fjrpilot1945
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I agree with XJRGUY. Your choice of an A or AE. Who cares!
E- Shift On 2006
- Thread starter FJRSANDIEGO
- Start date
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fjrpilot1945
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DOWNN2. See you at the dealership for pick-up in may! My guess is you made a good choice.
BrunDog
Well-known member
mcmaster: You must be psychic. Because you read something other than what I wrote. I never made any reference to how it was going to feel.
How it is going to operate, on the other hand, is shear fact. My last three cars had manumatics: GS400 (with buttons on the steering wheel), 330i with steptronic, and a Touareg with tiptronic (or whatever they call it). Not one of those gave me the control of a manual. It's that simple, and that is exactly what I said.
In addtion, how did you cobble together the conclusion that the current mileage on my bike is directly correlated to to my skill level or knowledge about the FJR specifically? More psychic abilities I suppose...
Nonetheless, I agree with madmike. Until an test ride report is offered, we won't know how good it is.
My money is still on the scooter.
Oh, and downn2: I have a feeling that you'll be the one sucking fumes. You know, with all that extra weight...
-BD
How it is going to operate, on the other hand, is shear fact. My last three cars had manumatics: GS400 (with buttons on the steering wheel), 330i with steptronic, and a Touareg with tiptronic (or whatever they call it). Not one of those gave me the control of a manual. It's that simple, and that is exactly what I said.
In addtion, how did you cobble together the conclusion that the current mileage on my bike is directly correlated to to my skill level or knowledge about the FJR specifically? More psychic abilities I suppose...
Nonetheless, I agree with madmike. Until an test ride report is offered, we won't know how good it is.
My money is still on the scooter.
Oh, and downn2: I have a feeling that you'll be the one sucking fumes. You know, with all that extra weight...
-BD
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Not at all true. How do you define fact?
None of the examples you provide are remotely close to the FJR's system.
That is fact.
Many keep trying to compare the new FJR's system to "manumatics" or "steptronics" of some variety or other and I don't understand this.
How many times must it be said? Those are AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS that give the operator more but limited control to perfrom manual gear selection. In other words, think torque converter and NO CLUTCH!!!!
The FJR's system is a MANUAL TRANSMISSION in which the computer automatically operates the clutch.
Completely different!!!!!!
Anything else is pure speculation.
And BrunDog, any moron could figure out that the way you expressed your opinions in your initial post would have raised the ire of many. You COULD have expressed those same opinions in a way that would not be insulting. Kapiche?
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mastercaster
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ScooterG, THANK YOU :clap: ....those are the words i was looking for. i guess in my maddened state ( from brundog's comments) i couldn't quite get into words my thoughts properly. i do understand the workings of it.
also if it hasn't been noted, the AE shift pattern is going to be N-1-2-3-4-5. this can be seen on yamaha's web site. follow the link below, save the pic then zoom in on the shifter area. the pattern can be seen imprinted on the side cover next to the shifter.
https://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products.../4/0/image.aspx
brundog, how many miles have you ridden in the past 12 months. i'd rather listen to someone who actually rides. any of us can sit around and read up on the fjr. not saying that is what you do, but i do think the best experience comes firsthand. your right, it has nothing to do with your skill level. you can have been riding for the last umpteen years on different bikes.i am sure you're a skilled rider. but, i was under the impession( mileage posted) that you don't have alot of time in the pilot seat of an fjr. i think that time in on the bike you speak of does matter. please do correct me if i'm wrong.
also if it hasn't been noted, the AE shift pattern is going to be N-1-2-3-4-5. this can be seen on yamaha's web site. follow the link below, save the pic then zoom in on the shifter area. the pattern can be seen imprinted on the side cover next to the shifter.
https://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products.../4/0/image.aspx
brundog, how many miles have you ridden in the past 12 months. i'd rather listen to someone who actually rides. any of us can sit around and read up on the fjr. not saying that is what you do, but i do think the best experience comes firsthand. your right, it has nothing to do with your skill level. you can have been riding for the last umpteen years on different bikes.i am sure you're a skilled rider. but, i was under the impession( mileage posted) that you don't have alot of time in the pilot seat of an fjr. i think that time in on the bike you speak of does matter. please do correct me if i'm wrong.
I do have some experience with something similar, and after lurking in the shadows reading all of these opinions, I feel the need to actually contribute - for a change... I am sure much more will come over the next few months.
I have an 05 (only 11k - go ahead and make fun), and don't plan on plunking for a new one any time soon, but it might be dang interesting. The following are some descriptions of my experiences with a dirt bike equipped with an aftermarket automatic clutch, and how it may <or may not> relate to the AE.
