BREAK IN

[twowheelnut]

That's fine. Tell me why you think this. What is this based on?

Er, simple. 'The Motoman Method' is not listed in any owners manual that I know of. So, the combined knowledge of tens of thousands of engineers in all of automodom and motorcycledom are to be proved wrong that Motoman knows their product better?

Sorry, I ain't biting.

My point is, still, if you want to prove something wrong, then supply the data to back it up.

Back atcha, CO...

 

[jestal]

Jeez....this has all the makings of another oil arguement.

There are a lot of things involved with engine breakin and not all engines are the same. One of the problems is that everyone (including Motoman) tries to apply one set of rules to everything assuming they are best.

Given the accuracy of machining and finishing of modern engine surfaces it is doubtful that you could hurt anything doing a Motoman breakin. In my opinion, it is also doubtful that anything will really be helped. The engine breakin will certainly happen quicker but I have a hard time understanding how it will be better ultimately.

Many of the admonitions in the owners manual regarding breakin address more than just the engine.... Transmission, final drive, brakes, etc... all fit into the "break in" category.

Brakes, for instance, need to be bedded in for maximum braking effectiveness. Use the brakes too hard too soon without bedding them in first and they can be damaged. So...tell the owner to "take it easy" on the engine and they will likely take it easy on the brakes, too.

The legal eagles also have their say. I can only imagine the lawsuits from publishing a Motoman-like mandated breakin procedure for the average rider or the person that bought an FJR after not riding for the last 20 years...or ever before.

So...bottom line is that there is a lot more involved in the recommended breakin procedures than just what happens to the engine and they must be considered too.

From an engineering standpoint it is certainly good to load the engine for breakin and to cycle the engine from load to overrun repeatedly.

One thing that is not so obvious about ring "seating" is that the rings constantly move on the piston. So the idea of the ring surface "mating" to the cylinder wall is a little bit misunderstood. If you hold the engine at heavy load at 6000 RPM the piston rings are constantly rotating on the piston despite the idea that they stay fixed and mate to a specific part of the cylinder wall. There have been radioactive tracer tests run on rings and it is actually possible to measure the ring RPM on the piston! Unloading the rings with engine overrun or engine braking also tends to move the rings around and move them in the grooves which helps any mating to occur.

One of the most important ring 'breakin" items that is not even mentioned is the side of the rings mating to the sides of the ring lands. The face of the rings seal to the cylinder wall (with the help of the oil film) but the seal around the backside of the ring is maintained by contact of the SIDES of the ring to the SIDES of the ring land. On a broken in engine the sides of the rings show far more burnishing and the sides of the ring lands show extensive burnishing which generates the microseal necessary. In addition to sealing, the piston rejects heat thru the lower rings to the cylinder wall so the contact between the side of the ring and the side of the ring land is necessary for this. Similarily, the upper ring will reject heat to the piston to stay cool which also relys on the side contact.

One hazard on some engines during breakin if they are run too hard...i..e...too much heat poured into the rings and piston is that the side surface of the piston ring lands can overheat and microweld. This pulls smalls pits of material away from the aluminum of the piston and ruins the chances of good contact between the sides of the ring and the ring lands ever happening. This is a real possibility if the rings/piston ring lands are not perfectly compatible or there is inadequate prelube on the rings from assembly or the rings are simply not allowed enough time to burnish the ring lands before continuous load is applies.

I have looked at rings run during breakin and for thousands of miles and it is sometimes hard to detect the "wear" or "breakin" pattern from where the rings contact the cylinder wall. Basically, little or nothing happens on the face of the ring.

In addition to the rings moving around on the piston they also "expand" and "contract" to account for minute lack of roundness of the cylinder wall. So the rings are always moving in or out of the ring lands as well as rotating on the piston.

The surface of the cylinder wall always has some small surface asperities that are wiped off by the rings during the first few moments of operation. Beyond that, the idea of the factory "honing pattern" disappearing is an old wives tale. I have seen engines with cast iron bore that still had the OEM honing pattern clearly visible with little or no wear evident on the cylinder wall after 200,000 miles on the engine. The factory honing pattern is designed to hold oil on the cylinder wall (that is what seals the rings to the cylinder wall) so if it disappears the seal disappears. Even the Nikasil and aluminum bore (Reynolds 390 ne. Vega/Porsche/Mercedes/BMW Alusil) surfaces have a grain or pattern to them that holds oil much like the honing marks do so that can never dissappear. Hard to believe that the Motoman or any other aggressive breakin schedule can affect this in the long term. Might make the surface irregularities or "high spots" disappear sooner but not 'better"....

I have also seen engines broken in hard on dynos and gently and there has never been any difference in the ultimate power output of the engine. The harder the breakin the faster the power will stabilize but either method always seems to get the same results within engine repeatability. That is part of the problem with proving or disproving the Motoman procedure. You can only breakin the engine once so the only way to compare is with two separate engines and there is likely more difference in the engines no matter how careful you are building them than the breakin will ever net. The real advantage to engine builders and dyno development programs is that severe breakin schedules get the job done fast....so they get used a lot. Doesn't necessarily make them "better"...just faster!!

