DNR

[Anthony]

Given the new economic state of things, and my equally low paying, no benefit job, I have been thinking about how I can best cover my *** in an accident. Since I will not ever be able to afford any sort of accident related medical bills, I was wondering about the legality of a contract to carry on person that says something along the lines of "Does not have insurance, I can not, nor will not pay for medical treatment". This plus a DNR order should cover my bases.

Has anyone heard of such a thing?

 

[user 213]

Some of what you want can be done with a 'Living Will'. The hard part will be ensuring that your desire is followed. You won't be in the position to demand it if you're badly injured, and the EMS, doctors, etc will promptly ignore anything found on you in order to perform life saving procedures.

I have heard of a terminally ill person getting a DNR tattoo on their chest. Most tattoo places won't do that, w/o some proof of reason, or so I've heard. <_<

Typically in an emergency, anything you have on your person is going to be secondary to the attempts to save you. IOW, they won't go looking for stuff in your pockets if you're bleeding out, they will go into first responder mode and try and save you first.

 

[FJR Flyer]

I have heard of a terminally ill person getting a DNR tattoo on their chest. Most tattoo places won't do that, w/o some proof of reason, or so I've heard. <_<

So you're saying tattoo parlors now have some kind of morals? :huh: With all the crap I've seen tattoo'd on people and all the places they put tattoos, they'd have a problem with this? Amazing....

 

[Anthony]

From what I've read, it has to be more explicit than a simple "DNR", since DNR could stand for anything.

 

[FJRFrank]

From what I've read, it has to be more explicit than a simple "DNR", since DNR could stand for anything.

Every state I know of requires that you purchase insurance in order to operate a motor vehicle on the road. Part of the required policy is liability coverage. Since liability coverage's purpose is to pay medical expenses, both theirs and yours based on who is at fault, I don't see that you can waive your right not to pay medical expenses (through insurance) with any kind of DNR. After all, liability insurance is a requirement. As for out-of-pocket expenses beyond the liabiilty limit, you can't say you won't pay that either. After all, anybody can sue anyone for any amount in the 'ol USA. If the person at fault didn't have insurance then I would think that your insurance will pay your medical expenses and then go after the people at fault through lawsuits in order to get their money back, but in that case you shouldn't have to pay anything.

So with what little I know about this I don't think you can legally waive your right to not pay. The examples listed above are also valid also because first responders will be doing what they can to save the victims. DNR's are more appropriate, and still sometimes not heeded, in situations like hospitals when treatment time isn't critical.

-- Frank --

 

[Zorlac]

"Part of the required policy is liability coverage. Since liability coverage's purpose is to pay medical expenses, both theirs and yours"

In NJ, motorcycle insurance does not include medical coverage for the rider.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

"Part of the required policy is liability coverage. Since liability coverage's purpose is to pay medical expenses, both theirs and yours"
In NJ, motorcycle insurance does not include medical coverage for the rider.

Yes, there are other "No Fault" states where motorcycle insurance explicity denies medical coverage. And, remember too, that almost half of motorcycle crashes are 'single vehicle' events (may not be someone else to blame?).

So with what little I know about this I don't think you can legally waive your right to not pay. The examples listed above are also valid also because first responders will be doing what they can to save the victims. DNR's are more appropriate, and still sometimes not heeded, in situations like hospitals when treatment time isn't critical.

You can, tho (if conscious), waive/refuse treatment and be released to take care of yourself on your own. The clinics/hospitals even have a term/phrase for it -- I can't remember the exact wording.

They, medical folks, will try to take care of you and will try to assure you that someone will, eventually, pay your medical bill. Remember, too, it may be many tens of thousands of $$$...

 

[user 213]

From what I've read, it has to be more explicit than a simple "DNR", since DNR could stand for anything.

FWIW - The -one- instance I know of for sure, it was written out in full. The woman was in her early 60's and terminally ill and didn't want some over zealous doctors to keep bringing her back if she coded. She had paperwork to back that up on file at the local hospital as well as on her person, but as I said, didn't want to take chances. She had a very firm desire to let things take their course, and not be machine supported.

Also a FYI - WA state does not require insurance for motorcycles. I know, bizarre, but true.

