AVCC install on '07 wiring questions

[drmjf86]

I am going to PM FJRCarShopGuy with these questions as I've been using his installation instructions but saw that it had been several years since he last posted on this forum and I was afraid he wouldn't receive my message or respond. I'm in the middle of my install and want to minimize any delays in getting answers, so I thought I'd throw them out to anyone who might understand things better than I or who might have followed his install directions and might have pondered similar questions and found answers, or, based upon experience with any of the several other available install directions on this forum, provide me with more informed opinion. My questions are:

1) Which fuse is fuse #12 which he connected his power feed to? He describes this fuse as being for the 12 volt power adaptor located in the left compartment. I've found what appears to be the fuse box he pictures but the fuses are not numbered on the diagram in the lid of the fuse box and my '06 factory service manual does not have any diagrams which assign numbers that I can find. The fuse box that he appears to be using sits right next to the negative terminal of the battery. There are 3 fuse boxes right next to each other just behind the battery. The one I'm talking about is the most inward of the 3. It contains 6 active fuses and slots for 3 spares. Going from front to back the 6 active fuses are 3 Amp Terminal, 15 Amp EFI, 10 Amp Ignition, 10 Amp ABS, 15 Amp Signal, 25 Amp Head. Someone else had suggested tying the power feed into the brake light fuse/brown wire in this vicinity to avoid the problem of the CC not disengaging with brake application if the brake light fuse is blown because the AVCC control logic compares this wire to the purple wire to know that the brakes have been applied. The brown wire going into this fuse box appears to be going to the 15 Amp Signal fuse which appears to serve the brake light as I lose the brake light when I remove this fuse. Is this the correct wire for power feed? FJRCarShopGuy also removed the AVCC provided 3 Amp fuse - I assume because he was tying into an already fused circuit. But, if the wire I've spoken of is the correct one, would there be a problem with that circuit carrying a 15 Amp rather that 3 Amp fuse?

2) FJRCarShopGuy connected the servo blue tach signal wire into the gray/red stripe ignition coil wire located in the same area, where it immediately came out of the primary ignition coil. The other wire coming out of the coil is red/blue stripe. My factory service. manual indicates that the negative side coil wire might be orange or gray/red stripe and that the positive side coil wire might be red/black stripe or red/blue stripe. FJRCarShopGuy says nothing about shortening the servo blue tach signal wire. I'm aware of the need to maintain the in-series "noise suppressor" but would like to shorten the wire if this would not create a problem to avoid having to stuff a bundle of wire somewhere. If I do shorten the blue wire, where should I locate the noise suppressor? It's out-of-the-box position is farther (78") from the servo, nearer (22") where it would attach to the ignition coil. Would the best location be as close to the ignition coil as I could make it or is some distance from the ignition coil desirable - e.g., the 22" which already exists? Or maybe, I should maintain the same ratio of distances???

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Mike

 

[Queensland Ken]

Try these posts of mine.

I did an electrical writeup on our Aussie Forum.

https://www.fjrowners.com/forums/10-fjr-farkling-ii/33362-alternate-rostra-cruise-control-location.html#post337890

https://www.fjrowners.com/forums/10-fjr-farkling-ii/33362-alternate-rostra-cruise-control-location.html#post338065

Cheers

 

[mcatrophy]

The fuse that supplies the glove-box socket is the only 3-amp one in the box. The wire from it is coloured brown/black.

Either the orange or the grey-red wires to the coils will be fine. I'd suggest keeping the resistor nearer the coil end, it's coil noise it's trying to get rid of. Other than that, shortening shouldn't be a problem (though I left mine full length).

I did a write-up of my installation here (which points to my pictorial "guide"), might be of some help.

Make sure you get the DIP-switches correct, On Off Off On Off Off Off is probably optimum (I'm assuming you're not using a road-speed input, just the coil).

 

[RaYzerman19]

You can tap into the coil wire in the ECU compartment as well.... either the orange or grey/red. I just shortened the blue enough that I left the resistor in the circuit. I took power from my fuse box under the seat.

