Attention Yamaha Folks

[Medium Al]

By the way Yamaha's 07 R1 won the Bike Most in Need of a Fuel Injection Disinfection in the latest Cycleworld [up Front column]. Given the similar FI problems with the R1, the FZ1, and now the FJR, I bet the FI controller guys are real busy. I think they cut the fingers off of programmers who makes these kinds of mistakes, like a Yakuza thing. Problem is when they screw up too often, they can't program anymore (no more fingers).

I don't think it is the programmers who should get the blame, but rather the bean counters, who told the engineers that they could save $3.50 on every bike if they eliminated the BARO sensor, and instead use the MAP sensor at power on to get the baro reading.

My guess regarding the baro sensor was it got deleted in favor of using its input slot for something related to the semi-auto gearbox on the AE's. The cost trade off was for a new controller with more inputs vs. deleting baro sensor and reprogramming. (Lots of MAP based systems do not have baro sensors.) But then the A models got the same ECU & basic FI maps. Add to that new emissions related software and you have a mess. Any one of these things or combination of them could be the culprit. I personally think it's that the new metallic maroon paint interacting with internet hysteria that is causing the problem.

 

[Last Chance]

Others chime in if they can duplicate please. I've done a number of runs over the same roads and can now reliably duplicate this problem, and depending on how I ride can reliably eliminate it or at least reduce severity considerably. This may explain why the Yamaha testers are having problems reproducing the surging on customer bikes.
First find a road that rises at least 1500 ft in elevation, with a lot of tight corners & short or no straightaways, requiring backing off throttle completely. Key is to ride the bike with very little throttle input, possibly barely cracking it open as you climb. RPMs between 2500 and say 4000. In other words, as if you own it, and are breaking your new baby in gently, enjoying the scenery, and you read the manual regarding rpm limits and so forth (and maybe are an old fart). [basically maintaining low manifold pressures for extended periods of time while climbing in altitude, and little-to-no throttle opening] Just cruisin'.

I have found I can pretty much make sure the problem doesn't happen or happens much less severity if while going through the above situation, I apply WOT between corners, blasting up to 8K rpms or so, braking hard, accelerating through corners, etc. Riding the bike like I don't own it, or like it's a sport bike, and I'm in a big hurry, or aren't an old fart in other words. [basically intermittentily providing periods of ambient pressure in the intake manifold while climbing]. Riding very aggressively in other words.

In both cases, stopping and shutting off the engine eliminates any hint of problems until climbing another 1500 ft.

I would be willing to bet that the owners who have reported this problem are also relatively new owners, who are riding their brand new $$$ bikes gently, through roads requiring or allowing little to no throttle. And I would bet factory Yamaha testers don't ride that way.

So to summarize, altitude + low/no throttle = surging problem. Altitude + agressive throttle = much less or no surging problem. If anyone else can reproduce this, please chime in. Note: I have a PCIII on my bike now, it masks the problem but does not eliminate it totally.

This would explain why I, instinctively, have "reduced" the problem to a minimum. I've added a PCIII and raised the idle to max. My TPS indicates a "17" at idle according to what's indicated in the diagnostic mode. As soon as I can get my hands on a laptop, I'm going to put in the "modified" Wally Smoothness" map and adjust the Idle per the PCIII software. I'm in need of at least a TBS and have a "mercury stick" available. Mine is an '06 and I've had a problem off idle since new, along with the dreaded "cough of death" resulting in at least 5 tip-overs, resulting in road rash to the bikes plastic. The "final" adjustment to idle eliminated the off idle problems and "cough of death". (It should as the engine no longer idles, it is raring to go all the time!

Commuting at a steady pace using MCCruise control I still can detect "surging". Very noticeable at times. Other times hardly noticeable. I'm anxious to get up on the interstate and get in the cruising mode to see if it exhibits the true "altitude problems". My guess is it will, but I'm hoping all the "band aids" I've applied will virtually eliminate it. It's strange I haven't had those problems on our "group" rides in the foothills and the Sierra mountains. But then the group I ride with ride like they stole them and it's hard for me to keep up, but I try.