If you're conscious, you can refuse treatment. As soon as you pass out though, some do gooder will start in on you.

 

[Anthony]

I know this sounds excessively morbid, but here is my reasoning. If I were actually unconscious and NOT breathing, chances are that I would be tremendously brain damaged, to the point that I would be put on life support or be completely paralyzed, etc. This is what I wish to avoid. I am a very cautious rider with some of the best gear around, and I ride safely. I am just trying to avoid locked in syndrome or a life of financial debt at all costs.

 

[SacramentoMike]

1. Get a hand grenade someplace.

2. Fasten a short wire to the pin. Stick the grenade in your pocket.

3. Fasten other end of wire to the bike using some kind of detachable clip.

4. In the event of a sudden ejection, all your problems will be over. (You did say you couldn't afford "any sort" of accident-related) medical bills, right?)

5. NEVER FORGET to disconnect the wire upon normal dismounting. (This step is important.)

By the way, you'll save a lot on gear this way. Don't thank me. I just like to help.

 

[L2M]

It sounds to me like you actually have two issues/questions here with their relevant solution permutations:

1. Avoiding unwanted resuscitation

2. Not accumulating medical bills for other injuries

On item one I think the simplest approach is to ensure that your will states that you do not want to be resuscitated and ensure that your closes relatives are clearly aware of this. If you can't get your closest relative to agree then the next best thing I've heard is to assign power of attorney in your will to someone who will honor your wishes. Both my wife and I share your sentiments on this and have made this clear to our family members and to each other. Neither of us wants a repeat of the Terry Schivo incident. If you end up in a serious crash then I am not ware of anything that will prevent the EMTs from rendering aid. However, the above should prevent you from remaining a machine dependent vegetable.

On the second item, again, I don't think you can avoid help from first responders. In fact, most hospitals have a posted policy that they will provide you with aid if you are in need of immediate aid. Granted, that will be the quickest care they can provide, but they won't dump a wreck victim on the street for not having insurance. Once you are patched up, it would be up to you to hobble out of the hospital. At least that's my understanding.

Obligatory disclaimer: I am not, nor intend to ever become, a lawyer or legal professional. I am not authorized to provide legal or medical advice beyond my own speculations and recounting of memory. Take it for what it's worth...which is probably the same as the paper its printed on.

 

[Zorlac]

"most hospitals have a posted policy that they will provide you with aid if you are in need of immediate aid. Granted, that will be the quickest care they can provide, but they won't dump a wreck victim on the street for not having insurance. Once you are patched up, it would be up to you to hobble out of the hospital. At least that's my understanding."

That might be something like $15K right there.

The medical billing departments will hound you, but if you just pay them $50/mo till forever, they'll just suck it up.

 

[fjrboomer]

I also am not an expert but I will tell you my experience with advanced directives also called living wills. You have to name someone as your representative, usually a close family member. If married, the wife, then parents, children or siblings. I have had two relatives in which decisions were made to end life support. In each case not only the person named but the other immediate family members had to consent before the hospital would pull life support. So as previously mentioned, you need to discuss your desires with all family members and whom ever you name bmust be a strong advocate for your desires. There is almost always one family member who will not want your life ended.

As to paying medical expenses, there is not way to avoid those even if you die. Your estate if you have one will be charged. A wife can be required to pay even if you are deceased. If you are an adult no other relative can be charged those expenses if your estate doea not cover them.

 

[Anthony]

1. Get a hand grenade someplace.
2. Fasten a short wire to the pin. Stick the grenade in your pocket.

3. Fasten other end of wire to the bike using some kind of detachable clip.

4. In the event of a sudden ejection, all your problems will be over. (You did say you couldn't afford "any sort" of accident-related) medical bills, right?)

5. NEVER FORGET to disconnect the wire upon normal dismounting. (This step is important.)

By the way, you'll save a lot on gear this way. Don't thank me. I just like to help.

This might be the best reply to any post that I've ever made in any type of forum. Seriously, I love this bunch.