 

[drmjf86]

My bad, I found the fuse number being referenced by FJRCarShopGuy in my owner's manual (rather than the factory service manual) - the #12 fuse is the 3 Amp to the auxiliary DC jack in the storage compartment. The brown wire that I understand is the "absolutely" correct wire to connect the AVCC power feed wire to is fused by the #8, 15 Amp. The rationale for this being the "absolutely" correct wire to connect to is that the AVCC control logic compares this wire to the purple wire to "know" that the brakes have been applied. If the AVCC control was getting it's 12 volts from any switched source, then, in the unlikely event that the brake lights don't actually work - i.e., blown fuse or something - the cruise control would not disengage with the brakes because if the brake lights weren't working the purple wire never gets volts. If the AVCC control gets 12 volts from the hot side of the brake light circuit, it won't engage if the brake lights are dead because that circuit won't have any volts to give it. This was described as a designed-in safety measure and it makes sense to me. Has anyone used this "belts and suspenders" approach - that is, used the brown brake light fuse wire to connect the AVCC power feed?

Mike

 

[mcatrophy]

My bad, I found the fuse number being referenced by FJRCarShopGuy in my owner's manual (rather than the factory service manual) - the #12 fuse is the 3 Amp to the auxiliary DC jack in the storage compartment. The brown wire that I understand is the "absolutely" correct wire to connect the AVCC power feed wire to is fused by the #8, 15 Amp. The rationale for this being the "absolutely" correct wire to connect to is that the AVCC control logic compares this wire to the purple wire to "know" that the brakes have been applied. If the AVCC control was getting it's 12 volts from any switched source, then, in the unlikely event that the brake lights don't actually work - i.e., blown fuse or something - the cruise control would not disengage with the brakes because if the brake lights weren't working the purple wire never gets volts. If the AVCC control gets 12 volts from the hot side of the brake light circuit, it won't engage if the brake lights are dead because that circuit won't have any volts to give it. This was described as a designed-in safety measure and it makes sense to me. Has anyone used this "belts and suspenders" approach - that is, used the brown brake light fuse wire to connect the AVCC power feed?Mike

Not sure where this idea came from. If the brake wire is more than a faction of a volt above zero, the Audiovox will disengage. Nothing to do with the 12V. Which is why, if you swap the incandescent brake lights for LEDs, you need to add a relay for the CC brake detection.

 

[ionbeam]

...The brown wire that I understand is the "absolutely" correct wire to connect the AVCC power feed wire...

Not sure where this idea came from...

wfooshee. Walter was going on about safety when unexpected things might break, like the brake light filament. I'd have to search it out.

 

[Queensland Ken]

Your going to power up the cruise from the bike's signalling system fuse, boom, all the electrons will leak out.

Take 5, make a coffee and do some forum searches.

If you have a totally separate accessory fused supply, triggered by the tail light circuit, meaning to say the tail light triggers a relay that powers up the cruise control.

In the event the the signalling system fuse blows, and loose the feed to the brake lights, the cruise control looses it's power as well.

 

[drmjf86]

My reference to 12V was only meant to mean a 12V power supply, not that this much voltage was needed for operation of the CC. Yes, it was wfooshee's earlier posts I was referring to re: using the brake light circuit as a power supply. I recognize that I could easily connect to any of a number of switched power supplies - including my fuse panel under the passenger seat which is triggered with a relay off the tail light - but the "safety" argument that wfooshee raised appealed to me. I've PM'd wfooshee with some questions about where to access the brown wire of the brake light circuit - at the brake light fuse vs relay? - and asked him to view this thread and comment if he would like. I'm not enough of an electrician and don't have enough understanding of the control logic of the AVSS to offer my own "defense" . I can only say for myself that "safe" sounded good. I understand that routine check of the brake light could minimize the risk of the CC not disengaging with a blown brake light fuse or broken filament and have read (again, wfooshee) that grabbing the clutch would disengage the CC even if the brake light failed. But, knowing that I am human and might periodically neglect to check the brake light or panic and not grab the clutch under circumstances where something was amiss, using a designed-in safety measure is more comforting. In re: to Queensland Ken's statement "...boom, all the electrons will leak out", I'd be interested in what that means. If it is in reference to his final statement that "In the event the signaling system fuse blows, and lose the feed to the brake lights, the cruise control loses its power as well", I believe that is the whole idea - better to not be able to engage when not able to disengage. I wonder if factory-installed CC on the '14 (or any factory-installed CC on any vehicle) might not be similarly designed. Riding with a disabled CC until I fix a failed brake light doesn't seem like that big a deal - I've ridden for years without a CC. Other than the argument for loss of CC function until a brake light failure can be resolved, it would appear that the only other argument against using the brake light circuit to power the CC - pending clarification of Queesland Ken's "boom" - is the inconvenience of accessing it. Well, I've stripped all the plastic off already and, since I plan to locate the AVCC power supply fuse (which I've decided not to remove as FJRCarShopGuy did) near the other fuses by the battery, I would need to remove no more plastic than in the event of a brake light fuse being blown - something anyone who uses another switched power supply would have to do if, on their pre-flight check, they discovered a non-working brake light. I'm not necessarily married to this idea and would appreciate any arguments against doing things this way. If it makes sense, I'd also appreciate anyone's advice re: accessing the brown wire at the brake light fuse vs brake light relay. The former is very close to where I am accessing the coil wire for tach signal which might make future trouble shooting a little more convenient. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, including that I am way overthinking all this. It would be very easy to run the power feed to my switched fuse panel as I am already running my ground wire there along with the purple wire which is going to connect through a relay to a pre-existing splice from the yellow factory tail light wire to a wire that I plug into my Givi trunk lights when I ride with the trunk. Thanks in advance. BTW, Queensland Ken, if by "Take 5...and do some forum searches" you meant "5 weeks", I can assure you I have. My wife has called me obsessed! As you know, there are multiple posts on how to install the AVCC and later modifications based upon experienced problems or discovered " better ways" of doing things. I have tried to glean and incorporate the best ideas from all of these...otherwise I would have been up and riding days ago as Spring has finally arrived to southeastern WI.

