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Dangerous Dave

The older I get, the faster I was...
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FJR-Dude wrote: I am currently 1/2 way to a full upgrade on my 05. I just had the forks upgraded and a Penske is on the way. The front end improvement was monstrous. And once I get the back end set up the bike will be leaps and bounds easier to ride quickly.

Hey FJR-Dude, did you get your shock installed yet? I'm looking for an update. We just had a nasty ice storm here last night and no signs of a thaw in sight, so it might be time for me to think about suspension upgrades now. Just wondering if you installed/rode your new shock yet, allowing you to better evaluate the fork work you had done. Also wondering if you'd be willing to divulge the name of your contact at Race-Tech that you said recently acquired an FJR, since he might have a bit more insight on it by now. We definately have a road condition of "unrideable" here now, so I'm gonna want to do something with these forks pretty soon.

Footnote: I can't believe the FJR has a solid steering stem! I've got this nice italian front end stand in the garage and can't use it on the FJR because there's no damn hole to put the pin in. I guess I can use my engine hoist to pick it up...what a pain.

 
Whoops, I just looked back at the original thread and realized it was Traxxion Dynamics, not Racetech with a tech that just picked up an FJR. Gonna have to call them tomorrow.

Here's something interesting I learned today from Racetech; Although many here have said the stock shock is not rebuildable, Racetech offers a gold-valve kit for it! Now here's the bad news...the gold-valve is the ONLY thing they have for it! No spring, no seal head, no bushings. WTF???

They did however quote me about $600 to do my forks, including installing gold-valves for both rebound and compression damping, new springs, new seals and fresh oil. Not as bad as I expected. I still want to get other opinions/estimates. Damn near anything is better than stock.

 
Hmmm. I believe the stock rear shock is a sealed nitrogen filled unit. I don't know how they could change a valve in there. Maybe they fill it back up with nitrogen and seal it up again? If they can even do that I doubt is would be worth the cost compared to replacing the entire shock.

 
I spoke with Race Tech about upgrading the rear shock, and was advised that while they could improve it, it would be better to buy a better shock. The reason given was that the stock shock is an emulsion type that allows the pressurizing gas and the damping oil to intermingle, which can never produce as consistant damping as a well designed shock that keeps the gas and oil seperate.

 
Yes, the shock was installed and I hit the road and put 1700 miles on it in 4 days. It was an enormous improvement. Getting the rear to ride where it's supposed to now made all the difference. The bike now sits considerably higher off the ground, it also just dances though corners, and is unswayed by bumps.

I don't have a contact at Race Tech, the person I was referring to is a suspension tuner himself. He runs, well he IS, California Suspension Works

in Palo Alto CA. His name is Curtis Pell. Has a very plain website. https://www.californiasuspensionworks.com/

Curtis has owned an FJR for over a year now. It was his bike I rode (before the mods and after) that convinced me to make the changes.

His number is - (650) 968-6144. He's quite happy to talk to people about upgrades and such.

The guy at Traxxion just got his FJR a few weeks back. You can call them and ask to talk to "Lee".

The stock shock is NOT rebuildable, or upgradeable in anyway. It is sealed and there is no way to disassemble it and change any internals.

It is also a total hunk of junk.

Dangerous Dave, that's a good price on the upgrade. I doubt you'll find anyone that can/will do it for less. (Both comp/reb valves and new springs that is)

-The Dude

 
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those of you going w/ aftermarket rear shocks are you running Penske, Ohins or the Wilbers?

I've always prefered Penske and have had that on one race bike, an Ohlins on my current track bike, and have friends who say the Wilburs is as good as either of the others.. and these days I can probably get a better deal on the Ohlins or Wilburs so just curious about what everyone preferences are for shocks.

also are any of you having the geometry checked out or computracked? I'd love to have a bit more weight bias in the front and more clearance so a longer rear shock is always good but wasn't sure what it would do to the handling of the bike. I do get to use mine on the track every so often (just did about 120 miles on it at Jennings over thanksgiving weekend, all two up) so having some extra clearance would be a big bonus for me...

just figured I'd see what kind of ride height you were playing with vs. stock...

