Anyone use the rear brake?

[mcatrophy]

... Also for Gen II model to get the full stopping power of the front calipers you must apply the rear brakes to operate that 3rd piston. ...

Then how come you can activate the front brake's ABS on a perfect surface with just the front brake lever? You can get all you need on the front from just the front brake. The rear-to-front is added to increase stability if you use significant rear braking.

... Someone was mentioning what would happen when braking hard in a corner with the ABS. The bike has a lean sensor, so if it's lean over the ABS will not activate. ...

Please explain the logic of this? I know the bike has a tip-over sensor to shut off the engine if you drop it, but why on earth would you want to stop the ABS from functioning if the bike's leant over in a corner? Surely that's when losing traction is more likely, so you want the ABS to operate to try to maintain some tyre grip?

 

[twistedcricket]

Just cause I am ornery, I am going to disagree about using the rear brake all the time will help in an emergency situation. For me it's exactly the opposite. The more I use the rear brake in everyday riding, the more likely I am to lock the rear in a panic/emergency situation as the rear is now unweighted a lot more than 'normal'.

I can't believe that anyone I'll agree with SkooterG; I use the rear almost exclusively. I only pull the front lever when I need to set both feet down to stabilize the bike (windy, sloped) or in those "oh, right your turn signal gives you the right-of-way" moments.

 

[jordylad]

I'll agree with SkooterG; I use the rear almost exclusively.

I don't think that's what SkooterG said.

Besides, using the rear brake "almost exclusively" is a bad "novice rider" habit that needs to be broken ASAP, preferable before the first accident.

80% (or more) of a motorcycles stopping power is with the front brake, it's a really good idea to learn how to use that before you need most of it.

 

[Bike Effects]

Don't normally use it. I quit having "Awe ****" moments in the twisties when I quit using the rear.

I find that under hard front breaking in twisties if your in the right gear, compression breaking can pretty relaibly take the place of the rear break. In fact as the weight of the bike gets tossed over the front end you can start to loose rearend traction.

I used to use the rear brake (or mis-used it as someone pointed out) until I attended California Superbike School. They would bust your *** there if they saw you using the rear brake. I adopted their technique and been happy since. In a controlled environment using the rear brake will usually result in a shorter stopping distance, but it adds one more task to my overloaded brain.

 

[CHRIS_D]

... Also for Gen II model to get the full stopping power of the front calipers you must apply the rear brakes to operate that 3rd piston. ...

Then how come you can activate the front brake's ABS on a perfect surface with just the front brake lever? You can get all you need on the front from just the front brake. The rear-to-front is added to increase stability if you use significant rear braking.



I never said anything about losing ABS. Yes you can stop with just your front brake and activate the ABS. However the rear brake is integrated with the front, so there's one piston in the caliper that is strictly used by the rear brake. All I'm saying if you don't use the rear brake you lose out on your max braking potential which would be provided by using all 3 pistons in the front caliber. By the way, on a dry surface you will stop a hell of lot quicker by NOT activating the ABS during a quick stop. This is what I practice (to stop as quick as I can and not activate the abs) when I do my quick stops.

... Someone was mentioning what would happen when braking hard in a corner with the ABS. The bike has a lean sensor, so if it's lean over the ABS will not activate. ...

Please explain the logic of this? I know the bike has a tip-over sensor to shut off the engine if you drop it, but why on earth would you want to stop the ABS from functioning if the bike's leant over in a corner? Surely that's when losing traction is more likely, so you want the ABS to operate to try to maintain some tyre grip?

The logic is this.. It sounds like you practice doing quick stops which is a great thing to do. So you know that the ABS system senses the brakes locking up then pulsates them to prevent them from being locked up. However in all times I have practiced straight line braking causing the ABS to activate, it has made the bike real jerky and actually a bit unstable. This is because it's constantly releasing the brakes and then reapplying them to prevent the wheels from locking up. In straight line braking it's no big deal because you are going straight and 100% of the available traction is there for the tires. Now imagine this same scenario while you are leaned over in a corner. Remember cornering takes a percentage of the overall available traction to get around a corner, so If you apply max braking while lean over the ABS now doesn't have its typical 100% of the tire's available traction which would cause the bike to be unstable and lose traction as the ABS pulsates. Anyway this is my opinion and if someone else can explain it better, please do.