 

[worldbound4now]

Forewarning... these comments are from a general knowledge and not professional advice: A DNR will only cover you if you suffer from a medical condition which, with reasonable judgement by the health care provider, is not recoverable. If you are involved in an accident on your FJR and 911 is called, you become subject to the judgement of the emergency medical system, especially in the event that you are unable to make sound decisions. Arrival to an emergency department OR a call to 911 usually denotes implied consent for life-saving treatment. The DNR is usually followed if there is a legal next of kin or other decision maker present to reinforce the withholding of treatment. The act of calling for emergency medical services (by you or any bystander) seems to be viewed as implied consent for emergent treatment, which occurred after the time of the DNR completion, and may be viewed as a change of intent on resuscitation efforts. Clarification of those wishes usually necessitates your designated decision maker or a legal next-of-kin.

Before you try to use the contract, read about the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA). Some laws designed to protect our health can subject the citizen to unwanted financial burden, but the laws are reportedly for the greater good.

(God I am trying so hard to not make this a political thread deviation.... did I do well?)

 

[Zorlac]

From the emtala FAQ's.

13. Can the hospital inquire about the patient's ability to pay?

Yes, but timing is everything. The statute does not prohibit an inquiry into availability of medical insurance; it does provide that neither examination nor treatment may be delayed to make the inquiry.

Prior to 2003, some knowledgeable commentators had suggested that no discussion of any payment issues should take place before the medical screening examination and any needed stabilizing treatment are provided. CMS has even recommended that hospital personnel not answer any questions initiated by the patient, apparently on the theory that some patients may be dissuaded from staying if they learn that they will be financially responsible for the treatment, even if they are assured that they will be seen without consideration of payment issues. Such recommendations, however, do not arise to the level of a definitive statement of what is required.

It should go without saying, but it unfortunately doesn't, that there should be no sign on the wall declaring any policy regarding prepayment of fees or payment of co-pays and deductibles.

 

[JT 384]

Here in Canada DNR are for only persons who are terminally ill. I have come across them at work doing calls (firefighter). Its a form that is signed by the persons doctor, it's given to us once on scene. A family can not say the person doesn't want to resisatated , we have to have the form from the hospital.

You can not refuse treatment if you are in a MVC. I feel bad for all you guys in the US. I hope that you too will be covered one day and the worry of WHAT IF ! is removed from your every day living.

JT

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

I know this sounds excessively morbid, but here is my reasoning. If I were actually unconscious and NOT breathing, chances are that I would be tremendously brain damaged, to the point that I would be put on life support or be completely paralyzed, etc. This is what I wish to avoid. I am a very cautious rider with some of the best gear around, and I ride safely. I am just trying to avoid locked in syndrome or a life of financial debt at all costs.

Currently..., a very real concern (imo).

Unless you've been provided very good insurance coverage (through an employer or other), have self-purchased insurance to cover all your activities, or are self-insured (wealthy) -- you may want to consider a more 'risk-averse' lifestyle?

 

[worldbound4now]

From the emtala FAQ's.
13. Can the hospital inquire about the patient's ability to pay?

Yes, but timing is everything. The statute does not prohibit an inquiry into availability of medical insurance; it does provide that neither examination nor treatment may be delayed to make the inquiry.

Prior to 2003, some knowledgeable commentators had suggested that no discussion of any payment issues should take place before the medical screening examination and any needed stabilizing treatment are provided. CMS has even recommended that hospital personnel not answer any questions initiated by the patient, apparently on the theory that some patients may be dissuaded from staying if they learn that they will be financially responsible for the treatment, even if they are assured that they will be seen without consideration of payment issues. Such recommendations, however, do not arise to the level of a definitive statement of what is required.

It should go without saying, but it unfortunately doesn't, that there should be no sign on the wall declaring any policy regarding prepayment of fees or payment of co-pays and deductibles.

An unfortunate result of EMTALA is the misinformation that the patient can be seen in the ED free of charge, because the law requires a medical screening exam/stabilization treatment.

Back to the DNR.... just maintain open communication about your choices with your family and provide them with a copy of your advanced directive. Some, not all, states will honor a notarized copy of a generic state approved form as legitimate. Some DNR forms will not cross state lines, so the healthcare system will default to your legal next of kin. Either way, you need to be suffering from a condition that is not foreseen as recoverable.