Jeff

 
Yes, the shock was installed and I hit the road and put 1700 miles on it in 4 days. It was an enormous improvement. Getting the rear to ride where it's supposed to now made all the difference. The bike now sits considerably higher off the ground, it also just dances though corners, and is unswayed by bumps.
I don't have a contact at Race Tech, the person I was referring to is a suspension tuner himself.

<snip>

The guy at Traxxion just got his FJR a few weeks back. You can call them and ask to talk to "Lee".

The stock shock is NOT rebuildable, or upgradeable in anyway. It is sealed and there is no way to disassemble it and change any internals.

It is also a total hunk of junk.

Dangerous Dave, that's a good price on the upgrade. I doubt you'll find anyone that can/will do it for less. (Both comp/reb valves and new springs that is)

-The Dude
Yes, I realized my mistake about who was where after re-reading the original thread (see my second post in this thread). I did talk to Traxxion and Lee has not done anything to his FJR suspension as yet. They were also the highest price I've been quoted thus far. I also just discovered that Aftershocks is now an authorized dealer for Traxxion Dynamics "Axxion valves". I also wouldn't bank on the estimate I got from Racetech just yet, as I'm not totally convinced the chick I talked to knew shit from Shinola. I am going to call them again and try to pin down a firmer price from someone who sounds like they know whazzup.

As far as the rear shock goes, no disputing it's a piece of crap, but Racetech definately sells a rebound gold valve for that piece of crap and says they'll install it. Go figure. As I said, the fact that they have NO OTHER PARTS for that shock tells me immediately that putting any money into it would be a bad idea. The weather here is going from bad to worse, so I'll probably be pulling the front end soon. If only my budget could keep pace with my wish list, I'd get it all and call it a day. Until then, I have to choose my mods as my wallet allows...best bang for the buck...ya know? :)

 
Yes, the shock was installed and I hit the road and put 1700 miles on it in 4 days. It was an enormous improvement. Getting the rear to ride where it's supposed to now made all the difference. The bike now sits considerably higher off the ground, it also just dances though corners, and is unswayed by bumps.
I don't have a contact at Race Tech, the person I was referring to is a suspension tuner himself.

<snip>

The guy at Traxxion just got his FJR a few weeks back. You can call them and ask to talk to "Lee".

The stock shock is NOT rebuildable, or upgradeable in anyway. It is sealed and there is no way to disassemble it and change any internals.

It is also a total hunk of junk.

Dangerous Dave, that's a good price on the upgrade. I doubt you'll find anyone that can/will do it for less. (Both comp/reb valves and new springs that is)

-The Dude
Yes, I realized my mistake about who was where after re-reading the original thread (see my second post in this thread). I did talk to Traxxion and Lee has not done anything to his FJR suspension as yet. They were also the highest price I've been quoted thus far. I also just discovered that Aftershocks is now an authorized dealer for Traxxion Dynamics "Axxion valves". I also wouldn't bank on the estimate I got from Racetech just yet, as I'm not totally convinced the chick I talked to knew shit from Shinola. I am going to call them again and try to pin down a firmer price from someone who sounds like they know whazzup.

As far as the rear shock goes, no disputing it's a piece of crap, but Racetech definately sells a rebound gold valve for that piece of crap and says they'll install it. Go figure. As I said, the fact that they have NO OTHER PARTS for that shock tells me immediately that putting any money into it would be a bad idea. The weather here is going from bad to worse, so I'll probably be pulling the front end soon. If only my budget could keep pace with my wish list, I'd get it all and call it a day. Until then, I have to choose my mods as my wallet allows...best bang for the buck...ya know? :)
Good morning everyone. I placed my order for a Penske 8981 last Wednesday and expect it any day now. Sometime after the holidays, I plan on respringing and revalving the front forks to match the Penske that'll soon be mounted out back.