Why:
Another bike in my garage is a Honda CRF450R motocross bike, set up for tight woods riding. Among the farkels on that bike is a REVLOCK automatic clutch. These clutches were berated by a lot of people (including me) when they were first introduced a few years ago, but the funny thing is that quite a few of those eventually tried one and loved it. The main reason that I tried it was that I had ordered the CRF (first year it was introduced) in advance, thinking it would be the ultimate light weight / high power woods weapon, but later concluded that dedicated (KTM type) woods bikes were a lot easier to go fast on, because they had wider spaced gearing, with a lower first, and a more mellow powerband and heavier flywheel. I decided to experiment, and try this new clutch that was just being introduced, instead of buying another bike. It made a huge change.
Uses of Automatic Clutches on Competitive Off Road Bikes:
Automatic clutches have a narrow purpose and place in the dirt bike world - that is extremely rough technical terain (rocky & muddy goat trails). They suck on a motocross track, and they have little use in most trail riding and general off road riding and racing. In the tight stuff they shine and change the whole character of a bike - Scoots like a scalded dog, but pulls like a tractor that never stalls. Large displacement four stroke motocross bikes are tricky in eastern enduro terain due to their gearing and ultra light flywheels (bull in a china shop type thing), but the clutch changes them into smooth pulling machines. Shim washers are used to adjust the "slip/lock" RPM range. At the local lease club, a fair size minority of riders are using them (10-20%). Most of them are actually used by expert enduro riders that have found a slight overall advantage, and less fatige during a 100 mile race. In tight areas, two fingers are constantly working a typical clutch to keep the engine momentum up. The clutch is just another consumable, just like brake pads. It is possible to consistantly run in higher gears, and lower RPMs, to increase traction, while the clutch automatically slips when needed. Most people describe one of these clutches as having a pro's fingers working their clutch for them.
Current Clutch Type and basic functions:
The various versions available now for dirt bikes use roller balls in tapered grooves inside of the clutch pressure plate assembly to gradually put pressure on the stock friction plates through a centrifical effect as the engine speed increases under throttle. These are far superior to the auto clutches on small beginner dirt bikes or ATVs. Instead of slinging shoes against the inside of a drum (like drum brake), they use the full size stock friction and metal clutch plates, which provide much more overall contact area. There is basically no clutch action during shifting, but dirt bike transmisions are designed to be regularly shifted without the clutch. Engine braking functions are the same as with a normal clutch - unless the RPM is allowed to fall below the slip/lock threshold, then it is like smoothly slipping into neutral. A blip of the throttle restarts the engine braking effect if you forget, and let the RPM drop. If you slam an obstical without down shifting first, you can twist the throttle and it will go anyway, but if you want to maintain a fast pace, you do still need to shift....
Negative issues:
1. The bike free wheels when stuck on the side of a hill if the engine ever stops, which is almost never unless you fall. With an ordinary clutch, having the bike in gear is like having an emergency brake - not anymore. The first time this happened, I accidently rolled backwards and flipped down the hill.... This is not a big issue after you get used to it. Actually, hill climbing is much easier overall.
2. It is absolutely impossible to jump start.
3. On a motocross track, the clutch is a jump launch trigger, and the standard clutch functions better for this.
4. Occasionally (very, very rair), the bike will stall when slamming on the back brake because the balls don't slip in the grooves fast enough. This is extremely rare, especially when considering how often the back brake is slammed on during a typical day.
Conclusion:
I know it will be different with a street bike, and it will be different with a computer controlled automatic clutch, as opposed to my dinosaur version. I assume a hydraulic proportional valve will be used to constantly control pressure plate travel and force as the computer program determines need. Some of the above negatives will probably be corrected for through computer control. However, the main benifit is a little vauge, compared to the obvious but very narrow benifits described above. If the AE version is well thought out there will be few if any true negatives. It should be very smooth during upshifts, it should still have engine breaking, it should handle obsticals well, it may have some "slipper clutch" capabilities during down shifting in corners, etc., etc. However, all those benifits are do-able with your left fingers..... If you like new stuff, buy it. If you like tradition feel, or if you like to feather your own down shifts, don't. I think Yamaha sees the FJR as a safe platform to experiment with. If I were buying an 06 instead of the bike I bought, I would need to seriously evaluate. I like shifting. My cage truck is an automatic, so staying traditional would probably be my final decision - more sporty to me. We will know if it is a true go-fast tool if a lighter weight version comes out on a future limited R1.