 

[monk69]

'bryguy322' Bike only has a little over 5K on it, don't know why it would squeal.

Take the pad off and very lightly take a file to the leading edge of the pad ....file the edge so as to have the finished pad the same as if you cut a small piece off the corner of a sheet of paper

 

[cougar8000]

I used to use the rear brake (or mis-used it as someone pointed out) until I attended California Superbike School. They would bust your *** there if they saw you using the rear brake. I adopted their technique and been happy since. In a controlled environment using the rear brake will usually result in a shorter stopping distance, but it adds one more task to my overloaded brain.

Great :dribble:

The whole idea of practicing using BOTH brakes is that you do not need to think about it while in the OH **** moment. I would go further that most people simply do not have brain power to really THINK while in the OH **** moment and simply reacting based on what they have learned.

This said, why would they teach you not to use it? Specially on the GEN II bike.

 

[mcatrophy]

... Also for Gen II model to get the full stopping power of the front calipers you must apply the rear brakes to operate that 3rd piston. ...

Then how come you can activate the front brake's ABS on a perfect surface with just the front brake lever? You can get all you need on the front from just the front brake. The rear-to-front is added to increase stability if you use significant rear braking.



I never said anything about losing ABS. Yes you can stop with just your front brake and activate the ABS. However the rear brake is integrated with the front, so there's one piston in the caliper that is strictly used by the rear brake. All I'm saying if you don't use the rear brake you lose out on your max braking potential which would be provided by using all 3 pistons in the front caliber. By the way, on a dry surface you will stop a hell of lot quicker by NOT activating the ABS during a quick stop. This is what I practice (to stop as quick as I can and not activate the abs) when I do my quick stops.

... Someone was mentioning what would happen when braking hard in a corner with the ABS. The bike has a lean sensor, so if it's lean over the ABS will not activate. ...

Please explain the logic of this? I know the bike has a tip-over sensor to shut off the engine if you drop it, but why on earth would you want to stop the ABS from functioning if the bike's leant over in a corner? Surely that's when losing traction is more likely, so you want the ABS to operate to try to maintain some tyre grip?

The logic is this.. It sounds like you practice doing quick stops which is a great thing to do. So you know that the ABS system senses the brakes locking up then pulsates them to prevent them from being locked up. However in all times I have practiced straight line braking causing the ABS to activate, it has made the bike real jerky and actually a bit unstable. This is because it's constantly releasing the brakes and then reapplying them to prevent the wheels from locking up. In straight line braking it's no big deal because you are going straight and 100% of the available traction is there for the tires. Now imagine this same scenario while you are leaned over in a corner. Remember cornering takes a percentage of the overall available traction to get around a corner, so If you apply max braking while lean over the ABS now doesn't have its typical 100% of the tire's available traction which would cause the bike to be unstable and lose traction as the ABS pulsates. Anyway this is my opinion and if someone else can explain it better, please do.

Chris_d -

As far as "100%" is concerned, I think we are getting into a semantic (and therefor pointless) argument. I think you are saying that using all pads on the front discs (which needs the back brake operation to achieve) gives more brake pad friction than just the front brake lever's pads. I agree with this. My point of argument is that there is all the friction you can use with just the front brake lever's pads, I only mentioned ABS operating to show that you have reached (and passed) the maximum grip available from tyre to road, and so the maximum retardation the front system (levers, pads, tyre, road surface) can give.

As for the ABS usage argument, I agree retardation can be greater before ABS cuts in, and when I practice hard braking, I try to judge when it will cut in. I'm not sure about stopping "a hell of lot quicker" without ABS. I would refer you to a test on ABS, done some time ago, but I think still relevant, click here. I found it very interesting reading.