Mike

 

[mcatrophy]

If the brake lights fail, the cruise control WILL DISENGAGE. No ifs, no buts.

Explanation: The CC will disengage with a very small positive voltage on the brake light circuit. Normally the brake lights' filaments hold the wire at very close to 0V. As well as sensing this voltage, the CC bleeds a small current onto this wire to check that the bulbs haven't failed. This current will lift the voltage sufficiently to disengage the CC if the filaments fail. Or if the CC's sense wire falls off. So long as it doesn't short to 0V if it does.

There are other Gen II FJR current bleeds into this wire as well, the ABS for one, and if you are fortunate enough to have an AE/AS, the YCC-S computer does, this/these will also lift the voltage on this wire.

Safe disengaging with blown bulbs is nothing to do with which 12V source you use for the CC.

 

[wfooshee]

You guys are talking about two different sides of the brake light circuit here. The brown wire from the brake light fuse is 12V switched by the key. Bike on, brown wire is ALWAYS hot. That's where to connect the AVCC's red wire.

The wire that goes to the brake lights themselves is the one that triggers the AVCC disengage, not sure what color it is on the Gen-II, never having installed on a Gen-II. This is the one that apparently never actually quite sees an actual 0 volts and thus calls for some relay to trigger the AVCC's wire.

My comment some time back about using another 12V source to power the AVCC (not to detect the brakes) was to point out that should the brake light fuse get blown and you've powered the AVCC from there, it's failsafe. It will not power up. Should you use another 12V source, it's not failsafe. The AVGG will engage, but because there's no power on the brake light circuit, it will never detect the brakes and thus not disengage when the brakes are applied.

Burned out filaments in the brake lights will not cause the AVCC to fail. It will engage and disengage correctly.

 

[mcatrophy]

You guys are talking about two different sides of the brake light circuit here. The brown wire from the brake light fuse is 12V switched by the key. Bike on, brown wire is ALWAYS hot. That's where to connect the AVCC's red wire.
The wire that goes to the brake lights themselves is the one that triggers the AVCC disengage, not sure what color it is on the Gen-II, never having installed on a Gen-II. This is the one that apparently never actually quite sees an actual 0 volts and thus calls for some relay to trigger the AVCC's wire.

My comment some time back about using another 12V source to power the AVCC (not to detect the brakes) was to point out that should the brake light fuse get blown and you've powered the AVCC from there, it's failsafe. It will not power up. Should you use another 12V source, it's not failsafe. The AVGG will engage, but because there's no power on the brake light circuit, it will never detect the brakes and thus not disengage when the brakes are applied.

Burned out filaments in the brake lights will not cause the AVCC to fail. It will engage and disengage correctly.

You are saying that without the "signal" 12V being present, the voltage on the brake circuit can't rise sufficiently to disengage the CC. This might be true, but remember that CC (and other circuits) look on the brake line and bleed a little current onto that wire, sufficiently to raise the voltage. Working from memory, (I'm somewhere in Spain using my mobile, no sensible access to the wiring diagram) on a GenII, the brake light is switched by a relay that is energised with ignition on, and de-energised when a brake is activated. If the "signal" fuse fails, the relay will disengage, the circuit would presumably back-feed the rest of the "signal" circuit, which might hold the lamp wire at 0V - except on the AS/AE, where the brake lamp is fed through a diode.
Needs a careful look at the wiring diagram which I can't do at the moment.