John Meek
32 years of unproductive time spent goofing off on motorcycles...
I have an 05 (only 11k - go ahead and make fun), and don't plan on plunking for a new one any time soon, but it might be dang interesting. The following are some descriptions of my experiences with a dirt bike equipped with an aftermarket automatic clutch, and how it may <or may not> relate to the AE.
Why:
Another bike in my garage is a Honda CRF450R motocross bike, set up for tight woods riding. Among the farkels on that bike is a REVLOCK automatic clutch. These clutches were berated by a lot of people (including me) when they were first introduced a few years ago, but the funny thing is that quite a few of those eventually tried one and loved it. The main reason that I tried it was that I had ordered the CRF (first year it was introduced) in advance, thinking it would be the ultimate light weight / high power woods weapon, but later concluded that dedicated (KTM type) woods bikes were a lot easier to go fast on, because they had wider spaced gearing, with a lower first, and a more mellow powerband and heavier flywheel. I decided to experiment, and try this new clutch that was just being introduced, instead of buying another bike. It made a huge change.
Uses of Automatic Clutches on Competitive Off Road Bikes:
Automatic clutches have a narrow purpose and place in the dirt bike world - that is extremely rough technical terain (rocky & muddy goat trails). They suck on a motocross track, and they have little use in most trail riding and general off road riding and racing. In the tight stuff they shine and change the whole character of a bike - Scoots like a scalded dog, but pulls like a tractor that never stalls. Large displacement four stroke motocross bikes are tricky in eastern enduro terain due to their gearing and ultra light flywheels (bull in a china shop type thing), but the clutch changes them into smooth pulling machines. Shim washers are used to adjust the "slip/lock" RPM range. At the local lease club, a fair size minority of riders are using them (10-20%). Most of them are actually used by expert enduro riders that have found a slight overall advantage, and less fatige during a 100 mile race. In tight areas, two fingers are constantly working a typical clutch to keep the engine momentum up. The clutch is just another consumable, just like brake pads. It is possible to consistantly run in higher gears, and lower RPMs, to increase traction, while the clutch automatically slips when needed. Most people describe one of these clutches as having a pro's fingers working their clutch for them.
Current Clutch Type and basic functions:
The various versions available now for dirt bikes use roller balls in tapered grooves inside of the clutch pressure plate assembly to gradually put pressure on the stock friction plates through a centrifical effect as the engine speed increases under throttle. These are far superior to the auto clutches on small beginner dirt bikes or ATVs. Instead of slinging shoes against the inside of a drum (like drum brake), they use the full size stock friction and metal clutch plates, which provide much more overall contact area. There is basically no clutch action during shifting, but dirt bike transmisions are designed to be regularly shifted without the clutch. Engine braking functions are the same as with a normal clutch - unless the RPM is allowed to fall below the slip/lock threshold, then it is like smoothly slipping into neutral. A blip of the throttle restarts the engine braking effect if you forget, and let the RPM drop. If you slam an obstical without down shifting first, you can twist the throttle and it will go anyway, but if you want to maintain a fast pace, you do still need to shift....
Negative issues:
1. The bike free wheels when stuck on the side of a hill if the engine ever stops, which is almost never unless you fall. With an ordinary clutch, having the bike in gear is like having an emergency brake - not anymore. The first time this happened, I accidently rolled backwards and flipped down the hill.... This is not a big issue after you get used to it. Actually, hill climbing is much easier overall.
2. It is absolutely impossible to jump start.
3. On a motocross track, the clutch is a jump launch trigger, and the standard clutch functions better for this.
4. Occasionally (very, very rair), the bike will stall when slamming on the back brake because the balls don't slip in the grooves fast enough. This is extremely rare, especially when considering how often the back brake is slammed on during a typical day.
Conclusion:
I know it will be different with a street bike, and it will be different with a computer controlled automatic clutch, as opposed to my dinosaur version. I assume a hydraulic proportional valve will be used to constantly control pressure plate travel and force as the computer program determines need. Some of the above negatives will probably be corrected for through computer control. However, the main benifit is a little vauge, compared to the obvious but very narrow benifits described above. If the AE version is well thought out there will be few if any true negatives. It should be very smooth during upshifts, it should still have engine breaking, it should handle obsticals well, it may have some "slipper clutch" capabilities during down shifting in corners, etc., etc. However, all those benifits are do-able with your left fingers..... If you like new stuff, buy it. If you like tradition feel, or if you like to feather your own down shifts, don't. I think Yamaha sees the FJR as a safe platform to experiment with. If I were buying an 06 instead of the bike I bought, I would need to seriously evaluate. I like shifting. My cage truck is an automatic, so staying traditional would probably be my final decision - more sporty to me. We will know if it is a true go-fast tool if a lighter weight version comes out on a future limited R1.