The other point about cornering, firstly I don't find my ABS jerky. The first time I got it to operate I wasn't even sure it had. It was remarkably smooth, certainly compared with my car, simply modulating the braking rather than cutting it in and out. And, as for my question on cornering with ABS operating, some years ago when ABS was not common on family cars, Ford had a TV advert showing a car braking hard and also steering round a tractor emerging from a field. The point was that steering control was maintained during very hard braking, on a muddy country road. What I wanted to know was if this was true with a motorbike.

Surely if you are cornering using less than 100% of the tyre's adhesion then there is some left for braking (as the whole of this thread implies). The question is, as braking increases to the point of slipping, does the ABS make the tyre just run wider (as it does with a car), or will it actually make it lose all grip? Has anyone had any experience of braking while cornering to the point of ABS operation, or conversely trying to steer while fully braking (I suspect a very hard thing to do)?

 

[CHRIS_D]

Chris_d -
As for the ABS usage argument, I agree retardation can be greater before ABS cuts in, and when I practice hard braking, I try to judge when it will cut in. I'm not sure about stopping "a hell of lot quicker" without ABS. I would refer you to a test on ABS, done some time ago, but I think still relevant, click here. I found it very interesting reading.

If you take two bikes with equal braking, weight etc. One with ABS the other without. If you take the stopping distance of both bikes by appling the brakes correctly on the non-abs (continue to squeeze the front progressively but firmly allowing for the weight shift etc) and then stop the ABS model by just instantly grabbing and stomping (which now you're depending on ABS to stop you), the non ABS model WILL out brake the ABS model every time. DISCLAIMER: This is on DRY pavement only. WET is a different story.

The other point about cornering, firstly I don't find my ABS jerky. The first time I got it to operate I wasn't even sure it had. It was remarkably smooth, certainly compared with my car, simply modulating the braking rather than cutting it in and out. And, as for my question on cornering with ABS operating, some years ago when ABS was not common on family cars, Ford had a TV advert showing a car braking hard and also steering round a tractor emerging from a field. The point was that steering control was maintained during very hard braking, on a muddy country road. What I wanted to know was if this was true with a motorbike.

OK I pulled out the owner's manual and the service manual. As far as I can tell I'm wrong about the ABS not activating in while leaned over. THE ABS WILL STILL WORK!!!. :dribble: :blink:

Surely if you are cornering using less than 100% of the tyre's adhesion then there is some left for braking (as the whole of this thread implies). The question is, as braking increases to the point of slipping, does the ABS make the tyre just run wider (as it does with a car), or will it actually make it lose all grip? Has anyone had any experience of braking while cornering to the point of ABS operation, or conversely trying to steer while fully braking (I suspect a very hard thing to do)?

When all else fails read the directions I read the discription of Yamaha's ABS in the service manual (pg 1-8) here's Yamaha's note:

The higher the side force on a tire, the less traction there is available for braking. This is true whether the vehicle is equipped with ABS or not. Therefore, sudden braking while cornering is not recommended. Excessive side force, which ABS cannot prevent, could cause the tire to slip sideways.

Bottom line: You would be crazy to try this in a corner.

 

[cougar8000]

I ave never gotten to this point, but theory tells me that you will low side if you are turning/leaning over and apply so much pressure that ABS has to kick in. Tracing the line requires 100% of the grip. How much of grip is left to do your braking?

P.S. Chris beat me to it.

 

[Bounce]

On my Gen 1 I use the rear brake but am more conscious about using it than on previous bikes. I'll use it to settle the suspension when setting up for a curve but when stopping (normal or emergency) I use both f/r equally at first and then feather off the rear as the bike's weight shifts forward. There may be a 70/30 split on braking force (f/r) but I'll take that extra 30% any time I can.

 

[Harald]

The other point about cornering, firstly I don't find my ABS jerky. The first time I got it to operate I wasn't even sure it had. It was remarkably smooth, certainly compared with my car, simply modulating the braking rather than cutting it in and out.

