Dual Platinum Spark Plugs
- Thread starter Slardy
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3dogs
Well-known member
Automotove training/service manuals (motorcycle too) use conventional electron theory to explain the flow of electricity. So diagrams always show electrons/amperage flowing from postitive to negative. Makes it easier to explain how stuff works and where to check for voltage drops etc...And it is almost right.Electrons flow from negative to positive. (Hole flow theory is pretty outdated)
How common is coil-on-plug on motorcycles? Every bike I've ever seen uses a wasted spark setup. Caveat: I haven't really seen that many bikes...
In 1989 I bought a Ford sedan. It's v6 engine used a wasted spark design with two different spark plug part numbers. One had a platinum center electrode, the other a platinum side electrode. Only time I have ever encountered such a thing. Although this is how it came from the factory, the only replacement parts available were dual platinum plugs.
In 1989 I bought a Ford sedan. It's v6 engine used a wasted spark design with two different spark plug part numbers. One had a platinum center electrode, the other a platinum side electrode. Only time I have ever encountered such a thing. Although this is how it came from the factory, the only replacement parts available were dual platinum plugs.
Some days I think I'm pretty smart. I learned something here today that was completely foreign to me when I arose. The more I know, the more I know that I don't. I appreciate the earned expertise displayed. Here ends the gratis humility lesson (for the moment).
Not a great idea unless you are looking to acid test your cardiac integrity. By grabbing a high voltage source with one hand and grounding your opposite one you are putting your ticker right in the current path, and that current, which is directly proportional to voltage and inversely proportional to your body resistance, can reach fatal levels pretty easily.The state of these plug wires is easily tested by grasping anywhere on the wire with one hand and the chassis of the vehicle with the other while the engine is running
Yes. You G3 guys are the lucky ducks.
Sorry, but conventional electron flow is from negative to positive. Yes a lot of auto and bike manuals describe "current flow" as being positive to negative, but that is just ridiculous backwards thinking. On an atomic level, nothing is physically flowing in that direction. It is just common sense that the electrons, which are negatively charged particles, will build up on the negative side of the voltage and that the positive side is only positive in comparison to those built up 'trons. When current does flow it is electrons moving between atoms in the conductor and their direction of movement is from an area with excess electrons to an area of fewer electrons, from negative to positive.Automotove training/service manuals (motorcycle too) use conventional electron theory to explain the flow of electricity. So diagrams always show electrons/amperage flowing from postitive to negative. Makes it easier to explain how stuff works and where to check for voltage drops etc...And it is almost right.Electrons flow from negative to positive. (Hole flow theory is pretty outdated)
It is pretty common now on new designs. Older model bikes are still being produced with older ignition designs, but pretty much any new engines come with the COP. There are so many functional advantages that even though having all of those coils is more expensive than using some sort of distributive design, it is still worth having.
I have had one bad experience with a COP ignition, this was on a high output SAAB turbo engine. Beginning in 2003 the 2 liter 4 cyl engines all had COP ignition. My daughter's '03 9-3 blew a spark plug out of the head at ~ 150k miles. This, naturally, trashed the COP over that plug, but after I replaced the coil, and heli-coiled the plug hole successfully, I was still getting misfiring. Turns out that the other 3 COP coils were also stressed out by the traumatic event and I ended up having to replace the other 3 as well. Those coils cost ~$100 a pop. But that car is still running now and closing in on 200k miles now.
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ionbeam
2 FUN
[Andy Rooney] Gee Fred, now I'm really confused. Why does my meter read from positive to negative, or are meters made to read electrons flowing from negative to positive. If electrons do flow from negative to positive why does everyone say it goes the other way and my current meter also measures flow from positive to negative. I guess I'll just go burn my meter then it won't matter.[/Andy Rooney]And it is almost right.Electrons flow from negative to positive. (Hole flow theory is pretty outdated)Sorry, but conventional electron flow is from negative to positive. Yes a lot of auto and bike manuals describe "current flow" as being positive to negative, but that is just ridiculous backwards thinking. On an atomic level, nothing is physically flowing in that direction. It is just common sense that the electrons, which are negatively charged particles, will build up on the negative side of the voltage and that the positive side is only positive in comparison to those built up 'trons. When current does flow it is electrons moving between atoms in the conductor and their direction of movement is from an area with excess electrons to an area of fewer electrons, from negative to positive.
