E15 / Unleaded 88 in 2008 FJR1300

[an-guy]

Hi all

Just a little brain storming and spit balling. I've been running exclusively Unleaded 88 (15% ethanol gas).

Anyone else?

I'm aware of the potential dangers for normal cars and the whole "for passenger vehicles newer than 2001".

To my understanding the issues come when you let E15 sit and it gathers water and becomes acidic. But I ride enough that I fill the bike about 3 times a week, and it's 1$ less per gallon here in PA vs 87. I'd just like to report in that maybe 5000 to 7000 miles in its fine, maybe hear some anecdotal experience, or some science or knowledge about specifically E15 in FJRs. (Couldn't easily find a suitable thread)

 

[Oldjeep]

Most boats and motorcycles have specific warnings against using e15. I'd have to check my 2007 manual and see what it says. It has nothing to do with the ethanol boogyman and everything to do with the fuel mapping and volume required to run fuel that has more ethanol in it. E15 has less energy in it than E10, which has less energy than E0. So the ecu and fuel system needs to be able to provide more fuel so that you don't run lean an melt engine parts.

 

[RossKean]

From my owner's manual:

"Gasohol containing
ethanol can be used if the ethanol content
does not exceed 10% (E10)."

Will it hurt anything? I don't know, but why take a chance? I'd like to think that Yamaha engineers know a thing or two about what fuels are fully compatible with the FJR. They don't sell E15 around here and I don't think I would use it anywhere if there was another choice.

I haven't heard about anyone reporting damage to components, but I also don't recall anyone saying they tried it.

 

[Oldjeep]

E15 is super common around here, but the only vehicle we own that might be able to run on it is my hemi RAM. Everything else we have either requires 91 octane, or specifically says not to use it.

 

[Whooshka]

an-guy, what's your MPG? If you're using more fuel to make the same power your cost savings is a wash.

Personally I wouldn't use it if it was half price.

 

[an-guy]

E15 is super common around here, but the only vehicle we own that might be able to run on it is my hemi RAM. Everything else we have either requires 91 octane, or specifically says not to use it.

My Tacoma accepts it, does not impact MPG that I know of. Maybe .5 mpg?

an-guy, what's your MPG? If you're using more fuel to make the same power your cost savings is a wash.

Personally I wouldn't use it if it was half price.

43 MPG average between all of my shenanigans and impatience with traffic. No change, surprisingly.

I should have prefaced this in the original post, but if money was no object I wouldn't bother. I'm a 22 year old with not much money. If skimping here with no tangible impact will let me put that much more towards credit cards.... that's what I'll do lol. Cheap gas is also part of why I purchased the FJR vs any BMW in existence

Thanks for the insight guys

 

[Whooshka]

Ahhh 22. We've all been there. At 22 I didn't have the proverbial 2 nickels to rub together. Totally understand.

Where in Penna you located? If you're near south Jersey and ever need a hand wrenching let me know.

 

[RossKean]

E15 has SLIGHTLY lower BTU/gal than E10, but I'm not sure if you would notice. Even E10 has just three percent lower energy density compared to E0 (no ethanol).
My biggest concern is whether the use of higher alcohol content might damage plastic or rubber fuel system components - pump, gaskets, hoses, fuel gauge, connectors etc. Not to mention whether the ECU can properly compensate the fuel mixture for the additional ethanol. Not knowing would keep me away from E15 unless there was absolutely no other choice.

Any water that gets into E0 gasoline will immediately separate and the water will drop to the bottom of the tank where it might cause corrosion. E10 will absorb around 0.4% water before you get "phase separation". On one hand, this is good because small amounts of water that get into the tank will dissolve in the fuel and be burned without issue. On the other hand, E10 is more likely to actually absorb water vapor from humid air so it helps if you keep the tank fuller to reduce air contact. E15 will co-dissolve up to twice as much water as E10 before separation occurs. Water is more corrosive toward metal than gasoline is but I'm not sure about it becoming acidic over time. (I keep my tank full to the top during off-season storage. Not sure if it makes a difference, but I also use a commercial fuel stabilizer for extended storage.)

Note: When water separates from E0 gas, there is a clean and complete separation. E10 and E15 will absorb more water but when you hit the saturation point, you end out with a messy "emulsion" that is more viscous and could be problematic with fuel filters, fuel pump and injectors.

 

[an-guy]

E15 has SLIGHTLY lower BTU/gal than E10, but I'm not sure if you would notice. Even E10 has just three percent lower energy density compared to E0 (no ethanol).
My biggest concern is whether the use of higher alcohol content might damage plastic or rubber fuel system components - pump, gaskets, hoses, fuel gauge, connectors etc. Not to mention whether the ECU can properly compensate the fuel mixture for the additional ethanol. Not knowing would keep me away from E15 unless there was absolutely no other choice.