I've got some R&D to do for the rear spring rate and will be starting with a 950 pounder. I've not personally tested the OEM rear spring yet but I have been told it is somewhere between 600-700 lb/inch. I'll know more after the Penske is installed and then check/adjust my rear sag #'s.

I haven't decided yet if I'm going to go with the AK-20 cartridge kit or revalve the OEM cartridges. Time, and finances after the holiday season will determine what my course of action will be. I plan on keeping the FJR for a few years since it is such a great platform for sport-touring. The Traxxion Dynamics Axxion valve assemblies are bolt in ready since they are basically the same as what is used in the FZ1. So, should I ever decide to sell the FJR, I could pop the good valves out and throw in the OEM stuff and sell the bike. I wouldn't be stuck with selling FJR and losing the valving upgrade like most owners. The AK-20 cartridges are very sweet though. If Max would give me a good price on them... :D

Oh, FJR-Dude - would that be you "Desmo"?

 
I've not personally tested the OEM rear spring yet but I have been told it is somewhere between 600-700 lb/inch.
According to Racetech's website, the stock spring is 9-11 kg/mm. Sorry, but I'm MUCH too tired to do the conversion for you now.

 
Yah Lee, it's me. :D

BTW - What's your take on RT saying they can install different valving in the OEM shock?? That's certainly news to me.

Dave, the gal you spoke to at Aftershocks likely knew her stuff. I've talked to her before as well. She went right to Phil to ask what the cost was when I asked about it. Aftershocks only installs the rebound valves, and RT springs. They do not feel the compression valve needs replacing. I believe the cost I was quoted was $550 if I brought the forks to them.

Are you local to them? I'm just 10 minutes away.

 
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Yah Lee, it's me. :D
BTW - What's your take on RT saying they can install different valving in the OEM shock?? That's certainly news to me.

Dave, the gal you spoke to at Aftershocks likely knew her stuff. I've talked to her before as well. She went right to Phil to ask what the cost was when I asked about it. Aftershocks only installs the rebound valves, and RT springs. They do not feel the compression valve needs replacing. I believe the cost I was quoted was $550 if I brought the forks to them.

Are you local to them? I'm just 10 minutes away.
Would that be the same "Lee" from T/D?? The person I spoke to at T/D asked if I wanted to talk to Lee personally, but since he told me Lee had not yet done anything with his FJR suspension, I didn't see the point.

The girl I spoke to but didn't trust her price quote was at R/T not Aftershocks. She's the one who quoted me $600 for springs, both gold valves, seals, oil, and labor. You know, if it sounds too good to be true................

The girl I spoke to at Aftershocks said the guy I needed to talk to was out, but she'd have him call me back. I never got that call, so still haven't gotten a quote from Aftershocks.

I'll be interested to hear Lee's take on that whole 'gold valve in the stock shock' thang.

 
Yes, sportryder is in fact Lee from Traxxion. While Lee hasn't done anything with HIS bike...I am pretty sure they have installed an AK20 setup in another customers bike.

Lee is good people! I've ridden with him, and he took me on a tour of Traxxion last year.

 
BTW - What's your take on RT saying they can install different valving in the OEM shock?? That's certainly news to me.
I'll let you know after I mount up the Penske 8981 and take a good look at the OEM shock.

On a side note, I've seen quite a few shocks over the past couple of years while at Traxxion that were supposedly "non-rebuildable". They had peening indentations at the seal head that needed to be drilled out in order to disassemble the shock for inspection or servicing. Some fork cartridge manufacturers do the same thing to their cartridge bodies to prevent disassembly. The "experts" have the means and knowledge to work around this.

The real question; is it worth it to rebuild a POS shock with minimal adjustment range and/or not having adjustments in key areas (compression)?

