Dealers

[artistic rider]

Just sitting here reading the forum and started wondering something. Yeah I know thats a dangerous thing for me but here goes. Why do we purchase these bikes, which aren't cheap by the way, and accept the poor service from these dealers? Here it seems alot of the more experienced riders agrees that you should fix it yourself. I like that and would agree with it somewhat. But what of those that aren't mechanically inclined or possess the tools and equipment to repair or maintain thier bikes. All farkled up a feejer can cost quite a bit of change. You can buy a car for that. If a car dealer had techs that couldn't fix your car or kept it for repairs for a month they would be out of business in a minute. I've been that route also but at least they tried to make it right. I even had Chevy call me to get it right. Yamaha has never even sent me a "thanks for purchasing" card. Its not Yamaha fault. At least not for the most part I feel, but these dealers represent them. The dealer where I bought my bike sells kaws, Hondas, and Suzukis also. My co worker that bought a ZX-14 and refuses to go back there. Why is such poor service tolerated? They sell theses bikes and after that you are on your own. Besides posting here what else can you do? With dealers being few and far between you don't have alot of choices where to take it. Just something I wanted to throw out there and get some feedback from. I need to find a new dealer myself!

 

[rushes]

Talking to my dealer the other day, he was telling me how it was getting harder to find good mechanics. All the best ones are retiring. And he's not seeing very many new guys getting into the field.

I think part of it is the young guys growing up these days just don't have to work on stuff like we used to.

I think if I were a guy would couldn't fix my own bike, I'd find a friend who does and bribe him with beer....

:thumbsup:

 

[Murph]

An excellent question and I'll be sure to follow the responses in this thread.

I think a big problem is that we (as purchasers and consumers) don't "vote with our feet." We tend to complain but most of us just tolerate poor service, don't actually complain to the business' decision-makers, and we don't follow-through by taking our business elsewhere. Maybe we don't want to be inconvenienced by taking the time to have the discussions or maybe we don't want to go out of our way. Regardless, if enough people took their business elsewhere, a dealer would have no choice but to address their problems or go out of business.

 

[Zute]

An excellent question and I'll be sure to follow the responses in this thread.
I think a big problem is that we (as purchasers and consumers) don't "vote with our feet." We tend to complain but most of us just tolerate poor service, don't actually complain to the business' decision-makers, and we don't follow-through by taking our business elsewhere. Maybe we don't want to be inconvenienced by taking the time to have the discussions or maybe we don't want to go out of our way. Regardless, if enough people took their business elsewhere, a dealer would have no choice but to address their problems or go out of business.

That isn't entirely true. I recently had a bad experience at a dealer (they basically kept my bike for 2 weeks, damaged the front end, replaced a part that didnt fix the problem and gave me the bike back with an empty gas tank). I not only stopped doing business there, but also sent an email and mailed a letter to the owner/manager of the shop and explained the situation. Of course, they said that none of it was their fault - which reinforced the fact that I will not go there again, and will recommend others to avoid them as well. I thought about standing out front on a Saturday with a sign that says: "this dealer is crap" but I dont have that much time on my hands.

The bottom line is - these forums work. It's a way to communicate good and bad service. Those businesses that dont provide good service will not be around long (unless they are the only game in town) - and even then, dont go there. I dont fill up at gas stations that gouge prices (we have a shell that regularly charges 15 cents over the average because they "can") and I dont put my business in a company that doesnt deserve it - this goes for restaurants as well.

 

[Geezer]

I doubt a dealer makes any profit on service. If they can sell bikes they are happy. The service department is there primarily to support the sales department.

 

[Murph]

An excellent question and I'll be sure to follow the responses in this thread.
I think a big problem is that we (as purchasers and consumers) don't "vote with our feet." We tend to complain but most of us just tolerate poor service, don't actually complain to the business' decision-makers, and we don't follow-through by taking our business elsewhere. Maybe we don't want to be inconvenienced by taking the time to have the discussions or maybe we don't want to go out of our way. Regardless, if enough people took their business elsewhere, a dealer would have no choice but to address their problems or go out of business.

