Bombshell* - Traction Control now legal in AMA racing

[Randy]

https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=26412

All forms of traction control are now legal in AMA Superbike and Formula Extreme. Traction control is now legal in Supersport and Superstock, but, it must utilize OEM sensors. It will be interesting to find out if manufacturers have some form of sensor built into the ECU that wasn't advertised which will now be able to be 'turned on'.

I think this will be the first step towards bikes, expecially liter bikes, coming stock with traction control.

Thoughts???

 

[exskibum]

It'd be nice if it does lead to affordable OEM traction control on stock street bikes. My fear is that this may make it even more difficult for privateers to compete, though -- at least for a while.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

I have never read much about traction control for bikes. I assume that it involves automatic throttle/braking action?

 

[Randy]

It'd be nice if it does lead to affordable OEM traction control on stock street bikes. My fear is that this may make it even more difficult for privateers to compete, though -- at least for a while.

They can't compete now. With Superbike, after the factories, for the most part, it's the Jordan bikes and then everyone else. Assuming the Jordan bikes get traction control, it will be a battle for 12th place. Is it worth it spending $8K to finish a few spots higher (assuming everyone else does it)?

I do think it will lead to affordable OEM traction control, at least on the liter class bikes anyway.

 

[panthercity]

XB-RRs come with TC.

 

[Randy]

I have never read much about traction control for bikes. I assume that it involves automatic throttle/braking action?

I haven't heard of anything other than it doing anything other than controlling engine speed, not braking. I may be wrong. Simply speaking, I'm assuming it works by having a front wheel speed sensor and a rear wheel speed sensor. When the rear wheel speed sensor detects and abnormal amount of speed difference, it eases the power being delivered to the rear wheel. It would have to be gentle, otherwise, a severe unsettling of the suspension would occur causing more problems that what its worth. Perhaps the gentleness could be achieved by gently applying the rear brake to reduce wheel spin similar to the mechanical way that many of the top racers do it?? It may also have a bank angle sensor that would allow a certain amount of spin if the bike isn't banked over too far, i dunno.

Once the technology is there, it can be modified for launch control and wheelie control.

 

[twowheelnut]

A lot of automotive TC's either employee the ABS or borrow the ABS sensors to sense slip and cut power or both. This would be a good thing for motorcycles, IMO. Course, I'm the kinda guy that likes linked brakes...

Prediction: off to NERT and 7 to 8 pages of name calling and flaming!

 

[panthercity]

Randy, with today's computing power, rather than compare front and rear wheel speed, you just look at rear wheel accelration. Too many variables to take into account comparing. Wouldn't want to cut engine power on corner exit because the front wheel is in the air and not accelerating like the rear, now would you...

So, the ECU knows what the accelration curve of the wheel itself should look like for a given throttle opening in a given gear. If the curve is X% steeper, then timing is ******** (the gentlest way to reduce power). If that doesn't do it, the fuel delivery is trimed.

 

[Windjammer]

Seems to me that the old Honda ST1100 came with traction control (TCS) available as an option. So the capability of putting TCS on a large streetbike has been there for awhile, since the 1990's anyway. As far as why the feature never made it onto other models, I'd guess it has more to do with cost and what people are willing to pay. The 600cc sportbike category is fairly price competitive, for example, and bikes in this class are usually built to a price point if they are intended for the masses. OTOH, the ST1100 was intended to compete against BMW, so there was more room in the ST's price for add-on options like TCS. But there could have been other factors besides price.

As for the AMA, I thought they were trying to get away from this business of last minute, mid-season rule changes, and go more toward a rules making process that gave all teams adequate time to plan their designs to meet the rules. This rule change is very convenient for teams that were perhaps already using traction control, or had designs waiting in the wings. Other teams are now left to scramble mid-season to remain competitive. Thumbs down to the AMA, IMO, for reverting to their old ways on this. This rule change should have been announced as "effective for 2007 season" not "effective immediately" - but that's just my opinion.

Then there's the question of whether it's a good idea to allow traction control in racing. My guess would be that this decision has already been made by the FIM, and the AMA is just following their lead. Perhaps making the first steps toward bringing all Superbike and Supersport rules into harmony worldwide. Whether or not traction control will be "good for racing" remains to be seen.

 

[panthercity]

Jammer, the big problem with outlawing traction control is enforcement, as F1 learned a while back. I think what the AMA did was basically acknowledge that they couldn't control it. Something that is allowed by the rules is generally less expensive to create and implement than something that isn't...

 

[Randy]

Above and beyond implementing the technology, do you think it will make riders change the way they ride if they aren't used to it? Look at Yates...he's the poster child for dark stripes out of corners.