But I now agree that to be ultimately safe as far as CC disengagement is concerned, that's the feed to use, always remembering that by tapping into it, you are increasing the risk of blowing that fuse.

A final thought, if the brake wire shorts to 0V, this would prevent the CC from disengaging. I think I've got to finally agree with wfooshee. But I'm not changing mine now

 

[drmjf86]

To further complicate the discussion, I'll share something that Queensland Ken indicated to me in a PM: "There are 2 brake switch inputs available on the cruise control , this gives you the ability to pick what is right for your car, sic bike. One type of input is for when there is power applied normally, current sinking, the "normal' way a bulb works. The other is current sourcing, when there is power at the brake filaments all the time and when you apply the brakes, the brake circuit then makes the circuit to negative. Some cars have this function. The FJR has similar circuits on the bike but NOT on the brake circuit - e.g., the horns have power 24/7 and when you hit the button, makes a circuit negative." He suggested that the better way to power up the cruise, for safety reasons, is via a relay triggered from the tail light circuit and just stick with the normal brake input with the violet (I assume he means the wire elsewhere referred to as purple) wire.

Therefore, I gave up on pursuing connection of the AVCC servo red power wire to the brake light switch circuit up front (where I found the brown wire in several locations - "Signal" fuse in fuse box directly adjacent to the battery negative terminal, relay directly in front of the battery at the positive terminal end, and at the horns - because I wasn't sure which of these might be appropriate given the above info Queensland Ken had provided me and because Queensland Ken had suggested that a relay triggered from the tail light circuit would be "better... for safety reasons." Also, among all the posts I reviewed (and I spent many, many days doing so) and responses received to PMs, I found only 1 possible installer who apparently went for the brown wire with no follow-up that I could find on how it worked out. I don't even believe that wfooshee, who had raised the potential safety concern with not using the brake light switch circuit for powering the AVCC, used it on his own install. I decided to go with the "tried and true" and used a pre-existing auxiliary fuse block in the tail of my bike which is triggered off the factory blue tail light wire as the connection for the servo red power wire, connected the servo black ground wire to the ground side of the fuse block and placed a 15 Amp fuse. I wasn't sure which amperage fuse to use, so just duplicated what was on the brake light switch circuit up front - does that make sense? I also ran the servo purple wire to the back of the bike and connected it, via a relay, to a pre-existing splice into the factory yellow tail light wire which was used for connecting my Givi trunk brake lights (with flasher installed). I ran the CC control panel red power wire and black ground wire to the front of the bike where the fuse boxes and battery are. I did exactly what FJRCarShopGuy did with the control panel red power wire - used a Posi-Tap to connect it to the 3 Amp fused factory brown/black wire which serves the power outlet in the left side storage compartment. I also, like FJRCarShopGuy, eliminated the 3 Amp fuse provided with the AVCC, for the same reason he did - I only used it in the past for my GPS and I took the opportunity of this AVSS install to finally install a separate hardwire source of power for the GPS as well. I connected the control panel black ground battery to the battery negative terminal. The servo blue tach signal wire is connected directly to the primary coil where the gray/red wire was connected. I created an adaptor harness like FJRCarShopGuy to attach the gray/red wire to the servo blue tach signal wire. My only concern is that I might have eliminated to much of the servo blue tach signal wire. I shortened it and reinserted the noise suppressor very close to the ignition coil.

Before I "go live" and reconnect the battery, does anyone see any problem with my wiring scheme? Taking all the plastic off the bike was a ***** and I'm sure putting it back on will be even worse. I'd like to get this right the 1st time!

 

[wfooshee]

If the brake light fuse blows, how will the AVCC see the brakes go on??? There is NO VOLTAGE to the brake light wires. Other circuits "bleeding" into them is not 12V, and would actually prevent the AVCC from engaging at all. (That was the whole GenII issue with this device in the first place!)

The AVCC's purple wire needs 0 volts for the CC to set, and it needs 12V (actually, close to any non-zero voltage) to disengage (or refuse to engage.)

That's my issue with getting 12V on the red wire from another circuit. The AVCC installation instructions even call for getting 12V from the always-hot side of the brake light circuit. That's not just a convenient place, it's proof to the controller that the brake light circuit is working in the first place.

