Attention Yamaha Folks

[Medium Al]

Others chime in if they can duplicate please. I've done a number of runs over the same roads and can now reliably duplicate this problem, and depending on how I ride can reliably eliminate it or at least reduce severity considerably. This may explain why the Yamaha testers are having problems reproducing the surging on customer bikes.

First find a road that rises at least 1500 ft in elevation, with a lot of tight corners & short or no straightaways, requiring backing off throttle completely. Key is to ride the bike with very little throttle input, possibly barely cracking it open as you climb. RPMs between 2500 and say 4000. In other words, as if you own it, and are breaking your new baby in gently, enjoying the scenery, and you read the manual regarding rpm limits and so forth (and maybe are an old fart). [basically maintaining low manifold pressures for extended periods of time while climbing in altitude, and little-to-no throttle opening] Just cruisin'.

I have found I can pretty much make sure the problem doesn't happen or happens much less severity if while going through the above situation, I apply WOT between corners, blasting up to 8K rpms or so, braking hard, accelerating through corners, etc. Riding the bike like I don't own it, or like it's a sport bike, and I'm in a big hurry, or aren't an old fart in other words. [basically intermittentily providing periods of ambient pressure in the intake manifold while climbing]. Riding very aggressively in other words.

In both cases, stopping and shutting off the engine eliminates any hint of problems until climbing another 1500 ft.

I would be willing to bet that the owners who have reported this problem are also relatively new owners, who are riding their brand new $$$ bikes gently, through roads requiring or allowing little to no throttle. And I would bet factory Yamaha testers don't ride that way.

So to summarize, altitude + low/no throttle = surging problem. Altitude + agressive throttle = much less or no surging problem. If anyone else can reproduce this, please chime in. Note: I have a PCIII on my bike now, it masks the problem but does not eliminate it totally.

 

[greg97224]

That is exactly what I have noticed on my 07. I also have a PCIII installed.

 

[peter_sd]

Well the good thing is the Mtn that my dealer is going to take my bike up to test is a nice tight turn kind of road. There is not alot of straightaways. They will be taking the bike up there on wensday and if it happens to them Yamaha is coming down to look at it.

 

[Silent]

I would say that conforms to the surging I've had in the past, and since I've gotten use to the FJR, and I've gotten more agressive. Now I don't have an issue with surging.

 

[bmwhd]

First find a road that rises at least 1500 ft in elevation, with a lot of tight corners & short or no straightaways, requiring backing off throttle completely. Key is to ride the bike with very little throttle input, possibly barely cracking it open as you climb.

Sure. Rub it in. I have to travel 4 hours minimum in any direction to find such a road. Blah.

 

[peter_sd]

First find a road that rises at least 1500 ft in elevation, with a lot of tight corners & short or no straightaways, requiring backing off throttle completely. Key is to ride the bike with very little throttle input, possibly barely cracking it open as you climb.

Sure. Rub it in. I have to travel 4 hours minimum in any direction to find such a road. Blah.

I have one about 1/2 hour ride from my house so it is a good place for my dealer to test my bike. The dealer is only about 45 min from the Mtn

 

[Mick]

First find a road that rises at least 1500 ft in elevation, with a lot of tight corners & short or no straightaways, requiring backing off throttle completely. Key is to ride the bike with very little throttle input, possibly barely cracking it open as you climb. RPMs between 2500 and say 4000. In other words, as if you own it, and are breaking your new baby in gently, enjoying the scenery, and you read the manual regarding rpm limits and so forth (and maybe are an old fart). [basically maintaining low manifold pressures for extended periods of time while climbing in altitude, and little-to-no throttle opening] Just cruisin'.

Al,

I 'think' what you have found (assuming you can reproduce the failure reliably) is the 'bug' in their ECU program. Maintaining High manifold Vacuum (or low pressure as you described it ) 'could' overwhelm the programming that is watching the MAP and trying to convert it to Barometric pressure. If you don't give it a 'hint' now and then (WOT) of the actual Barometric pressure it may just fall 'off the map' and fail to meter fuel correctly. We are NOT talking about the small adjustment that would be necessary for altitide compensation but the entire FI event. THAT is what is happening when it really fails.

Good work.

Mick

 

[DPS]

I would be willing to bet that the owners who have reported this problem are also relatively new owners, who are riding their brand new $$$ bikes gently, through roads requiring or allowing little to no throttle. And I would bet factory Yamaha testers don't ride that way.
So to summarize, altitude + low/no throttle = surging problem. Altitude + agressive throttle = much less or no surging problem. If anyone else can reproduce this, please chime in. Note: I have a PCIII on my bike now, it masks the problem but does not eliminate it totally.