Do you think the intelligence is there to know other factors such as position of rear wheel in relation to front wheel? In other words, will it allow the bike to get a little sideways, but, once it gets to that magical spot where a highside is about to happen, it does something magical to help bring the bike back into shape?

 

[afterburn]

The Honda's in MotoGP have TC, but that doesn't stop Nicky from painting the road black while sliding sideways through corner doing 150mph...

 

[panthercity]

Above and beyond implementing the technology, do you think it will make riders change the way they ride if they aren't used to it? Look at Yates...he's the poster child for dark stripes out of corners.

Aye, there's the rub. Sometimes TC is helpful, sometimes wheelspin is helpful. Somtimes, the best/quickest/only way to get the bike to finish the corner is by rotating it around the steering stem. If the bike has good turn-in and mid-corner but doesn't like to finish off the turn, spinning it up and kicking it out can be uselful.

Long term, yes, riders will learn to use the TC to their benefit. If for no other reason than tire longevity. Butt, it, like other "improvements" will change the way the chassis is set up.

Do you think the intelligence is there to know other factors such as position of rear wheel in relation to front wheel? In other words, will it allow the bike to get a little sideways, but, once it gets to that magical spot where a highside is about to happen, it does something magical to help bring the bike back into shape?

Sure, accelerometers can compare angular momentum front to rear. You're now getting into some real fine calculations. I'd imagine there would be a slew of software induced highsides before that was worked out. From my own experience, I'd take quite a few lowsides to one highside. Butt, that's just me...

 

[Windjammer]

Jammer, the big problem with outlawing traction control is enforcement

Agreed, enforcement is difficult. Prolly not impossible though. If a way can be found to make the technology work, then a way can be found to detect that it's working.

For the record, I'm not against traction control in racing. In fact, as a cornerworker for many years, I'm all in favor of technology that improves safety for the rider. Makes my job easier in the bargain! B)

The only part of this I disliked was the return of the last minute, mid-season rule change. I'm not sure the traction control decision was BAD in and of itself, I just don't like to see the AMA taking a step backward toward last minute rule changes. Bad precedent for the future.

 

[jestal]

I would think that a sophisticated traction control system would use the brake intervetion first and then follow with engine power reduction via spark ******, cylinder cut out, etc. Application of the brake is the only way to stop rapidly developing wheel spin as engine intervention alone is proably too slow to save a sudden, dramatic level of wheel spin. Think about the fact that if the tire has started to spin hard then reducing engine power will not be what is stopping the wheel spin. It just prevents it from getting worse. The spinning tire has inertia and the only thing to slow it back down is grip from the pavement....or brake apply which is faster. A traction control system should intervene and stop wheel spin if desired...not just cut power and wait for the tire to catch up with the pavement.

Traction control can be tuned to provide a variety of levels of wheel spin. It is not a black and white "the wheel will not spin" sort of thing.

Primary control of wheel spin is done by brakes on all sophisticated automotive traction control system. The engine power reduction is there primarily to reduce the load on the brakes....not improve traction per se.

The system would likely use a yaw sensor on the chassis to detech chassis lean angles and relative position to the tires and steering angle. Yaw sensors are very common in cars with electronic stability control system.

 

[panthercity]

Jammer, the big problem with outlawing traction control is enforcement

Agreed, enforcement is difficult. Prolly not impossible though. If a way can be found to make the technology work, then a way can be found to detect that it's working.

F1, with all its $$ and technology couldn't find a way to consistently enforce a prohibition of traction control or launch control. Not saying it couldn't be done, butt...

jestal, at some point, brakes will become more of a factor in bike TC. Currently, automotive braking systems are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of bikes' systems.

Gonna be a fascinating decade, eh?

 

[LGizmo]

https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=26412All forms of traction control are now legal in AMA Superbike and Formula Extreme. Traction control is now legal in Supersport and Superstock, but, it must utilize OEM sensors. It will be interesting to find out if manufacturers have some form of sensor built into the ECU that wasn't advertised which will now be able to be 'turned on'.

I think this will be the first step towards bikes, expecially liter bikes, coming stock with traction control.

Thoughts???

Rumor has it that the 06 R6 ECU allready has this built in but the rest of the system(sensors.. Etc) weren't installed do to the SuperSport/Stock Rules but where waiting to release it in the 07 model... The number one goal of traction contro on these bikes is only to minimize drastic differences in Front/Rear wheel speed to help eliminate wheelies and help out most on holeshot starts. Who knows may even come with a button/switch to allow rider to turn the system on/off when its not wanted.

another note is that more then likely this will be controlled via the throttle as many race bikes use fly by wire throttle systems and the 06 R6 is the only street model to include this feature. Those who are fortunate enough to get to ride or own one of these bikes can attest to one thing.... The fly by wire throttle is like having a wire tapped directly into your brain. So reducing power via throttle ecu for traction control would be VERY affective.