Bike Wont Start

[thinkingofone]

RiderJoe thxs and hope all is good with you...dealer explained it that the carbon when hot turns soft and having the bike sit for a week gave it a chance to harden up which resulted in the no start failure...bike is apart now so really what choice do I have but to let them work on it

 

[mshrout]

Im sorry to hear about my wife's and your condition as well..thxs

Prayers for you and your wife. Not that this post will make you feel any better, but I experienced this same issue on my 08 YZ450 last year. 5 valve genesis head. 3 exhaust valves and 2 intakes. Short story, I completely rebuilt the motor and it only had 20 hours on the rebuild and was running very well. I put in a gallon of race fuel 102 octane (12.5-1 compression ) and went out for a trail ride. Mistake. its race fuel, and I didn't race.. I trail rode the bike that day. came home and drained fuel out of tank and carb as I knew it wasn't going to be used for a month or so. Came back 45 days later and kicked it over. Nothing. then kick starter just limped thru stroke and nothing, NO compression, nothing. Pulled cam cover and I could see daylight under one of the buckets next to cam, NOT good. Exhaust valve was in the stuck open position. Luckily, no contact was made with piston. But I had to tear it down and pull head. Upon further inspection, the valve stems were coated with fuel residue (race fuel ) and the guides were completely dry, which caused the valve to stick open, no lubrication on valve stem and me not racing the engine to get a complete burn of the race fuel. this left a residue on the valve stems (sticky). I cleaned all valves, installed new valve springs just in case, as stockers were still in spec, but put new ones in anyway. coated all valve stems with lube and put back together. Runs great with no damage. Your FJR should not have seized this way, unless your fuel quality on that last tank was questionable. maybe some water in the fuel? but you would have noticed a power fall off or poor running with H2O in fuel. it should clean up well, but I know the labor costs will sting. Hope your wife stays strong as I know you and your family have more important tasks ahead than your bike. keep us posted on the repairs, ask the tech to remove the valves (he will have to anyway to clean them and reseat them.) ask him to check for any fuel residue on the stems.

 

[RiderJoe]

Thinkingofone, I am doing as well as I can, trying to keep a positive attitude.
I find the reasoning the dealer gave you hard to believe, but you are right: at this point you don’t have many options to choose from. I hope that the issue will get resolved in your favor soon!
I wish all the best to you and your family!

Sincerely,

RiderJoe

 

[Sworch]

My first thought on reading this and the excessive carbon would be a gasket leak allowing oil in the cylinders. If so a few hours of cleaning abd a new gasket would fix this. Not $2k. But it should have been smoking out the exhaust whether it was oil or something else.

 

[torch]

It is possible that a chunk of carbon broke off and jammed a valve partially open. it doesn't take much to lower the compression in that cylinder dramatically. It's also possible that rings can stick as a result of carbon, again, dropping compression dramatically. Did the dealer mention a difference between the initial test and a "wet test"? (adding a teaspoon of oil into the cylinder can temporarily seal things and raise compression).

On the other hand, it's equally possible that the dealer's mechanic was using a compression gauge with a rubber hose (rubber expands, limiting pressure build-up) or the wrong Schraeder valve (regular ones intended for tire use have a spring that is too stiff, but they look nearly identical).

The real question, as addressed above, is how did a 2022 FJR engine accumulate so heavy a build-up in only 27,000 miles? My 03 didn't have that with 300,000 (I know -- I checked with a borescope). How much oil did it consume between changes? Did the engine temp ever rise above 1 bar? Because unless you were filling the tank with a mixture of diesel fuel and used paint thinner I can't think of any other possible causes.

 

[Diablo1]

That’s an unusual amount of carbon on the pistons for the mileage. What do the plugs look like? Does your bike get normal gas mileage around 40-45 mpg? Was the oil overfilled? Is there oil or heavy carbon on the backside of the intake valves? It’s possible that your oil rings are allowing oil up into the combustion chamber, and I’d be asking if Yamaha made some change in recent years to the rings. Manufacturers have been reducing ring tension to lessen friction and this sometimes causes excess oil consumption. Does your bike use any oil between oil changes? How much if any oil do you add between oil changes? I would also check the crankcase oil and have it analyzed for gas contamination. If you have a leaking injector that dilutes the oil, the lowered viscosity may allow the oil to get past the rings.