That isn't entirely true. I recently had a bad experience at a dealer (they basically kept my bike for 2 weeks, damaged the front end, replaced a part that didnt fix the problem and gave me the bike back with an empty gas tank). I not only stopped doing business there, but also sent an email and mailed a letter to the owner/manager of the shop and explained the situation. Of course, they said that none of it was their fault - which reinforced the fact that I will not go there again, and will recommend others to avoid them as well. I thought about standing out front on a Saturday with a sign that says: "this dealer is crap" but I dont have that much time on my hands.

The bottom line is - these forums work. It's a way to communicate good and bad service. Those businesses that dont provide good service will not be around long (unless they are the only game in town) - and even then, dont go there. I dont fill up at gas stations that gouge prices (we have a shell that regularly charges 15 cents over the average because they "can") and I dont put my business in a company that doesnt deserve it - this goes for restaurants as well.

Zute, sorry about your experience, but it seems that we are in agreement. I only said that I don't think enough people speak up.

 

[wheatonFJR]

That's why this board is so great. I'm very low on the mechanical totem pole...however, slowly but surely I am tackling maintenance with the help of FJR locals who have gone out of there way to help me.

Now the valve check may be another thing altogether. I'll let the dealer handle that one unfortunately.

 

[eeksnake]

Damn good question to which I don't have a good answer.

I've always thought it was because most folks purchase a motorcycle for recreation, not as a primary means of transportation. In my experience though, that reasoning doesn't fly. I've told the service writer and technician that this is my ride to and from work... To date, it hasn't made any difference in how fast they effect the repairs.

I do believe it's dealer related (as opposed to manufacturer) because I hear great things about certain dealerships... D&H, Yamaha of Rancho Cucamunga, Sierra BMW, Roseville Yamaha, etc. (Not meaning to leave any good ones out.) My only explanation for what makes these "good" dealers? Customer service would be my first guess. They take care of the customer. Sometimes, it's as simple as an explanation (a no BS explanation goes a long way with me.) Most times, it's just fair treatment. They deliver when they say they'll deliver or keep me informed if they can't.

I think that first and foremost, the management and if necessary, corporate representatives need to be made aware of my dissatisfaction. If the issue hasn't been resolved after that, then the appropriate thing to do is take my business else where.

 

[rnees]

I doubt a dealer makes any profit on service. If they can sell bikes they are happy. The service department is there primarily to support the sales department.

au contraire...

It's the other way around. Parts/service is often the ONLY way a dealer makes any money. And used sales.

Think about it...it's too easy to find out what the dealer invoice is on new, and the profit margin is not that great (unless it's a high demand bike that you can sell for sticker), so you have to sell a lot of bikes to make any money.

On the other hand, the consumer rarely knows what the dealer paid for a used vehicle.

Parts markup is pretty nifty.

Apparel markup is amazing. --and people don't normally negotiate.

And while many dealers (around here, anyway) charge $40-60 an hour, the mechanics get paid about $20. And the turnover in bikes is much quicker, more volume. Plus, the time thing is squishy. Book time is one thing, the time it actually takes to complete is another.

Which brings us to the mechanics--if they get paid book time, it is in their interest to get the job done quickly, so they can book the maximum number of hours per day. So things can get sloppy. And at $20/hour, they can do better doing the car thing, where the pay is much higher.

That--and how many MC mechanics schools are there? Went looking for one a number of years ago, and there were not many, and they weren't cheap. Auto schools are everywhere. And the apprentice thing seems to be dying...nobody wants to do that anymore (no $). And nobody wants to get dirty anymore.

...Just my $.02 worth. OK, maybe more. Sorry this is so long.

 

[cougar8000]

I doubt a dealer makes any profit on service. If they can sell bikes they are happy. The service department is there primarily to support the sales department.

You got to be kidding me? that is their bread and butter. That is how car dealers are operating. At 65+ dollars in hour you do not think they are making money???

Problem is there are way too many people that do not care. they go for a convenience. They are not planning to keep their bikes long enough to suffer.

I have been talking about what used to be Banzai in Libertyville to people for years and those same people still go there even after getting screwed. They go there to change tires. Their take is everyone charges 30 and they are right next door. I know they wont screw up my tires.

I still drive/ride at a minimum 30 minutes to get other dealer even for an oil change washer. But I will not go there again.

Look at Chicago Cycle. They **** with everyone and people still go there.

I have known a one guy who had a body shop and did a really ****** up job. His take on it was that there are few million people in the vicinity of his shop. If even half of them stop by once he would be a happy camper. Considering that his business is booming, I would say he got it right.