What you describe certainly covers my situation, which surfaced on the f'ing interstate highway, I-90. Leaving Seattle on I-90 takes you straight up and over the Cascade Mountains. You rise about 3,500' in ~ 35miles @ 70mph speed limit. I still haven't heard the outcome of last Friday's test drive of my bike to the top and back along this route.

I also fit your profile: 54 year old "geezer", new owner, braking in a new bike. Where I depart slightly is in lacking the desire to drive a touring bike on the freeway like some squid - I have a ZX-12 for that.

 

[ELP_JC]

Just want to comment on my own experiences:

My FJR has a tendency to surge under those conditions even on flat roads. And the other 2 FJRs I test rode felt the same. This is easily duplicated by holding rpms steady on 2nd gear between 2.5K to 3.5K rpms on a flat road; try it if you don't believe it. And yes, other bikes have the same tendency as well, but it doesn't get worse with altitude, like the FJR.

Altitude changes makes that surging much worse. I just wanted to point out the surging is already there, but it gets from very mild to much worse with altitude.

In my personal experience, when I started climbing the mountain, I never closed the throttle, and the bike started bucking like a bronco shortly thereafter. There was light traffic, so I was going relatively slow, but I doubt riding faster would have avoided it. And the surging didn't get worse the higher I climbed, which was good, but was already bad enough. I didn't try WOT because didn't know about it, and am on break-in. But I aggressively got on the throttle, and after seconds of hesitation with no change in speed, motor finally caught on, but didn't clear surging. Passing a truck got very interesting, and I had to troll along like if I was riding a 250cc scooter after that for fear of becoming a hood ornament.

Hey Al, 2 questions buddy:

-If I had closed the throttle, was the surging supposed to get better or worse??

-If you go WOT, does it clear the ECU like if you had shut the motor off? And how long do you have to do that? I don't like it, but it's better than pulling over and restarting.

A dealer friend of mine (Deming, NM) stopped all his FJR orders 2 months ago because of this problem, and Yamaha's inability to fix it, and he sold quite a few, so I have zero doubt Yamaha knows about this problem first hand. I wish they'd acknowledge their commitment to fix it, and many of us would feel much better. And would be much more willing to wait knowing a fix is in the way. As of now, there're many reports saying they can't duplicate the problem, and are not doing squat. IMO, they could duplicate this in their labs if they wanted to. They're dragging their feet until they feel they have to fix it. Our strength is in the numbers, so keep b*tching until we succeed. Take care.

JC

 

[snikr]

Al,

Good work finding out what the problem is. Now I hope Mother Yamaha steps up and fixes the problem. I hate to say this, but it looks like I'll keep my 04 a while longer now. Or maybe go Kawasaki when it's time to trade. :angry2:

Tom

 

[Medium Al]

Just want to comment on my own experiences:
My FJR has a tendency to surge under those conditions even on flat roads. And the other 2 FJRs I test rode felt the same. This is easily duplicated by holding rpms steady on 2nd gear between 2.5K to 3.5K rpms on a flat road; try it if you don't believe it. And yes, other bikes have the same tendency as well, but it doesn't get worse with altitude, like the FJR.

Altitude changes makes that surging much worse. I just wanted to point out the surging is already there, but it gets from very mild to much worse with altitude.

In my personal experience, when I started climbing the mountain, I never closed the throttle, and the bike started bucking like a bronco shortly thereafter. There was light traffic, so I was going relatively slow, but I doubt riding faster would have avoided it. And the surging didn't get worse the higher I climbed, which was good, but was already bad enough. I didn't try WOT because didn't know about it, and am on break-in. But I aggressively got on the throttle, and after seconds of hesitation with no change in speed, motor finally caught on, but didn't clear surging. Passing a truck got very interesting, and I had to troll along like if I was riding a 250cc scooter after that for fear of becoming a hood ornament.

Hey Al, 2 questions buddy:

-If I had closed the throttle, was the surging supposed to get better or worse??

-If you go WOT, does it clear the ECU like if you had shut the motor off? And how long do you have to do that? I don't like it, but it's better than pulling over and restarting.

A dealer friend of mine (Deming, NM) stopped all his FJR orders 2 months ago because of this problem, and Yamaha's inability to fix it, and he sold quite a few, so I have zero doubt Yamaha knows about this problem first hand. I wish they'd acknowledge their commitment to fix it, and many of us would feel much better. And would be much more willing to wait knowing a fix is in the way. As of now, there're many reports saying they can't duplicate the problem, and are not doing squat. IMO, they could duplicate this in their labs if they wanted to. They're dragging their feet until they feel they have to fix it. Our strength is in the numbers, so keep b*tching until we succeed. Take care.