To give an example - you rebuild/revalve/respring an OEM shock. You spend 250-350 $$ depending on where you source the work for all of that. You still have limited adjustment range or are missing key areas of adjustability. This just isn't cost effective in many cases. And in particular, not a good deal at all for an "emulsion" shock like the FJR OEM shock.

Now, should you purchase a Penske, you could use it for 2-3 years, decide to sell the bike, pull it off and put the OEM POS shock back on. Sell the Penske separately for 50-70 percent of what you paid for it. So, for less than the cost of that OEM POS shock rebuild/revalve/respring, you had the use of an outstanding shock that had 4 areas of adjustability - preload, rebound, compression, and ride height (shock length eye to eye). This is the argument I present to our customers. It just makes sense.

Regarding the forks - The springs are far too soft. Changing them is necessary to support the bike properly but will need the valving on the rebound side changed out. Some folks will say - Well, there's nothing wrong with the valving. I'll just run heavier weight oil and that will work to control the stiffer springs. Then, they find the compression valving is too stiff and the bike doesn't absorb bumps well. So, they wonder what they are going to do. The proper solution is to revalve both compression and rebound and use the proper weight oil for both valving assemblies. We've already done all that testing for the customer. Do it right the first time.

Different suspension shops have different opinions on what works. I can say this though - Traxxion Dynamics is more expensive than many others. I know what you get from TD. I don't know what the other shops provide in their "standard rebuild". I've done the work and after doing it, I cannot understand how some people think it is expensive. For "value" received, it's well worth it. The most amazing thing to me is how many motorcycle owners will spend 800-1000 $$ on a rear shock but will balk on spending that kind of money on the forks. Well, the forks not only hold the front of the bike up, they steer, and hold the wheel that provides over 70 percent of the braking. You won't ever convince me they are less important than a shock. B)

 
Lee, I'm with you on all you've said...here are my thoughts.

I realize that all the rebuilding, revalving, respringing money can buy (let's call it the three Rs) will never make the stock shock compare to a quality aftermarket unit. I also put greater importance on the forks than the shock, although I realize both are important. I had the forks on my R1 done by Lindemans, but still had a stock rear shock. I then rode my buddies virtually identical R1 with an Ohlins rear installed on the Deal's Gap Dragon. At the risk of sounding nerdy, it was breathtaking! I immediately understood what all the hubub was about. With that said, sometimes budget constraints force us to assess priorities. I'm currently putting my kid through college...trust me...that'll put a kink in your wallet! My stock shock is crappy, but my forks are ATROCIOUS. I REALLY want to get my forks done over the winter (it's currently about 15*F here with about 6" of snow on the ground), but I still have to figure out how I'm gonna pay for that. So if the possibility existed to make noticeable improvements to the shock for a couple hundred bucks, I'd be all over that. Good investment or not, I just can't swing eight or nine bills for a shock.

My bigger concern with getting the 3 Rs done to the stock shock is the fact that no seal head is available...or spring for that matter. 20+ years as a mechanic has taught me that if you disturb a seal that has any age on it, and don't replace it while you're there, it's almost sure to leak. I DEFINATELY wouldn't want to spend two or three hundred bucks for a rebuild and have it puke three hundred miles later! I would be very interested to know if it's possible to take the top preload adjuster lever/cable assembly off the shock, dial in more initial preload, and reinstall the adjuster. THAT would help a little right from the git-go for free!

Now back to the forks; I'm kinda going on the assumption that the Axxion valves are simply Traxxion's iteration of the R/T Gold valves. Neither one necesarily being better than the other...just two different means to an end. I believe both shops have qualified technicians on board, so again (unfortunately) alot of it comes down to price for me. That's not to say I automatically go the cheapest route, but if two shops are going to do virtually identical work (regardless of the catchy part names) and one is two hundred bucks cheaper, I can tell you which way I'm going. Unfortunately, Traxxion is the highest I've been quoted so far, but again, I'm not sure I believe the quote I got from R/T. The AK-20 cartridges sound pretty sweet, but the pricetag about made me lose my lunch. I've got more phone calls to make yet, but I'm gonna do something soon.