Alternative is to do your own and buy out of state like I did. Victor, if you ever need a hand just buzz. I do have a few tools and a lift that will accommodate even URAL  Time is my only problem. Two little kids will do that. As long as we can work out the timing my garage is open.

 

[artistic rider]

I doubt a dealer makes any profit on service. If they can sell bikes they are happy. The service department is there primarily to support the sales department.

I disagree Geezer. My shop fee is $77 an hour. Also when dealing with my fork issue they told me they would sell at cost. They quoted me $380.00 but would sell them to me for $220.00. Thats one hell of a mark-up. Not going to tell you what tire mounting goes for. And when I did call he tells me they just took in 40 plus bikes the previous week so could I wait a couple of days to bring it in. They are making money for sure.

 

[Geezer]

OK, maybe you guys are right. I figure the cost of providing shop space and equipment more than offsets the margin between salary and hourly rate, but I don't have any hard figures to back it up. If dealers really do rely on service to make a profit then they could pay for good mechanics and start getting some repeat business. I don't see that happening in my part of the country.

Regarding the markup on gear, sure, I can see how that is a high profit space. My local UJM seems to have recently figured that out because they started carrying a larger selection of gear and a much bigger selection of helmets. Based on the success Harley has with merchandise other then motorcycles I am surprised it took the other brands so long. Still, most of the gear and accessories in the store are cruiser oriented.

 

[rnees]

OK, maybe you guys are right. I figure the cost of providing shop space and equipment more than offsets the margin between salary and hourly rate, but I don't have any hard figures to back it up. If dealers really do rely on service to make a profit then they could pay for good mechanics and start getting some repeat business. I don't see that happening in my part of the country.
Regarding the markup on gear, sure, I can see how that is a high profit space. My local UJM seems to have recently figured that out because they started carrying a larger selection of gear and a much bigger selection of helmets. Based on the success Harley has with merchandise other then motorcycles I am surprised it took the other brands so long. Still, most of the gear and accessories in the store are cruiser oriented.

The shops I know (both MC and auto) would kill for a good mechanic. They are very hard to find. And those that are out there are hopelessly overworked, or working for speed shops. There don't seem to be any generalists anymore, only specialists.

 

[FJRBluesman]

I doubt a dealer makes any profit on service. If they can sell bikes they are happy. The service department is there primarily to support the sales department.

You got to be kidding me? that is their bread and butter. That is how car dealers are operating. At 65+ dollars in hour you do not think they are making money???

Gunny!

The dealers make a killing on repairs. Between over priced parts at a profit margin of 30%-50% depending upon the part, and hourly rates equaling a lawyers pay....

Most local bike dealers here in SoCal charge minimum $90/hour. I know some auto dealers charge as much as $120/hour. Now I know their mechanics are not making $60/hour, more like around $20-$30, maybe a little more. Also lets not forget the fact of that little repair manual they use to estimate repairs. If the book says 3 hours, they charge three hours even if it only took the mechanic half the time.

I had a repair manager at my local dealership try to charge me twice for pulling the front wheel. I asked them to replace the fork seals while they had the front wheel off for a new tire. I stopped that one quick, they tried to justify it, but I won out. Not like it was a huge victory, their prices were too high anyway. One of the reasons I sold my last bike was that they were the only dealer in town, and the prices were too high, and I did a great deal of the other pricey repairs myself.

Back on task - I would agree it's getting hard to find a good mechanic. Many old timers are retiring, and the young ones, many don't have a clue. They lack the good ole common sense and repair experience from doing it at a young age. They go to a mechanic school and think that's it.

I know a kid who has the right heart to want to repair, but his mechanical logic is dismal at best. I wouldn't even let him wash my bike.

OK my rant is over.

 

[JimLor]

Zute - as another VA guy, what dealer are you talking about?

I commented in another post that the "norm" these days is salesmen and women who don't know what they are selling from their (insert appropriate gender specific crude genitalia reference). On this site I think the negative comments about dealers significantly outweigh the positive. Seems to me that finding a salesman or woman who actually knows something about what they're selling is more than a little difficult whether it be cars, bikes, vacuum cleaners, or *insert whatever you want here.*

I know that providing a clean, well-organized shop is hard enought; but then staffing it with knowledgeable and personable sales people and mechanics just seems to be a step too far. I've been to 6 shops in my area. For 5 of them I wouldn't let their clown like mechanics do as much as clean my windscreen. The 6th seemed to be run by adults who had more than a passing knowledge of bikes and seemed interested in doing a good job.

