yet), if the tie points are done solidly then my '15 ES has a good and reliable ground system. The '15 schematic depicts the single point grounds the same way the Gen I showed the stator connections at the starter relay. The starter relay had threaded studs onto which wires with ring lugs were attached and then screwed up secured by a nut.

I haven't seen a non ES schematic so I don't know if the rest of the Gen III family shares the same grounding system. Can anyone help me with a non ES schematic?

 

[SkooterG]

You mean like Brodie's wiring harness?

Well, unfortunately I received the last one. Neener, neener, neener.

 

[Fred W]

I thought that I read where someone had visually found that the third gens have the same (ridiculous) ground spiders in their harnesses? I know that my Suzuki Vstrom has them too. They seem to be some sort of common Asian harness design "feature" and must serve some purpose in the design or manufacturing troubleshooting process?

Yes, something more permanent that eliminates the problem like the Brodie Harness. I guess those folks that have lopped them off and soldered the bundles together have shown another repair option.

 

[RossKean]

Lopping them off and soldering works but nobody can accuse Yamaha of wasting too much wire at any point in the harness. I have run into wire shortage for everything from spiders and spark plug wires to lamp sockets and battery cables. Not much room to work; especially if you have to cut it off and go back a cm or so to uncooked wire before stripping and tying everything together. Not to mention the difficulty of sealing out the elements afterward...

 

[ionbeam]

I thought that I read where someone had visually found that the third gens have the same (ridiculous) ground spiders in their harnesses?...

Someone had previously mentioned that the Gen III does have spiders. There are 4 low current ground spiders for general use, a spider dedicated for the Suspension Control Unit, a spider for low voltage ECU sensor ground as well as a +5 volt spider for the ECU sensors. Outside that there are 5 single point ground ties for higher current use, one tie point connects directly to the battery and another tie point connects directly to the stator.

 

[mcatrophy]

I posted some pictures of spiders I'd found on my 2014 here.

This was by no means a comprehensive list, just some I'd come across. I don't think any of these were grounds, but they could still cause significant problems if they get corrosion in them.

 

[DrWing]

Foe what it's worth.

Started having this problem a couple of weeks ago. Same symptoms. On for a while then everything went back to normal. After the fourth time dash lights stayed on, Turn signals and high beam, horn and wind screen stopped working and turn signals would just flutter.

Checked all the connections and I couldn't find a thing. Took it to the dealer, OUCH!!!!!!!!

A pin had come loose and was arching on the front left wire harness. Soldered ground outside. All seems to be well now. This might give you a starting point check out. Hope you find that nasty bugger.

Harlan