Best of luck to all of us. I still love this bike and since I'm only getting 38 miles per gallon its obvious I go WOT often! (Safety is my motto!) :yahoo:

LC

 

[Medium Al]

As soon as I can get my hands on a laptop, I'm going to put in the "modified" Wally Smoothness" map and adjust the Idle per the PCIII software. I'm in need of at least a TBS and have a "mercury stick" available. Mine is an '06 and I've had a problem off idle since new, along with the dreaded "cough of death" resulting in at least 5 tip-overs, resulting in road rash to the bikes plastic. The "final" adjustment to idle eliminated the off idle problems and "cough of death". (It should as the engine no longer idles, it is raring to go all the time!LC

Would be very interested in a comparison between the smoothness map and the 01 PCIII map (the one loaded into it when you buy it) once you get a chance to load it. Especially WRT the surging.

I hope you have reported your various problems to NHTSA, if not go to

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

 

[ELP_JC]

Well, I'm relieved to hear Al say the PCIII makes this problem bearable, and frankly, that's all I'm looking for right now. If a perfect synch doesn't change things to that point, along with setting the CO levels to +18 equally (any more info on this?), might to that route.

As far as the R1 having the same problem, I haven't heard that at all, but if it's true, that's Yamaha's most important bike (yes folks), so that finally might get them off their butts, and stop the denial. Just like many folks, what pisses me off is them not acknowledging the freaking problem. If they just had come out and say they're working on it, and a fix is on its way, it'd be a different story.

And thanks for the clarification about a restart being better than WOT to clear the ECU. Later gang.

JC

 

[Tropical FJR]

Hello all,

I have read this thread with much interest.

I have an 06 Australian model, and I merrily ride up and down mountains without a problem. I understand that the Aussie 07 models are similarly well behaved.

Gents - my take on this issue is that you are all being screwed. Badly.

Why the hell should you have to spend money on an aftermarket box to sort out the problem? A problem that is clearly of Yamaha's making!

The Australian 06/7 FJR's do not exhibit any of the US bike symptoms - my bike's FI is good - it certainly does not exhibit any of the surging issues that appear to plague your machines.

So, Yamaha is clearly able to get the FI right with the right map.

As I said in another thread, if Yamaha refuse to help, then someone needs to get their hands on the Aussie ECU map and load it into a US bike.

Rgds

Glenn

 

[Medium Al]

Hello all,
I have read this thread with much interest.

I have an 06 Australian model, and I merrily ride up and down mountains without a problem. I understand that the Aussie 07 models are similarly well behaved.

Gents - my take on this issue is that you are all being screwed. Badly.

Why the hell should you have to spend money on an aftermarket box to sort out the problem? A problem that is clearly of Yamaha's making!

The Australian 06/7 FJR's do not exhibit any of the US bike symptoms - my bike's FI is good - it certainly does not exhibit any of the surging issues that appear to plague your machines.

So, Yamaha is clearly able to get the FI right with the right map.

As I said in another thread, if Yamaha refuse to help, then someone needs to get their hands on the Aussie ECU map and load it into a US bike.

Rgds

Glenn

Do you know for a fact that Aussie ECU's have different maps than US? I thought Yamaha made the decision to come out with one and only one FI system that meets all emissions worldwide (For O7 I believe that means one system meets all of CA-USA, 49-state USA, and Euro). I may be wrong however, and if I am I'd love to try an Aussie ECU (not sure how you'd switch maps, other than a reflash from a dealer).

 

[ELP_JC]

I thought Yamaha made the decision to come out with one and only one FI system that meets all emissions worldwide (For O7 I believe that means one system meets all of CA-USA, 49-state USA, and Euro).

Not true, but close: '07 bikes CAN MEET the strictest emissions requirements, which is Euro3, but not all bikes are the same. And you don't have to go far for proof: There's a CA version of the '07. It requires a charcoal canister (and who knows if something else), which the 49-state bikes don't have. Mine certainly doesn't. Also, some European bikes have the diagnostic screen enabled from the factory. If bikes in some markets have zero surging problems, it's almost obvious there's something difrerent, and FI programming seems the logical difference. The most frustrating thing is Yamaha knows of all these differences perfectly, and still no freaking answer from them; just denials. Hope that changes soon. Later.