I have seen this topic melt down some of my new electronic technicians. You should see a solid state technician try to work on a vacuum tube system!
lnewlf
Well-known member
Big deal-just go anal and rotate your plugs...oh- and tires too
and don't bend the plug wires too much- the electrons will wear out the outside curve of the wire!!
and don't bend the plug wires too much- the electrons will wear out the outside curve of the wire!!
bergmen
Well-known member
Back in the day ('60s, '70s), we would get whacked regularly when touching either a spark plug or coil wire. Probably happened to me several thousand times when I worked as a mechanic. Never once heard of anyone dying because of this. Ever.Not a great idea unless you are looking to acid test your cardiac integrity. By grabbing a high voltage source with one hand and grounding your opposite one you are putting your ticker right in the current path, and that current, which is directly proportional to voltage and inversely proportional to your body resistance, can reach fatal levels pretty easily.The state of these plug wires is easily tested by grasping anywhere on the wire with one hand and the chassis of the vehicle with the other while the engine is running
Dan
[Andy Rooney] Gee Fred, now I'm really confused. Why does my meter read from positive to negative, or are meters made to read electrons flowing from negative to positive. If electrons do flow from negative to positive why does everyone say it goes the other way and my current meter also measures flow from positive to negative. I guess I'll just go burn my meter then it won't matter.[/Andy Rooney]And it is almost right.Electrons flow from negative to positive. (Hole flow theory is pretty outdated)Sorry, but conventional electron flow is from negative to positive. Yes a lot of auto and bike manuals describe "current flow" as being positive to negative, but that is just ridiculous backwards thinking. On an atomic level, nothing is physically flowing in that direction. It is just common sense that the electrons, which are negatively charged particles, will build up on the negative side of the voltage and that the positive side is only positive in comparison to those built up 'trons. When current does flow it is electrons moving between atoms in the conductor and their direction of movement is from an area with excess electrons to an area of fewer electrons, from negative to positive.
I have seen this topic melt down some of my new electronic technicians. You should see a solid state technician try to work on a vacuum tube system!
I feel like I am being baited by a master... (a master baiter?)
But here goes anyway:Your meter doesn't read "from positive to negative". Yes the electrons do flow through your meter from the negative to the positive, even if the "negative" is grounded, it will have more electrons than the positive side, so that's how those trons will flow. It merely reads the difference in electrical potential between any two points regardless of their absolute electrical charge levels. And an ammeter (current meter) also registers electrons that are flowing from the more negative lead to the less negative lead.
The terms Negative and Positive are always relative to some other point, usually to each other. The reason some people believe that current flows from the positive battery pole is because we have (traditionally) ground referenced the negative side. Doesn't matter in the least. Grounding the negative side doesn't change the potential difference between it and the positive pole. Even in that case the electron current then flows from ground, through the circuit to the positive pole.
If many years ago they had decided to just ground the positive side of all power sources everything would still work exactly the same. I owned an MGB that was (still) 6 volt positive grounded. It worked fine electrically. Well, it worked as well as any other British automobile with Lucas Electrics.
FWIW - I cut my electronic teeth on vacuum tubes, where electron movement is emphasized as being the key to current flow. The same is true in semiconductor theory, it's all about the electrons. I mean, you might be able to get the nucleus of the atom to flow, but that would only be in a liquid state, and that would not constitute electrical current.
Yeah, probably for several reasons. One is that you were young and had a healthy heart. One that the muscles wouldn't easily get spazzed out by a few milliamps of current. The older you get the less likely you are to withstand a shock through the heart muscle.Back in the day ('60s, '70s), we would get whacked regularly when touching either a spark plug or coil wire. Probably happened to me several thousand times when I worked as a mechanic. Never once heard of anyone dying because of this. Ever.Not a great idea unless you are looking to acid test your cardiac integrity. By grabbing a high voltage source with one hand and grounding your opposite one you are putting your ticker right in the current path, and that current, which is directly proportional to voltage and inversely proportional to your body resistance, can reach fatal levels pretty easily.The state of these plug wires is easily tested by grasping anywhere on the wire with one hand and the chassis of the vehicle with the other while the engine is running
Dan
Your skin was probably pretty dry, which increases the resistance to current flow dramatically, and your return point to the vehicle ground was probably not a solid electrical contact.
But most importantly the voltage from an ignition coil is intense but short duration. After you get whacked you can pull back after the first shock to reduce the damage. Doesn't mean that I would put that current through my heart on a regular basis, but if that's your bag... go for it.