Any water that gets into E0 gasoline will immediately separate and the water will drop to the bottom of the tank where it might cause corrosion. E10 will absorb around 0.4% water before you get "phase separation". On one hand, this is good because small amounts of water that get into the tank will dissolve in the fuel and be burned without issue. On the other hand, E10 is more likely to actually absorb water vapor from humid air so it helps if you keep the tank fuller to reduce air contact. E15 will co-dissolve up to twice as much water as E10 before separation occurs. Water is more corrosive toward metal than gasoline is but I'm not sure about it becoming acidic over time. (I keep my tank full to the top during off-season storage. Not sure if it makes a difference, but I also use a commercial fuel stabilizer for extended storage.)

Note: When water separates from E0 gas, there is a clean and complete separation. E10 and E15 will absorb more water but when you hit the saturation point, you end out with a messy "emulsion" that is more viscous and could be problematic with fuel filters, fuel pump and injectors.

Yeah, good to know about the difference between E0, E10, and E15. I did know about how it's not good for your rubbers/plastics/gaskets etc. I understand the concept that if I save 500$ a year on gas for E15 and then have to replace 500$ in parts because of the extra 5% ethanol, obviously I just lose a bunch of time. I'm more or less just trying it. I don't really care about any power loss, "slightly" out of 120hp....

With as many miles as you have on your FJRs, I doubt your bikes sleep long. My bikes aren't lucky enough to sleep the winter away, I just did my 3 hour commute in mid 20s. No plan of stopping. But if I did I would 1000% get some kind of high quality (ideally zero ethanol) gas with some stabilizer. But on my bike I usually blow all the gas back out of the tail pipe within 24 hours of pumping it.

Not that this is TacomaWorld, but If anything is to worry about for me personally, It's my truck. I don't drive it much, maybe 20 miles a month. I usually wait for the local Sheetz (gas station chain in PA) to run a promotion for E15 at 2$ a gallon every like 3 months and fill it up and slowly use it up. Basically, E15 sits in my truck for months at a time. I really hope Toyota knew what they were doing and used appropriately durable elements for the 5% extra ethanol. Or sealed the fuel system enough that water cannot get in very well.

 

[an-guy]

Ahhh 22. We've all been there. At 22 I didn't have the proverbial 2 nickels to rub together. Totally understand.

Where in Penna you located? If you're near south Jersey and ever need a hand wrenching let me know.

Thanks for the offer. I'm between Chambersburg PA and Williamsport PA, weekly

Really, the only things I'm considering soon that may be out of my league is the good old CCT and valve check/adjustment combo. When RossKean welcomed me to the site, he said this:
"Check out cam chain tensioner to make sure it has the upgraded (blue dot or green dot) version."

I can do that. I can probably tell what color dot is on a piece of metal. But....where is it? Lol. I can't find much conclusive help on finding it, and I occasionally hear funny noises from the bike. I am the type to worry about stuff like that, because most of my rides are 2-3 hours from home...

The valve check I have about 15k miles to learn how to do it or find someone to help or pay my usual mechanic, but if I have to replace the CCT, might as well do both at the same time.

 

[RiderJoe]

To locate the CCT, lift up the front of the tank, then look down behind the engine on the right side next to the frame. The link here will show you the CCT:
Thread 'Well crap, no green dot CCT (2008)'
https://www.fjrforum.com/threads/well-crap-no-green-dot-cct-2008.180887/
The dot you need to look for should be on the top of the CCT on the flange against the engine. So on the photo in the link, it should be on the flange on front of the divet below the arrow. Unfortunately the dot is missing on the linked thread too, but a picture on RevZilla shows it clearly.
https://www.partzilla.com/product/y...AM CHAIN TENSIONER,1MC-12210-00-00,-by Yamaha
"CAM CHAIN TENSIONER
1MC-12210-00-00"

 

[RossKean]

I don't really care about any power loss, "slightly" out of 120hp....

Less energy per gallon doesn't necessarily mean less power. Generally means that there will be more fuel consumption to attain the same power.

 

[RossKean]

I can do that. I can probably tell what color dot is on a piece of metal. But....where is it? Lol. I can't find much conclusive help on finding it, and I occasionally hear funny noises from the bike. I am the type to worry about stuff like that, because most of my rides are 2-3 hours from home...

This thread may help
https://www.fjrforum.com/threads/lessons-learned-on-changing-the-cct.136891/
Note that a cam chain failure can result in engine destruction. Generally, there are warning signs well before failure. Can-of-marbles rattling on the right side after startup when engine is cold - this can go on for months (or not)...