John Meek
32 years of unproductive time spent goofing off on motorcycles...
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Thanks for the post - excellent write-up, but I still have one issue with some of your wording.
What you should have said, IMHO of course, is, "I like clutching".
And IMHO, and MHO only, since the operator is still "shifting" the AE FJR, it will still be sporty - maybe even more sporty since you are able to easily make errorless shifts. (Encourage aggressive shifting?) But that is up to each individual to decide for themselves whether it is something they might like. And to both sides of the debate - no need to critcize the other's choice.
It's all good.
You still have to ***shift*** the AE FJR, the computer does NOT do it for you. Same as your dirtbike application, correct?
What you should have said, IMHO of course, is, "I like clutching".
And IMHO, and MHO only, since the operator is still "shifting" the AE FJR, it will still be sporty - maybe even more sporty since you are able to easily make errorless shifts. (Encourage aggressive shifting?) But that is up to each individual to decide for themselves whether it is something they might like. And to both sides of the debate - no need to critcize the other's choice.
It's all good.
I agree. I should have said clutching, and shifting. I skunked some spelling as well as the wording.
I am not having to actually make a decision now. I just felt that after the blah-blah on the subject I should state my leaning. I think the AE would be endlessly cool. I design and develop production manufacturing systems for a living. The idea of my own personal hydraulic proportional valve operating on my behalf has a certain appeal.... Complex? Maybe. Cool? Definately. Very sporty in it's own way - as you say. I just think that tradition has a soft spot in my heart, and it would be a tough choice for me. If tradition were all I cared about I would ride a hunk of iron. If I keep going on I will probably change my mind.....
I am not having to actually make a decision now. I just felt that after the blah-blah on the subject I should state my leaning. I think the AE would be endlessly cool. I design and develop production manufacturing systems for a living. The idea of my own personal hydraulic proportional valve operating on my behalf has a certain appeal.... Complex? Maybe. Cool? Definately. Very sporty in it's own way - as you say. I just think that tradition has a soft spot in my heart, and it would be a tough choice for me. If tradition were all I cared about I would ride a hunk of iron. If I keep going on I will probably change my mind.....
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Most excellent! VERY well stated. I agree with you 99%.
I too think it is cool, and for me, the coolness factor edges out the loss of traditional clutching, so I would most likely go with an AE.
Until, or unless, real world experience shows it to be a fubar'd system - But I don't think that will happen.
Of course it could be entirely possible that after "playing" with an AE for a while, I would get bored with it and miss the traditional clutch, but I doubt it.
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Hand Shift -or- Foot Shift Option
Reading the UK Yamaha site it seems that the rider must select the 'Hand Shift Mode' in order to use the hand shift switch. If the 'Hand Shift Mode' is not selected then the rider can shift using the foot shift pedal.
https://www.yamaha-motor.co.uk/products/mot...300as_intro.jsp
It doesn't say where the mode selection switch is located.
Reading the UK Yamaha site it seems that the rider must select the 'Hand Shift Mode' in order to use the hand shift switch. If the 'Hand Shift Mode' is not selected then the rider can shift using the foot shift pedal.
https://www.yamaha-motor.co.uk/products/mot...300as_intro.jsp
It doesn't say where the mode selection switch is located.
F
fjr1945
Guest
SkooterG
Someone who understands how the "AE" electronic clutch and transmission work! Good posts!
I feel the same way as some of you about abandoning the traditional clutch, but I made the decision to go with the AE because it will more than likely be smoother, more precise and result in both better performance (consistantly smoother shifts) and less wear and tear on the transmission and clutch assemblies.
The 05 stays in the barn just in case I feel the need to squeeze a clutch! My biggest fear is swithcing back and forth between such similar bikes, one with and one without a clutch. Once accustom to the "E" clutch it will undoubtedly be difficult to revert to a manual clutch especially on a bike that is essentially the same in all other respects.
My guess is that the 05 will probably eventually go on the auction block as the low mileage (26K) gem that she is.
Life's little problems....
Someone who understands how the "AE" electronic clutch and transmission work! Good posts!
I feel the same way as some of you about abandoning the traditional clutch, but I made the decision to go with the AE because it will more than likely be smoother, more precise and result in both better performance (consistantly smoother shifts) and less wear and tear on the transmission and clutch assemblies.