I suspect the ones for whom it doesn't work well for probably don't account their results too often.
mcatrophy
Privileged to ride a 2018 FJR1300AS
[off topic background information]
It is a normal convention to say that electricity flows from positive to negative. This was the best guess prior to the discovery of the electron, and it is most unlikely that this convention will change in the forseeable future.
In any normal conductor, electrons are the majority carrier of electrical energy. In some materials, notably semiconductors, it is possible for the energy to flow in the form of "holes", where in physical terms a "hole" is the absence of an electron. Here there will be a positive charge on an atom that is missing an electron. As the current flows, the hole will be filled by an electron from the adjacent atom, so the positive charge leaves the first atom and transfers to the next. This continues along the material, so constituting a positive current flow.
The computing device you are using to read this relies on this mechanism.
[/off topic]
It is a normal convention to say that electricity flows from positive to negative. This was the best guess prior to the discovery of the electron, and it is most unlikely that this convention will change in the forseeable future.
In any normal conductor, electrons are the majority carrier of electrical energy. In some materials, notably semiconductors, it is possible for the energy to flow in the form of "holes", where in physical terms a "hole" is the absence of an electron. Here there will be a positive charge on an atom that is missing an electron. As the current flows, the hole will be filled by an electron from the adjacent atom, so the positive charge leaves the first atom and transfers to the next. This continues along the material, so constituting a positive current flow.
The computing device you are using to read this relies on this mechanism.
[/off topic]
rushes
Well-known member
Fuel/air mix, compression, spark. Boom.
Spark plugs are cheap compared to tires.
Some of you are a bit strange.....
Spark plugs are cheap compared to tires.
Some of you are a bit strange.....
The idea that the absence of something can move is pretty much abstract. It is not that the holes are moving, it is that the electrons are moving to a new hole. As noted correctly, those ideas of the direction of electrical current flow were developed before they even knew positively ( ha! nerd joke) that electrons even existed. I mean, yeah... they had a 50/50 chance and of course they got it wrong! Now that we do know, why carry on the charade?
FWIW - My glass is half full (of electrons).
FWIW - My glass is half full (of electrons).
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rushes
Well-known member
I think you're all full of s.... um, something.....
BTW, I like a moving hole better than one that just lays there.
BTW, I like a moving hole better than one that just lays there.
:lol:
Queensland Ken
Well-known member
Now we have both Electron and Hole theory explained, has anybody x-referenced the NGK CPR8EA-9 to Iridiums ?
Have to do a few more in depth Google searches.
I spent 4 years becoming an Electrical Fitter Mechanic then 2 years doing industrial electronics.
Had to throw the books away and learn all about electrons again.
Either wich way they "hurt"
Have to do a few more in depth Google searches.
I spent 4 years becoming an Electrical Fitter Mechanic then 2 years doing industrial electronics.
Had to throw the books away and learn all about electrons again.
Either wich way they "hurt"
I was wondering the same thing and found this on one of the other fjr forums: "Got a reply from NGK Technical and as of now there is not an iridium replacement for the CPR8EA9 plug. Apparently Yamaha replaced the CRE8 with the CPR8EA9, the only apparent difference is increased lenght of the insulator. It would seem the CR8EIX's would still be ok to use."
Can anyone confirm or refute this?
FJRay
Well-known member
It's almost Friday. As I understand you fart smellers half of the plugs fire the wrong direction.so if on each oil change we were to exchange the plugs 1-3 and 2-4 can we even out the wear??? If that worked we would probably not need new plugs for ever. I think I have at least 75k on the ones in the bike now so next oil change I'm rotating the plugs along with changing the air in the tires. It's time for summer air.
Queensland Ken
Well-known member
NO
Been to a few auto stores, they don't even stock the CPR8EA9 not alone able to determine a replacement.
Someone must make a iridium.
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Yeah... so does the CR8E (or CR8EIX). So I think it would be electrically OK for the COPs. But maybe not mechanically?
Decoding of the CR8E plugs and the CPR8EA9 according to NGK's technical literature, they are both:
C (10mm thread diameter)
R (Resistor type)
8 (Heat range 8)
E (19mm thread reach)
But the 3rd gen plugs are also:
P (Projected insulator)
A (Special Design)
9 (wider .036" gap)
Here's a look at the working ends of the CPR8EA9 plug vs the CR8E.
Not sure I'd bother trying to install the iridium plugs. I'm sure that the stock ones will still last at least 15k miles with no problem. How much longer would you really want to leave them in for?
