Can the linked brakes be unlinked?

[Corkus]

I think ABS is great, but I don't like linked brakes on a sporty bike.

So, can the FJR Linked brakes be unlinked? Anyone do this yet? Is it theoretically practical or would it be so difficult nobody will bother?

(I used Search for "Linked Brakes", but could not find a definitive answer.)

Thanks.

 

[ionbeam]

You would have to be *really* motivated to unlink the '07 linked brakes. It would take significant time and effort to re-plumb the combined ABS/Link system. IMO, the effort would be way beyond any positive return.

I used Search for "Linked Brakes", but could not find a definitive answer.)

There is no one definitive answer. You can see an ABS/Linked brake discussion spiral out of control in this thread. Expect any discussion to follow this pattern or worse. The often abused Fred H. offeres this view of ABS/linked brakes.

 

[Corkus]

There is no one definitive answer. You can see an ABS/Linked brake discussion spiral out of control in this thread. Expect any discussion to follow this pattern or worse.

Wow, I'm hoping NOT to start that kind of thread!

My interest is in the mechanical practicality of de-linking the system, not in the goodness or lack thereof with the system. I know myself as a rider and I prefer unlinked brakes on ANY BIKE OF MINE. I repect others that disagree.

 

[RonBB]

I think ABS is great, but I don't like linked brakes

Exactly how I felt after riding my 05ABS FJR for over 20K. After a bike totaling get-off (unrelated to brakes) I ended up buying an 07 FJR after much questioning of if I really wanted the linked brakes. I was very concerned about being leaned over in a curve and needing to apply a bit of trail braking & being on a slick surface with the front sliding out from under me due to the front braking. Now I have 4,500 miles (not a lot) on the 07 & so far I haven't found my fears to be a factor. The 07 linked brakes seem to have a threshold amount of pressure required before much, if any brakes are applied to the front. I can't honestly say that I have yet found myself in the situation I was concerned about but now I do worry about it much less-The 07 version of the linked brakes is fairly transparent in normal riding. Sorry about the minor diversion from your topic but thought perhaps this would be helpful to the thought behind your thread topic. Best of luck. Ron

 

[TruWrecks]

There is a brake line that goes from the rear of the front-right caliper. You can disconnect and plug that line and the caliper. Your brakes are now de-linked. Of course now you have an unused brake piston on the front. You could get a custom line made that will allow you to plumb and use the now unused piston. The rear brake will be unaffected by this.

It can be done. Would I advise it? NO! The brakes work great as they are, especially if your bike is loaded with gear or riding two-up.

 

[Corkus]

There is a brake line that goes from the rear of the front-right caliper. You can disconnect and plug that line and the caliper. Your brakes are now de-linked. Of course now you have an unused brake piston on the front. You could get a custom line made that will allow you to plumb and use the now unused piston. The rear brake will be unaffected by this...

All I've read says the linked system works super well.

But as far as the question of the mechanical details, it sounds like reworking the hydraulic lines might fairly straightforwardly de-link the system and re-plumbing the unused front piston into the circuit for the rest of the front brakes might not be too hard either.

But it seems to me there are some questions here. You'd have a different system all right, but maybe not in a good way.

The ABS is computer controlled. So I expect some engineers carefully made the ABS work as well as possible with the linked hydraulics. Perhaps the reward for de-linking the system might not be perfectly suited to the ABS. When the ABS activated, it would do so with programming intended to manipulate a linked system that would be at least partially, no longer there. That sounds like it might open the door for something different than hoped for.

And using the braking system with different hydraulics, the unused piston now in a different circuit, that's obvioulsy different from designed too. Hydraulics have a sort of calibration, certain pressures of fluid are supposed to act on certain parts, etc. That might not work under all conditions as desired. That doesn't sound like a good thing to me.

In other words, reworking the system, even if practical in a mecahnical sense, might well change some important thing about how the bike is supposed to work. Oh well. Unless there's something I'm not understanding, like a second factory brake setup for a different market, or for Police bikes like BMW, I give up. I've gotten used to linked brakes before, I will again if I have to.