I'm wondering if only your rear ABS was activating? I've tried the ABS on my 07 on a wet road using only front or rear brakes individually. The rears are remarkably smooth with ABS engaged while stomping on the rear brake. The front is a whole 'nuther animal. Stabbing the front brake on a wet road leads to front end dive and then pulsing of the brakes and the whole front end as the ABS does it's thing. No way would I want that happening while leaned over in a turn.

 

[HaulinAshe]

I used to use the rear brake (or mis-used it as someone pointed out) until I attended California Superbike School. They would bust your *** there if they saw you using the rear brake. I adopted their technique and been happy since. In a controlled environment using the rear brake will usually result in a shorter stopping distance, but it adds one more task to my overloaded brain.

That's exactly the type of instruction that I am so opposed to. Why teach someone how to ignore up to 30% of their braking power and a boatload of other very useful braking options?

Somewhere, somehow, somebody along the way decided that the risks outweigh the potential benefits. I simply DO NOT AGREE with that thinking.

I say teach riders to use every option they have available in a controlled and rehearsed manner.

"Practice makes perfect and can save your life!" That's my motto.

 

[Checkswrecks]

I used to use the rear brake (or mis-used it as someone pointed out) until I attended California Superbike School. They would bust your *** there if they saw you using the rear brake. I adopted their technique and been happy since. In a controlled environment using the rear brake will usually result in a shorter stopping distance, but it adds one more task to my overloaded brain.

That's exactly the type of instruction that I am so opposed to. Why teach someone how to ignore up to 30% of their braking power and a boatload of other very useful braking options?

Somewhere, somehow, somebody along the way decided that the risks outweigh the potential benefits. I simply DO NOT AGREE with that thinking.

I say teach riders to use every option they have available in a controlled and rehearsed manner.

"Practice makes perfect and can save your life!" That's my motto.

Unfortunatley, most people don't practice, and I'd hate to have to figure out how small the percentage is of people who practice enough to develop muscle memory.

 

[CHRIS_D]

Ahah! You gave it away with the hint. You are trying to keep from closing the throttle completely so you don't get the SURGE when the throttle is opened. I use the same technique maneuvering in the parking lot. Keep a bit of brake on and don't close the throttle.Ed :yahoo:

DING DING DING... We have a winner!!!

Two big complaints from FJR newbies...

1. Great bike but I can't stand that surge of throttle as I exit the apex of a turn!

HAS (Haulin Ashe Solution)

Don't let the throttle go completely closed. Keep the RPMs up by slightly applying throttle, feathering the clutch and simultaneously applying rear brake pressure to regulate speed. As soon as you regain enough vertical attitude, dump the clutch, ease off the rear brake while applying increased throttle. Makes a very smooooooth transition to full acceleration.

2. What's that slappin' noise /clunk I keep hearing coming through turns? Is something loose?

HAS

Remember chain slap??? Old racer technique - keep the drive train loaded by applying some throttle and rear brake simultaneously through turns. Keeps the "slack" or "slop" out of the chain and prevents the lash or slap when transitioning from brake to acceleration. Same thing works for shaft drive bikes where the slap action can be much more pronounced and can greatly contribute to breaking the rear tire loose.

I'm not meaning to take credit for these ideas. They are OLD SCHOOL, just like me. I just type well from my soap box.

Haulinashe,

I want to say I been trying out this technique since you posted this. Yes I heard about this technique many times before but never really understood how long you should keep the rear brake applied while entering a corner plus even the purpose behind doing it. After it was explain in great detail above a light finally went on in my BIG melon head. Anyway I CAN'T BELIEVE I HAVEN'T USED THIS TECHNIQUE UNTIL NOW!!!! :yahoo: All I can say what a difference this makes!! It giving me whole new way to corner and I'm really liking it!!!! :clapping: :clapping:

 

[mcatrophy]

Chris_d -
As for the ABS usage argument, I agree retardation can be greater before ABS cuts in, and when I practice hard braking, I try to judge when it will cut in. I'm not sure about stopping "a hell of lot quicker" without ABS. I would refer you to a test on ABS, done some time ago, but I think still relevant, click here. I found it very interesting reading.

