Differences between Gen 2 and Gen 1 & 2.5 Clutch Assemblies

[JamesK]

In the 2006 Service Manual the pressure plate stroke is specified for the AE model. The required minimum stroke for satisfactory clutch operation is listed as 2.8 mm or greater.
I'm assuming the clutch and its components are the same for the A and AE models. They have different slave cylinders but I believe the piston diameter is the same for both, no differences are mentioned. However, the hose connection is different.

I calculated the required master cylinder piston strokes for a 2.9 mm pressure plate stroke.

I wonder what the 2009 Service Manual states the minimum stroke for satisfactory clutch operation.

Maybe the 2009 somehow requires a slightly shorter stroke then the 2006->2008 model years? Going back to those part differences between the 2007 and 2009 comparisons, maybe those parts are responsible?

I can't see how it could be anything else, just still confused a bit as to which parts to buy/replace.

Obviously I could order the "different" parts we've identified on the 2009 clutch assembly, but the concern is that some are either non-existent in the 2006-2008 clutch and or will the rest of the clutch assembly "play nice" with the new/added parts?

 

[richsp51]

In the 2006 Service Manual the pressure plate stroke is specified for the AE model. The required minimum stroke for satisfactory clutch operation is listed as 2.8 mm or greater.
I'm assuming the clutch and its components are the same for the A and AE models. They have different slave cylinders but I believe the piston diameter is the same for both, no differences are mentioned. However, the hose connection is different.

I calculated the required master cylinder piston strokes for a 2.9 mm pressure plate stroke.

I wonder what the 2009 Service Manual states the minimum stroke for satisfactory clutch operation.

Maybe the 2009 somehow requires a slightly shorter stroke then the 2006->2008 model years? Going back to those part differences between the 2007 and 2009 comparisons, maybe those parts are responsible?

I can't see how it could be anything else, just still confused a bit as to which parts to buy/replace.

Obviously I could order the "different" we've identified on the 2009 clutch assembly, but the concern is that some are either non-existent in the 2006-2008 clutch and or will the rest of the clutch assembly "play nice" with the new/added parts?

As RaYzerman19 pointed out earlier in this post, part #8 RIng, Clutch Boss(p/n 2H7-16385-00-00) that secures parts 4,5,6 and 7 fits into a groove that's in part #3, the Clutch Boss. The question is whether there is anything else different about the Clutch Boss and if it would really be necessary to change it out. I suspect that the 2006->2008 Clutch Boss doesn't have the groove necessary for the Ring. (part #8). Maybe someone that's had a early GENII clutch apart for a soak could confirm that.

The complete list of part differences between 2007 and 2009 is what's in post #24. I suspect the Bolt, item #15 in the 2009 diagram is a different length then the 2007 and that items #4 (PLATE, SEAT) and #5 (SPRING, CLUTCH BOSS) are different thickness between 2007 and 2009.

Ordering those parts should do it, What could possible go wrong?

Bye the way, in a posting about clutch soak from a while ago, I read the following:

Ref:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/126839-a-detailed-pictorial-clutch-soak-how-to/page-2

azitlies Posted 02 August 2011 - 02:17 PM"The results for me are a little surprising. First, it really seems as though the clutch is now starting to get into the friction zone farther out then before. Which is great! I always thought it was way too close to the grip before. It seems to be almost half way out now!

And also, there's much more of a "friction zone" then there was before. I mean, it wasn't like there was none, but it was a very little bit. It was usable, but it's not like it is now. Now there's quite a bit more travel in this important area. I'd say it's like a 1/2 or 3/4 of an inch now, where before it seemed to be about a 1/4 of an inch. I've not really made any measurements here, kind of seat of the pants measurements. But I can certainly feel a difference!"

 

[RaYzerman19]

I had a 2010 clutch apart a few weeks ago. The wire ring it seemed just was to hold a few parts together while you got the rest of the clutch plates reassembled. I thought maybe spring 5 and disc 6, but they will stay in place without it. Maybe it prevents that whole thing from travelling too far when the clutch is disengaged? Dunno.

As far as a different 'friction zone' after a soak, I can kinda see that would be the perception, as all the plates would be coated with oil and moving more smoothly (i.e., none sticking). Just don't know how long that would last. The 2010 had quite a few miles on it, and the middle plates were pretty dry.... almost like the two thicker end plates (6 and 17) were doing all the work if the 7 middle plates were dry/sticky. Didn't find any gucky contaminant, so not sure what a couple of other comments were about, may have been the oil they were using? I can't see Yammy coating them with anything, no reason to. One thing that is apparent, these clutches don't seem to get much of an oil bath, and an initial soak would seem to be a good thing to do.

I don't know about dimensional differences in the parts, but consider that the clutch slave merely butts up to whatever rod length is there, and then strokes whatever it strokes. That tells you where to put your lever to get full disengagement. Really doesn't matter what the effective rod length is, does it? Dimensional differences might affect the 'width' of the 'friction zone' maybe.

 

[richsp51]

I changed out and as other have said the engagement point is sooner on stock levers, I changed to Pazzo's with more adjustment and was able to adjust in the right engagement point.

I read an article on webBikeWorld ( ref: https://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/pazzo/adjustable-levers.htm ) regarding the Pazzo levers that stated the following:

"The Pazzo levers also have a set screw to adjust the clutch engagement, but it is not sealed, and it is very useful to change the start point of the clutch friction zone, although it was set perfectly for my tastes when the levers arrived."