So I take it, all new FJR's are linked in all markets, Europe, N. America, Elsewhere? And the Police Version if there is one, is not different?

 

[Ignacio]

So I take it, all new FJR's are linked in all markets, Europe, N. America, Elsewhere? And the Police Version if there is one, is not different?

All Gen II FJR's are linked. That's 2006 and newer worldwide. Gen I are not.

 

[clutchless1]

Let me be the Devil's Advocate here, I have to ask this question. Has there ever been an instance where a linked brake system has caused an accident? I am under the impression the powers that be at Yamaha and all of their Lawyers would be up in arms if one of their Design Engineers came along and produced an entire system that would cause a rider injury or death. So I don't believe they would do something like this in the first place (on purpose anyway).

I would imagine there has to be a reason for them to design a linked brake system in the first place. I know as with anything else when a new system is introduced and this system requires the use of added parts all of this adds into the total cost of the motorcycle. I can't think of a reason Yamaha would introduce this linked brake technology if it doesn't help the avrage rider who may have gotten themself into a tight situation. Plus I have to think this linked brake system adds a decent amount of money to the bottom line while in fact they are competing with other manufacturers at the same time for sales of their product would intentionally add something to one of their bikes that increases the cost to the consumer without a very good reason.

I would think if someone on a bike goes into any corner carrying enough speed that they have to apply enough braking and that it has a good possibility of upsetting the bike and rider, I don't know if any brake system is going to get you out of that mess anyway. But saying this I would think between the combination of the ABS and linked brakes you may stand a little better chance of riding through the corner and not spanking the ASSfault with ones own ass.

I am no pro rider by any means, I have found through life when you hit the pavement hard it usually hurts like a bitch, and the older I get it takes that much longer to heal. So when I wanted to buy a new bike I wanted something that would give me a fighting chance if something unforseen happened, such as the ABS and linked brake features on the FJR. Because I read Yamaha's take on the ABS with the linked brakes and understand fairly well what they say about it, I'd like to know why the FJR might be better without the linked brakes.

 

[SockMonkey]

I think the bigger question here is if one were to modify the braking system of their bike as to radically alter its function from its intended design and were subsequently involved in an accident, would an insurance policy pay? I think such a modification falls outside of your more routine rotor, pad, caliper upgrades that insurance companies tend to ignore in such events and falls into a real grey area.

 

[S76]

I think ABS is great, but I don't like linked brakes

Exactly how I felt

I almost didn't buy this bike because I didn't want linked brakes. But now I wouldn't be without them, or the ABS which I didn't want.

 

[ELP_JC]

Of course now you have an unused brake piston on the front.

It's actually 2 pistons buddy; the lower 2 of the right caliper.

Corkus, I thought about exactly the same thing, and brought up an old thread about the subject.

I wouldn't even plug that line at all, as it's connected to an ABS solenoid too (there're THREE because of the linking), but I also wish they weren't linked. In my case, more than fearing a problem with the front wheel with the pedal, I HATE not having full front braking force with the lever. But like most, I got used to it.

Next to no linking at all, is BMW's partial integral system, where lever has FULL braking force (front and rear), but rear is only rear. The FJR is third in line. And Honda's system is the worst IMHO. And yes, I had many new Hondas with that stupid system, which was even more complex, as it was linked rear to front, like the FJR, but front to rear as well, with a 3rd master cylinder that was pushed by front suspension dive.

Sell that FZ1 and get a GenII bike buddy so we can ride northern NM. The FJR won't be nearly as quick or fast as your previous R1, but it should be pretty close to the FZ1. And yes, the FJR won't be as nimble as the FZ, but immensely more enjoyable on a long trip, which is what you want, according to our last chat many months ago. Take care.

JC

 

[Corkus]

Sell that FZ1 and get a GenII bike buddy so we can ride northern NM. The FJR won't be nearly as quick or fast as your previous R1, but it should be pretty close to the FZ1. And yes, the FJR won't be as nimble as the FZ, but immensely more enjoyable on a long trip, which is what you want, according to our last chat many months ago. Take care. JC

Shut up Juan or I'll have to buy an FJR this spring! OK, maybe I should. Maybe I will... Damn.