 

[sapest]

From my owner's manual:

"Gasohol containing
ethanol can be used if the ethanol content
does not exceed 10% (E10)."

Will it hurt anything? I don't know, but why take a chance? I'd like to think that Yamaha engineers know a thing or two about what fuels are fully compatible with the FJR. They don't sell E15 around here and I don't think I would use it anywhere if there was another choice.

I haven't heard about anyone reporting damage to components, but I also don't recall anyone saying they tried it.

An ignorant thought -
The owners manual warning may have come from Legal. Yamaha may have not bothered to emissions certify E15 fuel.
-Steve

 

[RossKean]

An ignorant thought -
The owners manual warning may have come from Legal. Yamaha may have not bothered to emissions certify E15 fuel.
-Steve

Quite possible, but would you chance it if another option is available? I assume that they know more than I do.

 

[HilltownDave]

No need to lift the fuel tank. Just peek between the silver plastic trim piece at the base of the tank and the colored plastic body trim and the frame itself. The green dot will be obvious. Lack of a green dot lends itself to wondering where the heck it’s supposed to be.

 

[Oldjeep]

An ignorant thought -
The owners manual warning may have come from Legal. Yamaha may have not bothered to emissions certify E15 fuel.
-Steve

Correct, which means that they did not create the fuel map with E15 as a possibility.

Also worth noting that E10/E15 define the maximum amount of corn juice that can be in the fuel. At least with E10/E85, I have read articles where testing showed that the levels were lower than that. So the fact that it works decently on E15 from one station/batch of fuel might not mean that it will work properly with a full 15% .

Friend of mine has a (carburated) 502 powered drag car that he converted to run on E85. He found that the Ethanol levels in that fuel could vary by so much that he had to start buying it from a station that specialized in race gas so that he could actually tune the car to a real 85% alchohol

 

[JQL]

The "E" rating is the maximum amount of ethanol permitted in the fuel. In independent tests, it has been proved to be quite a lot lower than the "E" amount. It is easy to test it for yourself (lots of videos on YouTube).

Depending on the year of your vehicle will depend on whether the rubber or plastic hoses, pipes, gaskets, washers, parts etc. have been changed to ones that won't degrade in ethanol. There were a number of vehicle fires in older vehicles a few years ago around us when E5 and E10 were first introduced.

Most vehicles manufactured in the last 20 years-ish have the newer "non-corrosive" plastics and rubber "items" in contact with fuel.

As previously mentioned, ethanol absorbs water so will migrate to the bottom of the tank making the vehicle harder to start or to run "rough" until the contaminated ethanol is used up. This will also slightly lower the octane rating of the non ethanol fuel left in the tank. Ethanol has a higher octane rating than petrol.

As an aside, an acquaintance of mine, whom I've known for more than 12 years, is a mechanic at a Honda Main Dealer. He recommends that you do not use E10 or above even in newer vehicles.

 

[RossKean]

As previously mentioned, ethanol absorbs water so will migrate to the bottom of the tank making the vehicle harder to start or to run "rough" until the contaminated ethanol is used up.

Yes, ethanol absorbs water but the E10 mix will allow water to dissolve completely into the blend until (at equilibrium) water concentration is around 0.4%. (Some references say up to 0.7%.) Until you hit this concentration, there is no separation. 0.4% is around a half ounce of water per US gallon of fuel or over three ounces in a full tank of gas. (Of course, it assumes complete and thorough mixing. Three ounces of water dumped into a tank would go directly to the bottom since it would not have the opportunity to attain equilibrium with the fuel. Mix it long enough and it would eventually dissolve.)
If you get separation, either the fuel wasn't dry to begin with or you have exposed the fuel to VERY humid air or a LOT of water has condensed into your tank. Unlikely, if you keep the tank full to minimize exchange of air. As mentioned, a small amount of water or water-ethanol mix might burn off OK, although the engine would run a bit rough. A large slug would stall the motor.

 

[an-guy]

Thanks @HilltownDave, @RossKean, and @RiderJoe. I can't see it without removing plastics but I'll take it apart soon to check. It's not a very loud or noticeable or particularly concerning noise. Kindof just sounds like the timing/cam chain noise. The downside of a quiet bike is you hear every little noise and it can freak you out. At least it does me.

I had read somewhere that E15 is usually like 12% ethanol. The E# just means the maximum allowed.

I can't say I'd run E85 in anything, in normal cars your fuel economy suffers a lot and it's usually the same price as 88 or more expensive.

Also, getting off task here but any cold weather riders? My temp gauge frequently sits at three bars once it gets below 30F. Wondering if my thermostat is stuck open, it usually sits at four bars from 30-75F. My VFR would hold 171F water temp exact to 25F. Wish my 08 had a digital temp readout...