JC

I am only offering a hypothesis for the factory testers who are allegedly riding bikes trying to duplicate the problem. I have found the problem may also be related to a riding style that some young(er) guy who doesn't own the bike and rides bikes for a living might not be trying.

1) When you close the throttle after periods of prolonged low-throttle operation, and try to get on the gas again, that is when the engine dies. When you open the throttle up even more, that is when it surges (after a second or three). Closing the throttle is not what causes this. I can close the throttle all I want and open it no problems at constant altitude. It is only after rising in elevation approx 1500 ft while going easy on the throttle that it shows up. Now even if you don't close the throttle, it will exhibit similar symptoms if you try to get on it after prolonged periods of low throttle operation and raising altitude. It is not as bad, but it still happens. A hiccup before power comes on then surges.

2) I do not know what the ECU does at WOT, I have no access to the code. As Mick said and we have been theorizing in the other thread, short WOT (meaning higher manilfold pressures closer to ambient) seems to give whatever algorithm they are using a bit better estimate of ambient and therefore perhaps a better estimate of true manifold pressure. By the way if they are using an algorithm like a moving average or even an auto-regressive moving average to estimate manifold pressure as a substitue for the old baro sensor, all this makes perfect sense and in fact I'd go so far as to say I expect it. [i used to design digital controllers for certain military research purposes in another life.]

 

[ELP_JC]

Thanks Al.

Hey, we all know putting that damn baro sensor back would fix all the surging in a hearbeat, but do you think they'll do it?

I can almost bet my house if Yamaha does anything, it'll be a bandaid in the form of a reflash, like on the FZ1, which didn't quite fix the problem for what I've heard. Adding the sensor back would be much more expensive, depending if they left its physical location (no extra brackets, or new parts with the bracket), if the ECU still has the inputs, and worse of all, the wiring. No way in hell they'd fix it correctly IMO.

Any other predictions? By the way, I'd settle with a half a$$ job, as long as the surging is tolerable. Later gang.

JC

 

[Medium Al]

First find a road that rises at least 1500 ft in elevation, with a lot of tight corners & short or no straightaways, requiring backing off throttle completely. Key is to ride the bike with very little throttle input, possibly barely cracking it open as you climb. RPMs between 2500 and say 4000. In other words, as if you own it, and are breaking your new baby in gently, enjoying the scenery, and you read the manual regarding rpm limits and so forth (and maybe are an old fart). [basically maintaining low manifold pressures for extended periods of time while climbing in altitude, and little-to-no throttle opening] Just cruisin'.

Al,

I 'think' what you have found (assuming you can reproduce the failure reliably) is the 'bug' in their ECU program. Maintaining High manifold Vacuum (or low pressure as you described it ) 'could' overwhelm the programming that is watching the MAP and trying to convert it to Barometric pressure. If you don't give it a 'hint' now and then (WOT) of the actual Barometric pressure it may just fall 'off the map' and fail to meter fuel correctly. We are NOT talking about the small adjustment that would be necessary for altitide compensation but the entire FI event. THAT is what is happening when it really fails.

Good work.

Mick

Thanks Mick. I can reproduce the original failure reliably, and the mitigation of it with WOT reliably. Nearly exact same spot in the fixed loop I've been riding for that purpose. I should point out that bursts of WOT do not eliminate the problem. Just postpones its severity a while longer. So it is not the same as shutting down the bike and turning it on again, which seems to clear the ECU completely and start over. [This is a moving average type of behavior, indicating some memory of previous states is momentarily getting written over with newer data, but not completley.] Time will tell. If it turns out a lot of other folks are seeing this and can repeat it too, then maybe we're onto something.

By the way Yamaha's 07 R1 won the Bike Most in Need of a Fuel Injection Disinfection in the latest Cycleworld [up Front column]. Given the similar FI problems with the R1, the FZ1, and now the FJR, I bet the FI controller guys are real busy. I think they cut the fingers off of programmers who makes these kinds of mistakes, like a Yakuza thing. Problem is when they screw up too often, they can't program anymore (no more fingers).

 

[TruWrecks]

At this point my bike has altitude sickness almost anytime I ride for a leisure cruise in the hills. I love the bike when it runs correctly, but I HATE THE F'KING POS when it acts up. I will be selling the bike back under the Washington Lemon Law if Yamaha doesn't do something soon. We only get a few months of great riding a year, and if I have to spend the entire good season riding a 630lb R-1 wanna-bee that I can't simply enjoy in the mountains I'll be bailing on Yamaha for good.

 

[AZrider]

Al,

The next time I ride up from Tucson I'll give it a try. The time the bike stumbled last Thursday I had just finished a pretty fast climb up Hwy 83 and was cooling down for about 5 miles coming into Sonoita, loafing and yes I'm an old fart.