 

[John Scottorn]

Hello.. my computer always has this page open and not that it's anyone's business but my wife has F'ing cancer so I have more important things to worry about than dropping everything to answer comments here which for the most part I greatly appreciate... the dealer is Wheel Sport Center in New Rochelle.. those are the pics of my engine apart.. thxs and really hope I'm not on the don't bother to help list

 

[RiderJoe]

All ideas mentioned in the previous three posts are possibilities, but carbon builds up over time, and as others suggested, there would have been noticeable warning sins of it happening, and not a sudden failure of all 4 cylinders. The “valves stuck open’ explanation from the dealer after the bike sat for a week isn’t likely because only one set of intake valves are open at any given time. (Exhaust valves are less likely to build up carbon to begin with.) If there were manufacturing changes made to FJRs that would mean a lot more reports of this kind would be mentioned in the forums. It seems though per the photos that carbon did build up in a relatively short time and the cause of that is unknown. Bad gas quality is unlikely, since on the 7k trip many different fuel brands would be used, and not all bad ones.

 

[RossKean]

I think it could likely have been started if the OP had been persistent with the WOT method (and a fully charged battery). Fair chance that some or most of the carbon could have been cleaned up with "spirited" riding, good quality fuel and the use of Techron or Yamaha Ring-Free.

Still, it doesn't tell me why there was this much buildup on the piston tops in the first place. Answers to @Diablo1 questions (above) might help. The possibility of overfilled oil, in particular, might be good to know and I would love to see how the sparkplugs looked. I doubt that there is an issue with piston ring changes or we would be seeing more of this. In addition to oil consumption between changes, I would be curious as to what oil was used and if any additives were used.

Edit: Have a look at your airbox and see if there is any oil in it. This could happen if oil was overfilled...
Any blue smoke?

 

[Archer]

I'm appreciative for thinkingofone. Thanks.

What questions can be asked to the exhaust porting based on the picture of the overhead cams? Does it look so clean on the way out? Asking for a friend.

 

[RiderJoe]

The photos posted by the OP show that the buildup is mostly on the intake side of the cylinders The exhaust side of the head and valves look relatively clean.

RossKean brought up a good point about the possibility of oil in the airbox. It could provide an explanation to some of the symptoms.

 

[Bounce]

Hello.. my computer always has this page open and not that it's anyone's business but my wife has F'ing cancer so I have more important things to worry about than dropping everything to answer comments here which for the most part I greatly appreciate... the dealer is Wheel Sport Center in New Rochelle.. those are the pics of my engine apart.. thxs and really hope I'm not on the don't bother to help list

My support for you and your wife. My wife just did her annual follow up with her medical oncologist this week. She is 8 years post-cancer (breast lumpectomy, lymph nodes and a regimen of Anasterzole to purge all estrogen from her system since the cancer is was estrogen-driven). 2 more years to go. All that to say, I understand the pressure you both are going through.

So take a deep breath and remember that all these people who seem to be bugging you are on your side too and only trying to help.

Looks like a lot of interesting input into possible resolutions are well as valid questions about stuck-open valves vs getting ANY psi in a leak-down test.

Well wishes and prayers for your wife.

Might I request that you close your browser when not actively on your computer? Those open tabs keep open connections to every server at the other end of every tab which limits the access/speed/etc for others using those systems as the servers have to keep handshaking back and forth (probably every second) to keep that connection alive. as just encountered over on FJRRiders. Consuming limited ports for others, memory overhead for each live connection (slowing the server as that eats up available ram), and blocking others from logging in.
.

 

[2GENAE]

I think it could likely have been started if the OP had been persistent with the WOT method (and a fully charged battery). Fair chance that some or most of the carbon could have been cleaned up with "spirited" riding, good quality fuel and the use of Techron or Yamaha Ring-Free.

Still, it doesn't tell me why there was this much buildup on the piston tops in the first place. Answers to @Diablo1 questions (above) might help. The possibility of overfilled oil, in particular, might be good to know and I would love to see how the sparkplugs looked. I doubt that there is an issue with piston ring changes or we would be seeing more of this. In addition to oil consumption between changes, I would be curious as to what oil was used and if any additives were used.

Edit: Have a look at your airbox and see if there is any oil in it. This could happen if oil was overfilled...
Any blue smoke?

Have you used a 50/50 mix to clean injectors and carbon off valves with Seafoam ? I use it for winter storage no ethanol issues after a long winter. I've never used Yamaha fing free.