BTW....do the Motoman type breakin on an older, pushrod type engine in your muscle car with a cam-in-block design and a cam-driven oil pump (via the distributor gear) and you are very likely to take out the distributor gear. The distributor gear in those older engine designs was the weak link during breakin due to the high oil pump loads. The distributor gear load bearing capability increases dramatically within the first 20 or 30 miles of normal driving so too much RPM with a green cam and distributor gear would easily wipe them out. Caused many of the old wives tales about roller cams and bronze distributor gears, etc....LOL.

One could write a large book on engine breakin...which leads to all the old wives tales, motoman breakins and oil-like breakin threads.

 

[Captain Obvious]

I'm not saying that the manufacturers recommend method is wrong. All I'm saying is that there are altermatives that do not go against the manufactures recommended procedures, that are documented and proven. Motoman gives good valid reasons why his method works. It's each individuals choice to either examine his reasons and facts and make their own determination if will work for them.

All of the engine builders I have dealt with have similar methods to Motomans.

Manufacturers cover their butt legally. Their methods are simple dummied down proceedures that aren't going to get anyone in trouble and keep themselves out of legal hassles. Show me an owners manual that is written by an engineer. Do you really think that the majority of '06 owners are going to take their bikes into the dealer to have the bars handle bars adjusted? Not.

You know that TWN, you're no dummy :lol:

 

[twowheelnut]

CO, you still don't get what I'm saying, do you? Do what you want with your machine. Motoman's method doesn't fly in my book, it may in yours, but not in mine. It's a waste of time and effort. Too, I see no substantiated data in his writings to lead me to think otherwise. It's simply his opinion and opinion ain't fact.

Besides, the great and all knowing jestal has chimed in and I might add, he has succinctly and accurately put this one to bed.

Skooter should agree.

Oh, one more thing: Engineers feed the info for the owners manuals to the tech writers who put into understandable, everyday words. Then it goes to the lawyers for the final edit. :lol:

Ciao! :bye:

 

[BrunDog]

Alot of mental masturbation here, with the exception of jestal's usual enlightenment.

The bottom line is, it is good policy to load the rings via compression pressure. Overheating them, on the other hand, is bad. This is why I take exception to the MM method. Running a virgin engine at full load to redline will surely incur too much heat on the rings too quickly. Not only that, running the motor at it's torque peak will place too much load on the transmission and driveline. Motoman is bad bad bad.

The key is to BRIEFLY load the engine at intervals. Say, rev 2500 -> 4500 at full throttle is good. Then let it cool down a bit and go again. Do this a bunch of times with a brief but adequate cool down period is the right way to approach this.

Hell, do a google search and look at all the data. Just skip over the MM method which will likely come up first in the list.

-BD

 

[Rogue]

So SQUIDO,

Did this answer your questions?

Good info Jestal.

 

[panthercity]

This bike has a ceramic coating on the cylinder walls that just does not wear.

Reference, please.

 

[rublenoon]

See link for coating: wear is the whole basis of this thread --

Link

rublenoon

 

[panthercity]

Ceramic composite cylinder bores ensure greater heat dissipation, reduced frictional losses and extended cylinder wear life.

Ahhhhhhhh, that's where I was confused. It's not a coating as such.

 

[painman]

Not siding on either MM or the manual. The thing I see with the MM method is a faster breakin period which is similar to what racers use because there is not much time for a breakin period. Race engines are usually only 1 to 3 trips on the track. Using way closer tolerances than stock engines, the breakin proceedure must be done in a maner that forces breakin and hopfully no damage is done in the process. Stock engines are a whole other deal. Whatever trips your trigger. My $.02. PM. <>< :blink:

 

[jestal]

Race engines are usually only 1 to 3 trips on the track. Using way closer tolerances than stock engines,. <>< :blink:

I seriously doubt that you will ever find "closer tolerances" in a race engine comparted to a production engine. The level of accuracy achieved on production engines manufactured in a modern production process is far better, all-in-all, than any race shop will ever hope for. Seriously.

You might find some clearances set to different values on the race engine...i.e..piston clearance may be increased from stock recommendations... but the accuracy of the machining of the parts that governs the "closer tolerances" question is far more repeatable and stable than any race shop will achieve.

Race engine "blueprinting" does not achieve "closer tolerances". "Blueprinting" is a misnomer in this situation. What happens is that the race engine specifications are severaly biased toward one end or the other of the production specficiations so as to bias the engine toward max performance. Longevity of the engine and engine noise are compromised by the biased specs to achieve the extra perforance. It does not come about due to "closer tolerances"....LOL LOL

 

[painman]

I seriously doubt that you will ever find "closer tolerances" in a race engine comparted to a production engine. The level of accuracy achieved on production engines manufactured in a modern production process is far better, all-in-all, than any race shop will ever hope for. Seriously.