But this was referring to a lever set for a Ducati Multistrada 620 and the article was written OCt, 2007.

Is this the case with current FJR1300 levers as well? If so, is this at all useful when paired with the GENI slave cylinder swap for a GENII as far as tweaking the start point of the clutch engage/disengage position?

 

[JamesK]

I changed out and as other have said the engagement point is sooner on stock levers, I changed to Pazzo's with more adjustment and was able to adjust in the right engagement point.

I read an article on webBikeWorld ( ref: https://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/pazzo/adjustable-levers.htm ) regarding the Pazzo levers that stated the following:"The Pazzo levers also have a set screw to adjust the clutch engagement, but it is not sealed, and it is very useful to change the start point of the clutch friction zone, although it was set perfectly for my tastes when the levers arrived."

But this was referring to a lever set for a Ducati Multistrada 620 and the article was written OCt, 2007.

Is this the case with current FJR1300 levers as well? If so, is this at all useful when paired with the GENI slave cylinder swap for a GENII as far as tweaking the start point of the clutch engage/disengage position?

richsp51, thanks for the info, I never noticed any other adjustment options on my Pazzo levers other than the little adjuster lever, but didn't know to look for anything else either, will certainly check.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I don't see any external adjuster screw on mine.......... but the Pazzo's have 6 positions, one should be able to get the engagement/disengagement point set just before it hits the handlebar. The full friction zone is further out than that, and as I mentioned before, the difference in Gen I vs. Gen II slaves is, the difference between engagement/disengagement point and the full friction zone will be larger with the Gen I slave. As will be the final 'at rest' position of the lever (meaning you have to reach further for the lever).

 

[richsp51]

I don't see any external adjuster screw on mine..........

Thanks for that Ray!

 

[RossKean]

I read most of this thread and some others and I'm not sure what, if any, conclusion was reached. With a larger slave cylinder volume, I would expect a lighter pull in terms of absolute force but a longer throw from engaged to fully disengaged. What isn't clear to me is whether I would need other bits or modifications to keep the :fully disengaged" position some modest distance out from the grip. (I have the Pazzo levers) My hands are large and fingers are long so absolute reach is not likely to be a problem.

My issue is that I had surgery on some tendons on my left hand in early March and it is a long and slow recovery period. The problem is specifically with my two middle fingers; Strength is marginal and while they can be mostly straightened, I can't close them all the way. I can operate the stock clutch but pulling the lever in all the way is a problem, especially if I have to hold it - extended periods in stop-and-go traffic are very difficult. I hate to spend an unnecessary $100 or so on parts but will go that way if there is a reasonable chance of success. (Price from on-line retailers has gone up)

I doubt if anyone has done a quantitative measure of the lb. of force needed to pull the modified clutch but what is the general concensus?

 

[Fred W]

Ross,

Try PM'ing JamesK. He may have more first hand knowledge of what happens with the various generational parts than anyone else.

PS - Sorry to hear of your required hand/wrist surgery. Hope that things are healing up well. Hope to see you around somewhere soon. Worst case, you could always get an AE. I hear they are pretty cheap on the second hand market.

PS - In case anyone is wondering, Yes I am an unconscionable smart ***, and no topic is beyond making light of IMO. Even if Ross and I are good friends.

 

[richsp51]

Ross, I have a 2007 and as you see, back in December I was active in this thread because I too was seeking an easier clutch pull. I was concerned about the same issues as you.

I have since replaced my clutch slave cylinder with a 2005 (GEN I) slave cylinder and at the same time installed genuine Pazzo levers and I am very happy with the results. I have my clutch lever set to position 4 and the engagement is just fine for me, albeit a bit close to the grip...but not so much more then before. I have not experienced any clutch slipping and clutch pull is noticeably less, however, I cannot give you a quantitative answer as to how much less.

Since you already have the Pazzos, it doesn't take much effort or cost to get a replacement GEN I slave cylinder to try out for yourself. I got mine on eBay for about $25 shipped. It's a simple swap out.

Best regards and good luck.

 

[RossKean]

Rich

I'm going to give it another week or two to see how things progress. Until the surgery, I never had any issue with the clutch and I'm hoping that this recovers well enough that my current need isn't a long-term requirement. If I could find a cheap slave assembly, I might just go ahead with it. With shipping to Canada, an eBay unit (if I could find one) might not be that economical - would probably buy new. I am encouraged by the success you had with the slave cylinder swap.

Thanks

 

[RossKean]

Fred

An AE ??

The hand is lame, not crippled! In all seriousness, I considered trying to score a lightly used AE for low dollars. Nothing available locally and the weather hasn't exactly been conducive for a fly and ride. Besides, my '07 A with 106,000 miles is just nicely getting broken in!

The surgery just involved the palm, two fingers and the thumb (no wrist). Condition was/is "Dupuytren's contracture". Surgery is pretty messy with a lot of slicing and dicing. It has improved a lot in the seven weeks since the surgery but still has a long way to go.

Rich posted a positive review of the cylinder swap. I may solicit other opinions if I decide to give it a try. In the meantime, I'll try to spend less time in city traffic and clutch-intensive twisties. Slab riding and flower-sniffing pace on the back roads for the next little while. In addition to reduced strength/mobility and moderate pain when I overdo it, it is difficult to apply force quickly and smoothly.