I may be naive, but I think a well run shop with competent mechs would draw people in and would benefit both sales and maintenance income for the owner. Clearly most believe that people will come to them regardless of their competence - and we prove they're right every single day. As to Yamaha, they certainly have more than a passing interest in this and they should hold folks who sell and maintain their products accountable. Clearly they don't and likewise think doing so would not increase their "bottom line." And don't be mistaken by my comments, Yamaha is in business to make money, I just think they'd make more if they grabbed their dealers by the stacking swivel and explained what they expected and then made sure that's what they got - those that don't perform, don't let 'em sell Yamahas - remember, lousy dealers give Yamaha a crappy reputation.

 

[Zute]

Zute - as another VA guy, what dealer are you talking about?

The repair center that I will never visit again (or recommend) is Champion Motorsports in Sterling/Herndon whatever the hell it is considered there on Douglass Ct off 606. It was previously Rhodes Cycles until the monopoly we like to call Loudoun Motorsports bought them out. Unfortunately, Loudoun MS is the only game in town now, so our options are quite limited, of course unless you can get out to Winchester - I heard there was a good mechanic somewhere out there.

 

[Crash Cash]

You can buy a car for that. If a car dealer had techs that couldn't fix your car or kept it for repairs for a month they would be out of business in a minute. I've been that route also but at least they tried to make it right.

Nope, for instance I had a Chevy dealer that couldn't fix the ABS on my Camaro. It was like talking to the local Special Ed class. Then it finally locked the brakes and put me backwards into a guard rail and I was rid of that albatross. The local Honda car dealer isn't any better, as my roommate's Accord had a "no start when hot" problem and his shop monkeys just kept replacing $240+ control modules for the engine, ignition, transmission, etc. I finally got him to take it to Firestone and their electrical guy discovered it was a $30 relay that was bad, that powered all the control modules. The relay coil was failing open when hot.

But my roommate is too stupid and just keeps going back to the same damn Honda dealer and keeps paying him beaucoup bucks for **** work. He paid (or rather his dad paid) over $1500 for unnecessary parts. So now I hope one month he doesn't pay his rent so I can kick his *** out.

I have motorcycles originally because I couldn't get anyone to fix my cars, and I didn't have the room/tools/expertise to maintain them myself. I can maintain two bikes in the same one car garage that my Camaro could barely fit in, and I don't need a lift just to change my oil, plus parts are available online from ronayers.com instead of just the dealership at 200% profit margin.

And yes, the dealership that sold me my FJR has sent me several "thank you" and "are you happy?" cards, as did as the dealership that sold me my SV-650. Unfortunately the FJR dealership is in Tennessee and the Suzuki dealership just got sold to a moron that fired all the good people. Note that I bought a FJR in Tennessee instead of Florida because the Tennessee dealership let me test drive one. Every time I bring my FJR to the local dealer (for maybe an oil filter or tire mount) he realizes how much he lost by laughing at me when I asked for a test ride. And I make sure he remembers it too.

 

[Crash Cash]

I have known a one guy who had a body shop and did a really ****** up job. His take on it was that there are few million people in the vicinity of his shop. If even half of them stop by once he would be a happy camper. Considering that his business is booming, I would say he got it right.

Yup, as far as I can see, there's very little repeat business in the bike dealerships, except for people that are "locked in" and stupid enough to think that only the dealership can change their oil, so there's little incentive to "treat the customer right or they'll go elsewhere"

Plus when we had the Naval Training Center here in Orlando, we had recruits coming off the boats all the time to buy sportbikes and wad 'em up. Business was booming. Now they're gone and the dealers can't wrap their heads around the concept of "customer service" so they're blaming it on the economy. We've had 3 dealerships go out of business already in the past 2 years.

 

[JimLor]

Zute - your answer surprised me! Another forum member had an accident and took it to Coleman's and was dicked around by them. He took it to Champion and said the service guy, retired Marine, was good to go! I was actually thinking of taking ol' Matilda to them if necessary. Damn!