 

[alan sh]

I think some of the OP's assumptions are off. He says "Trail the brakes into a bend and the front might skid". 2 points:

1. The linked bit only comes on if you push the rear brake pedal HARD - so normal trailing will not get the front working.

2. Even if it does, the front won't skid - the ABS will stop that happening.

One other thing. In the UK, if you mess with the linking system, you may well invalidate your insurance. I bet the USA is even worse in that respect.

Just food for thought.

Alan

 

[Dan23]

All I've read says the linked system works super well.
But as far as the question of the mechanical details, it sounds like reworking the hydraulic lines might fairly straightforwardly de-link the system and re-plumbing the unused front piston into the circuit for the rest of the front brakes might not be too hard either.

But it seems to me there are some questions here. You'd have a different system all right, but maybe not in a good way.

The ABS is computer controlled. So I expect some engineers carefully made the ABS work as well as possible with the linked hydraulics. Perhaps the reward for de-linking the system might not be perfectly suited to the ABS. When the ABS activated, it would do so with programming intended to manipulate a linked system that would be at least partially, no longer there. That sounds like it might open the door for something different than hoped for.

And using the braking system with different hydraulics, the unused piston now in a different circuit, that's obvioulsy different from designed too. Hydraulics have a sort of calibration, certain pressures of fluid are supposed to act on certain parts, etc. That might not work under all conditions as desired. That doesn't sound like a good thing to me.

In other words, reworking the system, even if practical in a mecahnical sense, might well change some important thing about how the bike is supposed to work. Oh well. Unless there's something I'm not understanding, like a second factory brake setup for a different market, or for Police bikes like BMW, I give up. I've gotten used to linked brakes before, I will again if I have to.

I prefer unlinked brakes as well and I think you've outlined the problems/issues of attempting to unlink them after engineers have carefully designed the syatem and test riders have, well, tested them. For those reasons, mine will remain linked.

OTOH, a manufacturer who comes up with a better bike-- brakes and all-- has a good chance of selling me a replacement bike. Meanwhile, the miles roll up on the FJR.

 

[user 10407]

Hi,

I agree that the linked brakes of Yamaha-san aren't a good idea. This prevent me to buy a new FJR. This is the only language that a CEO understand.

Using a stand alone rear brake is safe and essential in different scenarios. Especially when riding a bike with shaft drive. It stabilise the bike when in slow motion or on slippery underground (e.g. sand), it minimize the play of the shaft drive and guarantee a smoth control in corners.

And I love my '04/'05 ABS. :yahoo: With experience it is brakeable nearly just like a non-ABS and possible to liftoff the rear wheel. But there is the little benefit for my secure when braking too hard on slippery surfaces or bad tires.

I've dicussed the linked braking system of Yamaha-san and to delink it with my dealer, my FJR friends and the general importer in Neuss/Germany. It is mechanical possible maybe, but not in a secure way. Unregarded the state laws and the risk to get 'criminal' and loss the insurance.

- The pistons of the link system in the right front caliper have a different diameter to the other front pistons.

- The ABS system is programmed for the linked system.

- Nobody knows what happens in special cases.

I have to advise strictly against delinking the brakes by yourself.

As well as I prefer stand alone brakes and full personal control to them.