You might find some clearances set to different values on the race engine...i.e..piston clearance may be increased from stock recommendations... but the accuracy of the machining of the parts that governs the "closer tolerances" question is far more repeatable and stable than any race shop will achieve.

Race engine "blueprinting" does not achieve "closer tolerances". "Blueprinting" is a misnomer in this situation. What happens is that the race engine specifications are severaly biased toward one end or the other of the production specficiations so as to bias the engine toward max performance. Longevity of the engine and engine noise are compromised by the biased specs to achieve the extra perforance. It does not come about due to "closer tolerances"....LOL LOL

Dude, what's ya been smokin? It's got ya all google eyed. Seriously.

Depends what shop yur tokin about.....PM. <><

 

[Feejer/Weejer man]

otoman and Dyno breakin works with varying throttle in increments with heat cycles and cooling in between. If you are extending your first few rides with excessive heat and not cooling it doesn't matter which breakin method you use. All I know is the more owners that are around builing bikes and racing use the Motoman and if they have acess a Dyno. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

 

[twowheelnut]

Don't get me started again!

 

[panthercity]

When motoman offers a warranty that is the equal of Yamaha's I'll stick with the procedure in the owner's manual.

 

[worldbound4now]

As the category states... "Never-Ending Pointless Recurring Threads". I have an 05 with 12000mi. Changed my oil and filter at 48 miles. Kept it below 4,000 rpm for 1000mi. First 48 miles were at highly inconsistent speeds with agressive accelleration but watching the tach to not rev up too much. Another oil and filter change at 600mi. Stayed within MOM recommendations.

 

[FNG]

I installed the VistaCruise right at the dealership. Fired her up, pegged and locked the throttle, then went and did the paperwork. 17,000 feet, no problems.

 

[Rickster]

i KNOW everyone wants a different slant -- so here it is.....

Builders building race engines have specific objectives and understandings -- like -- gotta giddr done by Saturday, and I don't care if i have to build another engine on Sunday.... Typically racers break stuff, and then rebuild it. :clap:

Of course Yamaha has legal reviews -- like my Aprilia manual (US) won't tell you how to change your oil -- cause you might BURN yourself!! (of course the UK version has it).

I don't do engines - but have tested THOUSANDS of products using environmental stress screening (R&M 2000 ESS, and Enhanced ESS, HALT/HASS, etc) for manufacturing defect finding, and reliability estimations.

My $.02 -- Full temperature cycling on ALL the components (that is -- let it get up to full operating temperature, then shut it down until ALL the components are back to ambient) does more for reliability than any other process i have seen (personal experience -- lots of years)

My guess is it allows mechanical parts to wear better and CTE match (coeffecient of thermal expansion -- meaning different parts heat and expand at different rates.) and I mean ALL the parts -- tranny, engine, chain, brake floating rotor pins, wheel bearings, ALL of them -- do I have to list em all?? java script:emoticon(' :blink: ')

smilie

:bleh: i got my $.02 worth..

 

[Windjammer]

Ah, what the hell, I'll add my totally subjective comments to go with the rest (jestal excluded - thanks for shining some true light bro!)

First of all, as a volunteer cornerworker for over 10 years, I can tell you that I've literally spent DOZENS of hours sweeping up oily messes from race motors that broke. Trust the racers and their "mechanics" for advice? No way. They're a bunch of really fun guys to hang with, but I'll get my mechanical advice elsewhere, thanks. I've seen what they do in the pits, and it ain't pretty.

Oh, almost forgot! A "real" race engine and a stock streetbike motor like the FJR are apples and bananas. Different set of rules apply to both, since they are built differently for different purposes. Motoman your racebike? Sure, why not? It'll rarely see the south side of 7000 rpm anyway, and you have a trailer full of parts for a reason! And lots of cornerworkers to sweep up the oil - break 'er in hard!

In over 25 years of riding I don't know a single person who blew a stock bike motor on the street. Ever. Most street bikes get crashed or sold before they get worn out. Motoman your streetbike? Prolly wouldn't hurt, but can't see it helping either. Whatever.

I read Motoman and got googeley-eyed at first. Followed some of his advice, but not to the letter. Made moderately high RPM runs, changed oil at 50 miles and saw not one single bit of metal deposits ANYWHERE in the oil. I then figured I wasted an oil change, and resumed my previously scheduled programming. Enjoy the show.

 

[jestal]

Dude, what's ya been smokin? It's got ya all google eyed. Seriously.
Depends what shop yur tokin about.....PM. <><

My point is that most (if not all) "race engine" shops do not even have the capability to MEASURE things as accurately as the OEM's can machine them.

For instance...how many shops will temperature stabilize a piston for 24 hours before measuring to ensure accuracy..? If you are truely interested in accuracy and tight tolerances that is the sort of thing that is required as a piston will expand and contract more than the clearance you are trying to set if you are not carefull. Most places I've been (including some very well respected engine builders) they will just grab a mic and get'er done.

When the OEM's processes are in order things are VERY accurate and tolerances are held much tighter than any race shop can ever hope to achieve. They might not be the SAME tolerances that the race shop is striving for but they are very accurate.