The 05 stays in the barn just in case I feel the need to squeeze a clutch! My biggest fear is swithcing back and forth between such similar bikes, one with and one without a clutch. Once accustom to the "E" clutch it will undoubtedly be difficult to revert to a manual clutch especially on a bike that is essentially the same in all other respects.
My guess is that the 05 will probably eventually go on the auction block as the low mileage (26K) gem that she is.
Life's little problems....
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Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
So now that we have answers to some of the questions I can see the advantages to the E model. Certainly makes it easier to shift in the middle of a curve. No need to move my foot forward and get my toe under the shift lever without dragging my boot on the ground. Also alleviates the momentary change of mental focus from the road to the shifter. Bet we see this on the sport bikes in the future.
Still doesn't talk about how the E deals with very low speed maneuvers which currently require feathering of the clutch. Also, no mention of a 'neutral finder' button that was shown on one of the after market auto shift mechanisms.
Still doesn't talk about how the E deals with very low speed maneuvers which currently require feathering of the clutch. Also, no mention of a 'neutral finder' button that was shown on one of the after market auto shift mechanisms.
protondecay123
No Delusions of Significance
HEAR, HEAR!!
What does someone have so heavily invested in SOMEONE ELSE'S CHOICE of what to ride?
NO ONE is being forced to buy that tranny unless they want!!
TROLL!!!
:clap:
IIRC the AE will have toe and left hand shifting available. I think that's a very smart move, as the natural reaction on my part would be to toe shift until successful adaptation to the AE is achieved.
It is mystifying to me how to handle the "clutching" issues of the need for partial disengagment in certain riding situations. Again an issue of adaptation, but how supremely critical this is on a ride of this size and potential velocities is mildly concerning to me.
Can't wait for the ride reports from you "Chuck Yeager types" who have ventured to try this out.
FJRocket
Doctor Throckenstein !!!
Yes, I envision the dreaded searching for 6th gear scenario all over again (clutching for non existant levers...). Then back to a traditional shift and racking the gears, or pushing the turn signal switch and not getting a gear down.
Wonder why they chose to put the up switch on the front of the housing and the down switch on the back? Seams both switches where your thumb could get to it would make more sense, one button above the other. Anyone care to speculate? Is that how quads autoshift buttons are located?
Hmmm... and the FJR1300AS model in Europe has both shift buttons at the thumb? Maybe I misunderstood something along the way... (like THAT's a first...)?
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BrunDog
Well-known member
You really want to do this?
Please go back and read what I initially wrote. You'll find an eery likeness to what you are saying here.
I know they are automatics with torque converters. I drive the damn things, I sure should. My point is, and I promise you I won't make it again, is that this system will give you less control than the manual clutches we currently ride.
Ahhh, what's the harm in a little pot stirring to get a healthy debate going? I love it. Anyway, now I see which camp you're in. It's cool man, ride what you like. I have never told anyone what to do, just expressed my opinion.
Besides, it's capiche.
-BD
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SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
BrunDog - Apology accepted.
:bleh:
:bleh:
BrunDog
Well-known member
Cool! You did it again! You heard something I never even said!
-BD
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
I am "All Knowing and Powerful".
tripletango
Well-known member
I have an 05 ABS now and have just ordered an 06 AE.
Reasons, primarily heat management and comfort with adjustable seat, bars, heated grips, linked ABS brakes but also the tiptronic trans.
I ride a Burgman 650 as a commuter and enjoy 3 different options for the trans including paddle shifting through the box.
When riding hundreds of miles in 24 hours including in traffic, I am looking forward to the ease of use and added relaxation of having the convenience of the tiptronic as well as not getting baked.
It is completely different in action to the positively variable trans of the scoot but is easier on you than the manual on the 05 for long distance high speed touring.
The FJR is still a sport oriented tourer and seems to wins all the comparisons. I think the new transmission will put it ahead even further.
If I want to wear myself out I put in a couple of hours on my speed triple!
Reasons, primarily heat management and comfort with adjustable seat, bars, heated grips, linked ABS brakes but also the tiptronic trans.
I ride a Burgman 650 as a commuter and enjoy 3 different options for the trans including paddle shifting through the box.
When riding hundreds of miles in 24 hours including in traffic, I am looking forward to the ease of use and added relaxation of having the convenience of the tiptronic as well as not getting baked.
It is completely different in action to the positively variable trans of the scoot but is easier on you than the manual on the 05 for long distance high speed touring.
The FJR is still a sport oriented tourer and seems to wins all the comparisons. I think the new transmission will put it ahead even further.
If I want to wear myself out I put in a couple of hours on my speed triple!
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