Hopefully Yamaha will come up with a "patch" to fix the problem. I hope it's not a hardware problem.

AZ

 

[dgerharter]

First find a road that rises at least 1500 ft in elevation, with a lot of tight corners & short or no straightaways, requiring backing off throttle completely. Key is to ride the bike with very little throttle input, possibly barely cracking it open as you climb. RPMs between 2500 and say 4000. In other words, as if you own it, and are breaking your new baby in gently, enjoying the scenery, and you read the manual regarding rpm limits and so forth (and maybe are an old fart). [basically maintaining low manifold pressures for extended periods of time while climbing in altitude, and little-to-no throttle opening] Just cruisin'.

That explains why I got the surges real bad when I was at the back of a group, and less when I was leading. It was less still when riding solo without a passenger.

I'm trying to remember, but my impression is that I simply rode "smoother" when leading my group - but with my wife on the back I doubt I was riding too high up in the power band. I usually just cruise with her on the back.

It's a shame about the bike - but after dropping it in a gravel parking lot when it nearly stalled, then caught - I really don't need that to happen with my wife on the back - I am looking to find another ride. What a pity - I really liked the looks and performance of the FJR - but hey, more than half of my annual mileage is mountain touring in CA and AZ, and this bike just won't cut it.

As for waiting for Yamaha to fix it - why should I? They didn't wait to cash my check - and if it had bounced, you can bet your a$$ that they'd be sending out the repo man in a hurry. The way I look at it, I paid for a Super Sport Tourer that isn't delivering what they promised. That's OK, no hard feelings, right? Nothing personal. Just take it back and give me my money, and I'll go away knowing that Yamaha is a company with integrity. Deny there's a problem, keep telling everyone "We can't duplicate the problem, you'll just have to wait, there's no defect", etc. is just an affront to my intelligence. Of course they know there's a problem. Of course they can duplicate it. If I can, they can. Don't take me for a fool. Just own up to the problem when I ask, and let's move on.

There, I am now officially off my soapbox. I will post no more - I wish all of you the best with whatever you decide to do with your bikes.

David

 

[AZrider]

As for waiting for Yamaha to fix it - why should I? They didn't wait to cash my check - and if it had bounced, you can bet your a$$ that they'd be sending out the repo man in a hurry. The way I look at it, I paid for a Super Sport Tourer that isn't delivering what they promised. That's OK, no hard feelings, right? Nothing personal. Just take it back and give me my money, and I'll go away knowing that Yamaha is a company with integrity. Deny there's a problem, keep telling everyone "We can't duplicate the problem, you'll just have to wait, there's no defect", etc. is just an affront to my intelligence. Of course they know there's a problem. Of course they can duplicate it. If I can, they can. Don't take me for a fool. Just own up to the problem when I ask, and let's move on.

There, I am now officially off my soapbox. I will post no more - I wish all of you the best with whatever you decide to do with your bikes.

David

Dave,

I think you called me on my cell phone from the dealer when I was in Houston, right? After I told you I had a PCIII you sort of terminated the call. I was puzzled as to why you called then dumped the connection before I could tell you how well the bike ran with the Power Commander. Yes, I know the PCIII doesn't solve the problem but it masks it well enough that the bike is wonderful to ride. I'm running the combo map that I downloaded from this site and it's made a big difference. I was about to explain this but you didn't seem interested.

I know it sh_t to dump the bike in the gravel but IMO it's also pretty drastic to sell a bike without giving Yamaha a chance to fix it. Good luck and hope things work out for you.

AZ

 

[Medium Al]

I would like to reiterate to all with this problem that the PCIII really does help make it manageable. It won't eliminate it, but it will turn a bike I did not want to ride into one I do. I am just using the stock map that came with the PCIII. And frankly, I doubt I'd have ridden the bike again had I not put it on. I live in the mountains as well and it was just too dangerous.

I have gotten over being pissed off about this, it solves nothing. And because of where I live, I can not in good conscience sell the bike to someone else. I know how big corporations work, they take time. We have been told Yamaha is working on this, let's see what they come up with. In the mean time, maybe buy a PCIII.

 

[Fred H.]

By the way Yamaha's 07 R1 won the Bike Most in Need of a Fuel Injection Disinfection in the latest Cycleworld [up Front column]. Given the similar FI problems with the R1, the FZ1, and now the FJR, I bet the FI controller guys are real busy. I think they cut the fingers off of programmers who makes these kinds of mistakes, like a Yakuza thing. Problem is when they screw up too often, they can't program anymore (no more fingers).

I don't think it is the programmers who should get the blame, but rather the bean counters, who told the engineers that they could save $3.50 on every bike if they eliminated the BARO sensor, and instead use the MAP sensor at power on to get the baro reading.