 

[thinkingofone]

want to first thank everyone for their thoughts and well wishes...the dealer called me today and said he spoke with the local rep and showed him the pictures and they decided it was caused by a fuel issue and my fault so yamaha wont cover it...any thoughts on my next step? thxs again

 

[SkooterG]

want to first thank everyone for their thoughts and well wishes...the dealer called me today and said he spoke with the local rep and showed him the pictures and they decided it was caused by a fuel issue and my fault so yamaha wont cover it...any thoughts on my next step? thxs again

Find a used engine on ebay or somewhere else. Much cheaper than rebuilding.

 

[RossKean]

How did they "decide" it was a fuel issue? Assuming you actually used gasoline, no fuel sold in North America should do that! Comment above relating to paint thinner and diesel fuel comes to mind.

Probably too late to see if there was an oil overfill or to get a sample for diagnostic analysis. That might tell you if a mechanical issue was a root cause.

Unless you can DIY, clean and rebuild is a lot of shop hours (but maybe not parts) and , as suggested by @SkooterG , a low mileage eBay engine is likely cheaper.

Local rep? I think I would try to escalate it to corporate HQ before giving up. I bet your local guys just didn't want the hassle - I wonder if the dealer actually talked to anyone? Who ever heard of denying a valid warranty claim on an engine failing for "bad fuel"? ******** comes to mind...

 

[saread]

How did they "decide" it was a fuel issue? Assuming you actually used gasoline, no fuel sold in North America should do that! Comment above relating to paint thinner and diesel fuel comes to mind.

Probably too late to see if there was an oil overfill or to get a sample for diagnostic analysis. That might tell you if a mechanical issue was a root cause.

Unless you can DIY, clean and rebuild is a lot of shop hours (but maybe not parts) and , as suggested by @SkooterG , a low mileage eBay engine is likely cheaper.

Local rep? I think I would try to escalate it to corporate HQ before giving up. I bet your local guys just didn't want the hassle - I wonder if the dealer actually talked to anyone? Who ever heard of denying a valid warranty claim on an engine failing for "bad fuel"? ******** comes to mind...

Exactly. A couple of things come to mind, a really rich condition which points to an EFI issue, a PAIR system malfunction where it was pulling crankcase gases without closing the valve, and possibly a rider issue if it was lugged for a long time. But what it isn't, is a fuel quality issue. You are right about the quality of gasoline sold in NA. Even if it's not Top Tier gas, the level of detergent mandated by the Fed's is more than adequate. Would have liked to get a nose on the oil. Really rich should show up in the pan and maybe the cylinder walls. A PAIR system issue should show up in the intake runners and clear back to the valve cover. The gunk in the cylinders looks suspiciously like the gunk that covers the reeds in the valve cover. But, I'm speculating without the motor on my bench. I just know it isn't fuel quality.

 

[Diablo1]

if they didn’t send out a sample of gas from the tank for a chemical analysis, I wouldn’t believe their assumption that the carbon buildup was caused by bad gas. Take a sample yourself and have it analyzed.

 

[RossKean]

Oil analysis (and deposit analysis) would have been of enormous value. Fuel in the oil. Antifreeze/water in the oil (head gasket/cracked block). As well as various metals showing up due to unusual wear. What they have done is to point the finger at the OP without any evidence that he was responsible.

As mentioned earlier, an oil overfill might cause problems. Would be good to know if any oil showed up in the airbox. Was the oil changed by the owner or by a Yamaha shop?

 

[richardsutton]

want to first thank everyone for their thoughts and well wishes...the dealer called me today and said he spoke with the local rep and showed him the pictures and they decided it was caused by a fuel issue and my fault so yamaha wont cover it...any thoughts on my next step? thxs again

As others have said, this is total nonsense unless you have mis-fuelled the bike with diesel, or similar, or seriously overfilled the crankcase with oil although, in both cases, the amount of smoke coming out of the exhaust during your last ride home would have been obvious.
If you have done either of these things, the dealer will have retained samples or photos as proof. If the dealer does not have this proof, then, in the UK, Yahama would have no choice but to fix the bike at their expense under the warranty. If they refused, a short court case would ensue, which would cost you nothing, and the Judge would ask to see the proof from the dealer. If the dealer cannot provide that proof, and they clearly don't have any or you would have seen it already, the Judge will instruct Yahama to undertake the repairs.