If you take two bikes with equal braking, weight etc. One with ABS the other without. If you take the stopping distance of both bikes by appling the brakes correctly on the non-abs (continue to squeeze the front progressively but firmly allowing for the weight shift etc) and then stop the ABS model by just instantly grabbing and stomping (which now you're depending on ABS to stop you), the non ABS model WILL out brake the ABS model every time. DISCLAIMER: This is on DRY pavement only. WET is a different story.

If you take both bikes and progressively brake ("correctly") then there is no difference in their braking ability. If, on the other hand, you take both bikes and "grab and stomp", which one is most likely to stop in a controlled manner?

Also, if whilst braking you get a change in road surface, which one is easier to maintain control of and still get the maximum retardation?

You obviously haven't read the article I linked to above. It shows the effects of the psychology of the rider knowing his ABS will take care of the slippery bits enables him to achieve better overfall stopping distance under non-ideal road conditions.

The other point about cornering, firstly I don't find my ABS jerky. The first time I got it to operate I wasn't even sure it had. It was remarkably smooth, certainly compared with my car, simply modulating the braking rather than cutting it in and out. And, as for my question on cornering with ABS operating, some years ago when ABS was not common on family cars, Ford had a TV advert showing a car braking hard and also steering round a tractor emerging from a field. The point was that steering control was maintained during very hard braking, on a muddy country road. What I wanted to know was if this was true with a motorbike.

OK I pulled out the owner's manual and the service manual. As far as I can tell I'm wrong about the ABS not activating in while leaned over. THE ABS WILL STILL WORK!!!. :dribble: :blink:

Surely if you are cornering using less than 100% of the tyre's adhesion then there is some left for braking (as the whole of this thread implies). The question is, as braking increases to the point of slipping, does the ABS make the tyre just run wider (as it does with a car), or will it actually make it lose all grip? Has anyone had any experience of braking while cornering to the point of ABS operation, or conversely trying to steer while fully braking (I suspect a very hard thing to do)?

When all else fails read the directions I read the discription of Yamaha's ABS in the service manual (pg 1-8) here's Yamaha's note:

The higher the side force on a tire, the less traction there is available for braking. This is true whether the vehicle is equipped with ABS or not. Therefore, sudden braking while cornering is not recommended. Excessive side force, which ABS cannot prevent, could cause the tire to slip sideways.

Bottom line: You would be crazy to try this in a corner.

CHRIS_D -

Yes, but what about progressive braking? I agree sudden braking is likely to make you lose traction, but progressive? In a car, it will run wide, but still maintain steering and braking. With a bike I would imagine running wide would be nasty (you would be leaning too far for your straightening line), but how nasty? that's the bit I'd like to know.

As for "crazy", we're all crazy wanting to ride an unstable, invisible, cold/wet/hot un-armoured missile anyway, it's all a matter of degree. I suspect someone will be forced into trying hard corner ABS braking by circumstance, you know, "Either I had to brake or I had to lay it down".

The other point about cornering, firstly I don't find my ABS jerky. The first time I got it to operate I wasn't even sure it had. It was remarkably smooth, certainly compared with my car, simply modulating the braking rather than cutting it in and out.

I'm wondering if only your rear ABS was activating? I've tried the ABS on my 07 on a wet road using only front or rear brakes individually. The rears are remarkably smooth with ABS engaged while stomping on the rear brake. The front is a whole 'nuther animal. Stabbing the front brake on a wet road leads to front end dive and then pulsing of the brakes and the whole front end as the ABS does it's thing. No way would I want that happening while leaned over in a turn.

Harald -

Definitely both. When I first had the bike (well, after a few hundred miles,) I tried each out in turn, the classic case of doing about 40mph on a straight road, check my 6, then apply just one brake to see what happened as I increased pressure. Neither brake gave bad shakes. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe it's because I didn't grab hard initially. And, yes, I've tried them on a greasy surface (and was amazed at how much retardation they gave). I'll try "stabbing" the front when I get a suitable opportunity.