BTW:

[SIZE=8pt]The most usable system of linked brakes is provided by BMW where the front brake links to the rear but the rear brake stand alone. But it isn't the gold standard too. First I wonder how weak the rear brake feel when kicking it. But I've adopt it after a few miles. The second, much more problematic feature is, that they have a build in rollover prevention. It's not a feature - it's a bug. It is made for unexperienced riders to prevent them to overbreak the front wheel. If the ABS sense a stillstandin rear wheel it opens the front brakes. But in which cases does it start it's work? First the stoppie. Okay, it isn't really needed. But while hard cornering it cames up time to time. The second situation is braking on uneven surfaces. When the rear becomes light while braking and the rearwheel begin to bounce, it stops in order of the linked brake system. Would anybody find it funny when braking from 100mph to a 180 degree corner down the passroad and the brakes say NO! ??? The second scenario is a rescuebraking. I know two real scenarios like these with the frontman on a R1200GS.[/SIZE]

Modern bikes (special brake systems) are made for the sissy. h34r: No, not my real opinion only to be a bit sassy. :glare:

More and more late-joiner and re-joiner with thick chequebooks saddle up bikes of the 150hp class. The advertisement say them: no problem, easy to drive like your car. Oh yeah, I've 30 years without any accident ... I'm a good driver. But the physical of riding ... nearely no experience. Better to join a perfection exercise as to believe in technical features. IMHO What follows next? Elektronic slick control, elecronic wheelie control, hydraulic mainstand, electronic stabilize program ... and the driver will only be a passenger.

:angry:

 

[Inlaw1]

I think some of the OP's assumptions are off. He says "Trail the brakes into a bend and the front might skid". 2 points:1. The linked bit only comes on if you push the rear brake pedal HARD - so normal trailing will not get the front working.

I don't think that's right, the front brake seems to apply pressure immediately when applying the rear brake in my tests. As to how much pressure front Vs rear I can't say for certain. I'm fairly confident in saying it's pretty equal.

2. Even if it does, the front won't skid - the ABS will stop that happening.

Please don't think ABS is going to always be your Saviour, you can push past the point of available traction (dependent on road surface / camber, speed and tire condition) without getting to the lock up point of your front wheel when the bike is leaned over.

Personally I've got no problem with the linked system on the Yamaha and have had no problems with it's operation. In fact, it seems to give good feedback when doing a parking lot turn around and using the rear brake pedal to steady, or when trail braking into corners.

 

[mcatrophy]

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person happy with my linked, ABS, brakes.

OK, I'm not a peg-scraping wannabe road racer, but I have ridden my FJR enthusiastically from time to time.

I can honestly say I have never had any misgivings about either the linking or the ABS while riding, that includes several unexpected heavy braking episodes under various road surface conditions.

With my electric clutch, I often use the rear brake for slow "parking lot" manoeuvres, on slippery or gravelly surfaces. I've had problems with smooth take-up of the clutch, but never with the front skidding because I've got the rear brake on a bit. Compared with my previous non-linked mount (not an FJR, but all I can compare with), the bike feels much more stable ("planted" is perhaps my best description).

Yes, we all know that under controlled conditions an expert rider can do better with a non-ABS/non-linked bike over an ABS/linked bike. Personally, I don't consider myself an "expert" rider, and when I'm braking 10/10ths, it's not under "controlled conditions".

So, has anyone really had an issue with their brakes under real-world conditions, not "what ifs", where they can honestly say the linking or the ABS has actually caused a problem?

 

[Powerman]

Linked brakes on the FJR pissed me off after bad experiences on other bikes.

(Wasn't too happy about the ABS either because of the weight and complexity)

I also was thinking about re-engineering the brakes, but I forgot about it soon after

because I got used to it. Not bad like the others, just forgot all about it.

Go with the flow, ride and enjoy.

 

[user 10407]

...So, has anyone really had an issue with their brakes under real-world conditions, not "what ifs", where they can honestly say the linking or the ABS has actually caused a problem?

I hope (and pray for it) that you never get an positive answer for this question.

I'm sure a (so called) expert rider can ride this bike right well safe as a standard bike. But not in his way. He adopt to the way the bike allow him and discipline himself to fit to the bike. But that isn't the real choice.

Some guys need a lawyer to recognize that the coffee is hot and that hot liquids can cause a injury. They want all SAFE and CLEAN and GREEN. Other guys only want fun. They want do it their own way. No risc - no fun. That meant not that they live unsafe, but they can calculate the risc by themself. They live for that what they love and do nothing to be cool.

So go on and select how to make fun to YOU ...