If the brake light circuit is working then it's true, it makes no difference where you get the 12V from. But if the brake light fuse blows, there are no brake lights, and the the cruise control WILL NOT DISENGAGE when brakes are applied. Why would it???? There's no signal there!!! If you apply them hard enough it will figure out that something's amiss and disengage, but only because its throttle input is not speeding up the bike. (And it WILL give throttle input!)

And yes, I did indeed connect my red wire to the hot side of the brake light switch, and my purple wire to the switched side. I have a GenI and it's an easy and reliable connection.

 

[mcatrophy]

If the brake light fuse blows, how will the AVCC see the brakes go on??? There is NO VOLTAGE to the brake light wires. Other circuits "bleeding" into them is not 12V, and would actually prevent the AVCC from engaging at all. (That was the whole GenII issue with this device in the first place!)....

If it won't engage then it's a moot point whether it can "see" the brake signal in order to disengage. If it had engaged prior to the brake light failing, it will disengage for the same reason it wouldn't engage in the first place with a failed brake light, its detection circuit puts sufficient voltage on the wire to detect it's blown, nothing to do with where the brake lights get their power from.

However, in the limit, I agree it's safest to use the signalling 12V supply for the CC, but only because a short circuit on the brake light wire would otherwise allow engagement and it would not "see" the brakes being applied. That short circuit would blow the signalling system fuse the next time the brakes are applied, so stopping the CC.

Not a scenario that I am going to worry about sufficiently to change where mine is powered from

 

[wfooshee]

I'm not trying to be a butt here, but I really don't know where you get the idea that it has a "detection circuit" nor how such a circuit wold work. The purple wire is an INPUT into the CC's logic. No volts, OK to engage. Volts, disengage. There is NOTHING ELSE THERE.

How could the purple wire possibly "detect" a blown fuse??!?!?!

The fact that you use the hot side of the brake light circuit for 12V IS the detection circuit. If the fuse is blown, there's no volts, AVCC will not even power up. That red wire is the AVCC's MAIN power. Blown fuse "detected!" Engagement inhibited.

All I am saying, and all I've said all along, is that connecting the red wire to the hot side of the brake light switch, behind the fuse, is a safety feature, and is the only way the AVCC has to know if the fuse is blown.

If the red wire is connected somewhere else, then the AVCC can engage regardless of the fuse's condition, but the purple wire will never see any voltage to trigger a disengage. There are no volts on that line if the fuse is blown.

If the purple wire sees voltage from something else, some other bleed into the line (as apparently happens on GenII bikes) then the AVCC won't engage, again regardless of the fuse condition or the power source.

But a properly connected AVCC, which may entail a relay on the purple wire, cannot detect the fuse's condition if the red wire is connected anywhere other than behind that fuse. And to me, that's a safety issue. No brake lights, no disengage.

 

[Chuck35]

My Rostra kit arrived today. I have my switch resealed (neutral cure silicone) and the skyway mount ready to go. (Thanks Pinhead) Since I have a backoff module, I have a 5 pin relay and socket at the ready. This will provide (to purple wire) ground when the brakes are off and 12v when brakes applied. I hope to tap into the brake light relay for triggering. I also plan to pick up fused 12v from the brake light relay for the red wire. Thanks guys for the discussion here, and Ken for the write up and engine bay module mounting idea. You have inspired me to get off my *** and get this done. I haven't seen a throttle connection that I am crazy about, but I'll get something cobbled together. The deadline is May 1 when I leave for an Iowa / Chicago trip.

 

[Queensland Ken]

I haven't seen a throttle connection that I am crazy about, but I'll get something cobbled together.

I tried to help a mate out yesterday, we ended up biting the bullet and removed the fuel rail.

Apart from 2 very very tight mounting screws, it was easier than I thought.

Once removed it was easy to drill a mounting hole in that little throttle stop tang.

Just hope my mate remembers how it goes back together.

He didn't want to splice into his ECU plug, so he's mounted a VSS transducer to the rear wheel and taking the Tach signal from the coil.

He can work out the dip switches, lol lol.

 

[Chuck35]

I've seen the stop tang method written up and it seems to work well for many. I've never liked ball chains or "slack" in general around throttles. Many automotive installs get around this with a slotted "pull" on the cable that a pin in the linkage slides thru, some have spring loaded guides for the cable that remain at rest when throttle is applied with cruise off. But for now, I'll do the best I can and upgrade later. I have a speedo healer installed so the speed wire is waiting for me. The only connections I am unsure of yet are those at the brake light relay. If I have gandered its location correctly (in front of the battery) it should be short work. @ Ken, your writeup didn't mention the red wire. Where did you connect it?