 

[CHRIS_D]

mcatrophy,

No offense, but to be honest this is getting a bit old debating over what I'm not sure. :angry2:

I thought I was pretty clear with last post, but here's few more things.. You keep comparing ABS on a bike to a car, what does a car's ABS have to do with a bike? You must compare apples with apples!!

I'm a experience rider and a MSF Instructor and do know a little bit about this crap, so please take it from me, you should never never never never have to brake in a corner while lean over to the point that the ABS activates. If this does happen, I'm sorry but you're GOING DOWN!!! :huh: If there is ever a need to brake this hard in a corner you should straighten the bike first then brake.

Last and final comment: IMO ABS is only a tool in case you lock up your tires on the bike, if the ABS activates you are NOT BRAKING properly because it's sensing one of the wheels are about to lock up. To get most out of braking, ABS or non ABS, you must allow for the back to front weight shift while progressively squeezing the front brake until you completely stop. When I practice my quick stops (usually doing about 60 mph) I sometimes activate the ABS just at that point before I come to a complete stop. The key IMO is to practice braking and get it to the shortest distance you possible can without activating the ABS. And if you do happen to activate the ABS in straight line brakin, so what that's what it's there for.

This will be my last post to you on this subject, so ride safe!!

 

[mcatrophy]

mcatrophy,
No offense, but to be honest this is getting a bit old debating over what I'm not sure. :angry2:

I thought I was pretty clear with last post, but here's few more things.. You keep comparing ABS on a bike to a car, what does a car's ABS have to do with a bike? You must compare apples with apples!!

I'm a experience rider and a MSF Instructor and do know a little bit about this crap, so please take it from me, you should never never never never have to brake in a corner while lean over to the point that the ABS activates. If this does happen, I'm sorry but you're GOING DOWN!!! :huh: If there is ever a need to brake this hard in a corner you should straighten the bike first then brake.

Last and final comment: IMO ABS is only a tool in case you lock up your tires on the bike, if the ABS activates you are NOT BRAKING properly because it's sensing one of the wheels are about to lock up. To get most out of braking, ABS or non ABS, you must allow for the back to front weight shift while progressively squeezing the front brake until you completely stop. When I practice my quick stops (usually doing about 60 mph) I sometimes activate the ABS just at that point before I come to a complete stop. The key IMO is to practice braking and get it to the shortest distance you possible can without activating the ABS. And if you do happen to activate the ABS in straight line brakin, so what that's what it's there for.

This will be my last post to you on this subject, so ride safe!!

OK, thanks for your insight, it is appreciated. All I want to do is to learn to be safer, and if at all possible, to help others (as you obviously do). Until the next debate :waaa: ...

 

[Grumpy]

I used to use the rear brake (or mis-used it as someone pointed out) until I attended California Superbike School. They would bust your *** there if they saw you using the rear brake. I adopted their technique and been happy since. In a controlled environment using the rear brake will usually result in a shorter stopping distance, but it adds one more task to my overloaded brain.

That's exactly the type of instruction that I am so opposed to. Why teach someone how to ignore up to 30% of their braking power and a boatload of other very useful braking options?

Somewhere, somehow, somebody along the way decided that the risks outweigh the potential benefits. I simply DO NOT AGREE with that thinking.

I say teach riders to use every option they have available in a controlled and rehearsed manner.

"Practice makes perfect and can save your life!" That's my motto.

I have 40,000 miles on my '03 and already have had to replace the rear pads. I don't ride a fukin' Harley, so I use both brakes. In fact, old dirt habits are hard to break, but the rear is the first thing I grab, followed by the front. I also use the rear going into the turns to set the bike up.......and use the rears to control the throttle. So maybe riding lots of twisties all the time effects the way I ride, but using the rear brake becomes a needed and useful tool. Try it, you might like it?

jim