JC

 

[Medium Al]

I thought Yamaha made the decision to come out with one and only one FI system that meets all emissions worldwide (For O7 I believe that means one system meets all of CA-USA, 49-state USA, and Euro).

Not true, but close: '07 bikes CAN MEET the strictest emissions requirements, which is Euro3, but not all bikes are the same. And you don't have to go far for proof: There's a CA version of the '07. It requires a charcoal canister (and who knows if something else), which the 49-state bikes don't have. Mine certainly doesn't. Also, some European bikes have the diagnostic screen enabled from the factory. If bikes in some markets have zero surging problems, it's almost obvious there's something difrerent, and FI programming seems the logical difference. The most frustrating thing is Yamaha knows of all these differences perfectly, and still no freaking answer from them; just denials. Hope that changes soon. Later.

JC

Good info. I would still like to know if the actual ECU maps are different anywhere in the world. E.g.; the CA charcoal canister is an add-on to vent the gas tank and likely has zero effect on the ECU map. Enabling the diagnostic mode has little to do with the ECU map as well. What I am calling the ECU map is the basic or core engine controller map for fuel injectors and ignition timing, with closed loop O2 sensor operation. It is mainly just a big hyper-table in memory, indexed by (ECU inputs) throttle, MAP signal, temp, RPM, crank position, O2 sensor etc. and ECU outputs are injector pulse width and spark for each cylinder. This is what I believe is the same worldwide but I could be wrong. I would love to be wrong. The total emissions control system of course is comprised of other things (like a cat and evap canister, PCV valves, etc.), and the ECU also does other things besides just meter fuel. All I care about is the fuel-spark map.

By the way, here is a good article I recently found on the FZ1's FI problems, sounds real familiar. Also gives some insight into what maufacturers are having to do to meet emissions and the problems that causes:

https://www.bikemagazine.co.uk/nav?page=bik...esource=5289716

 

[BBQ]

Others chime in if they can duplicate please. I've done a number of runs over the same roads and can now reliably duplicate this problem, and depending on how I ride can reliably eliminate it or at least reduce severity considerably. This may explain why the Yamaha testers are having problems reproducing the surging on customer bikes.
First find a road that rises at least 1500 ft in elevation, with a lot of tight corners & short or no straightaways, requiring backing off throttle completely. Key is to ride the bike with very little throttle input, possibly barely cracking it open as you climb. RPMs between 2500 and say 4000. In other words, as if you own it, and are breaking your new baby in gently, enjoying the scenery, and you read the manual regarding rpm limits and so forth (and maybe are an old fart). [basically maintaining low manifold pressures for extended periods of time while climbing in altitude, and little-to-no throttle opening] Just cruisin'.

I have found I can pretty much make sure the problem doesn't happen or happens much less severity if while going through the above situation, I apply WOT between corners, blasting up to 8K rpms or so, braking hard, accelerating through corners, etc. Riding the bike like I don't own it, or like it's a sport bike, and I'm in a big hurry, or aren't an old fart in other words. [basically intermittentily providing periods of ambient pressure in the intake manifold while climbing]. Riding very aggressively in other words.

In both cases, stopping and shutting off the engine eliminates any hint of problems until climbing another 1500 ft.

I would be willing to bet that the owners who have reported this problem are also relatively new owners, who are riding their brand new $$$ bikes gently, through roads requiring or allowing little to no throttle. And I would bet factory Yamaha testers don't ride that way.

So to summarize, altitude + low/no throttle = surging problem. Altitude + agressive throttle = much less or no surging problem. If anyone else can reproduce this, please chime in. Note: I have a PCIII on my bike now, it masks the problem but does not eliminate it totally.

I have followed this thread with great interest hoping I don't develop this problem. Yes, I have experienced surging twice. First when the bike was new and being broken in I rode it like the geezer I am(57). Then I didn't experience surging for the next 5000 miles - riding it like a sport bike. The second time I experienced surging I had started from sea level and was up to about 2500 feet. Because it was cold I was traveling slower than usual - like a geezer - and it began surging. When the day warmed and I could travel the way I like the surging disappeared. Maybe the FJR needs to be ridden like a sport bike.