 
I had the forks on my R1 done by Lindemans, but still had a stock rear shock. I then rode my buddies virtually identical R1 with an Ohlins rear installed on the Deal's Gap Dragon. At the risk of sounding nerdy, it was breathtaking! I immediately understood what all the hubub was about.
No one ever seems to undertstand untill they ride it that way! My R1 has a Lindemann front/Penske rear setup. It is so far different than stock, it's hard to describe.

 
No one ever seems to undertstand untill they ride it that way! My R1 has a Lindemann front/Penske rear setup. It is so far different than stock, it's hard to describe.
Jeff, you may have already guessed that the Ohlins equipped R1 I rode was none other than our boy Willie's. The best way I could describe the ride is taught, yet composed and supple. It was like magic! I look forward to when my kid is done with college and I can actually afford a high end shock myself. I have a Fox on my racebike and a Works on my Derbi. Like I said, I understand the importance of a good shock...my wallet just doesn't always agree. :dribble:

 
No one ever seems to undertstand untill they ride it that way! My R1 has a Lindemann front/Penske rear setup. It is so far different than stock, it's hard to describe.
Jeff, you may have already guessed that the Ohlins equipped R1 I rode was none other than our boy Willie's. The best way I could describe the ride is taught, yet composed and supple. It was like magic!....
Actually, I had not guessed it was Willy's!

It is sad but true. The best farkle is suspension, but also the most expensive. I now figure it in to the cost of the bike. Suspension is a "must have" for me. Good luck on your future acquisions.

 
The AK-20 cartridges sound pretty sweet, but the pricetag about made me lose my lunch.
I can understand that. Something a lot of people don't realize is they can be very easily ported over to another motorcycle. With a couple of minor changes, the state of the art fork upgrade becomes significantly less expensive each time they are moved to another motorcycle. The major expense has been paid and with much higher quality components vs upgrading the valving with the OEM cartridge bodies.

As an example - first motorcycle is upgraded with the AK-20 cart kit. Cost: around $1k. Decision is made to sell the motorcycle. Pull the AK-20 carts out, insert OEM carts and springs, sell the bike. Send AK-20 carts to Traxxion for 'retrofitting" for next motorcycle. Cost less than $200. The cost of 2 motorcycles to have state of the art suspension dampers is now $1200. And the quality of the components is much better than upgrading the valves on the OEM cartridge bodies.

I could go into the details of the advantages much further but just to give a quick list: OEM cartridge bodies have an ID spec of +- .002" for the length of the body. They are not hard anodized. Most cartridge assemblies use a 10 mm cartridge rod. The bushing where the rod enters the body of the cartridge is the only seal there is. AK-20 cartridge has an ID spec of +- 1/2 of .001" for the length of the body. I personally precision honed the first 125 of them and trained my replacement to do it. It's a nasty job and to make that job more interesting, my goal was to have less than 2/10ths of .001" on the runout for the ID. All of the parts of the AK-20 are hard coat anodized. The oil stays cleaner and there is no wear on the parts. The cartridge rod is 12.5 mm in OD so pressure differentials build much quicker than when using a 10 mm rod. Max has also designed a Patent-Pending low friction seal at the cartridge bushing. The number of "bleed" points on the AK-20 is far less than the OEM cartridges. These things are superbly designed and crafted in-house.

I believe in them and know what we go through to provide them to enthusiasts. The other players in this aftermarket cartridge "kit" segment don't even come close to Traxxion Dynamics pricing. The least expensive alternative starts at almost $1800 and I doubt seriously as well crafted as TD's.

Max has publicly stated he'll put them up against any fork at any price. He also proved it at the racetrack this year at many places all over the world.

 
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