E15 / Unleaded 88 in 2008 FJR1300

[Oldjeep]

The "E" rating is the maximum amount of ethanol permitted in the fuel. In independent tests, it has been proved to be quite a lot lower than the "E" amount. It is easy to test it for yourself (lots of videos on YouTube).

Depending on the year of your vehicle will depend on whether the rubber or plastic hoses, pipes, gaskets, washers, parts etc. have been changed to ones that won't degrade in ethanol. There were a number of vehicle fires in older vehicles a few years ago around us when E5 and E10 were first introduced.

Most vehicles manufactured in the last 20 years-ish have the newer "non-corrosive" plastics and rubber "items" in contact with fuel.

As previously mentioned, ethanol absorbs water so will migrate to the bottom of the tank making the vehicle harder to start or to run "rough" until the contaminated ethanol is used up. This will also slightly lower the octane rating of the non ethanol fuel left in the tank. Ethanol has a higher octane rating than petrol.

As an aside, an acquaintance of mine, whom I've known for more than 12 years, is a mechanic at a Honda Main Dealer. He recommends that you do not use E10 or above even in newer vehicles.

A few years ago? LOL - Minnesota has had ethanol for decades (like 30 years or so). You can hardly get anything but E10 here. The only fuel lines that are still falling apart from ethanol were past their expiration date years and years ago.

 

[Oldjeep]

Also, getting off task here but any cold weather riders? My temp gauge frequently sits at three bars once it gets below 30F. Wondering if my thermostat is stuck open, it usually sits at four bars from 30-75F. My VFR would hold 171F water temp exact to 25F. Wish my 08 had a digital temp readout...

The FJR has a large engine that doesn't need to work very hard. In cooler weather mine runs cooler, even if I keep it up in the 5-6K RPM range.

 

[an-guy]

PS. I'm not concerned about water buildup in my bike, it never sits long at all... I think the most it's ever sat since I got it was three days. If I find water in my tank it's because someone broke in and decided to minorly inconvenience me lol

 

[an-guy]

The FJR has a large engine that doesn't need to work very hard. In cooler weather mine runs cooler, even if I keep it up in the 5-6K RPM range.

Yeah. good point. I'm not concerned, I never ride hard when it's that cold out for obvious reasons. But wanted to hear others experience.

 

[sapest]

Quite possible, but would you chance it if another option is available? I assume that they know more than I do.

No I wouldnt either. Just suggesting the warning may not be be based on mechanical issues/concerns.

-Steve

 

[sapest]

Correct, which means that they did not create the fuel map with E15 as a possibility.

Also worth noting that E10/E15 define the maximum amount of corn juice that can be in the fuel. At least with E10/E85, I have read articles where testing showed that the levels were lower than that. So the fact that it works decently on E15 from one station/batch of fuel might not mean that it will work properly with a full 15% .

Friend of mine has a (carburated) 502 powered drag car that he converted to run on E85. He found that the Ethanol levels in that fuel could vary by so much that he had to start buying it from a station that specialized in race gas so that he could actually tune the car to a real 85% alchohol

Given this statement - (and the comments about the variable % of ethanol)

E15 has SLIGHTLY lower BTU/gal than E10, but I'm not sure if you would notice. Even E10 has just three percent lower energy density compared to E0 (no ethanol).

I wonder that if the fuel map accommodates E10, why it wouldnt also be happy with E15? Again, ignorant speculation.

-Steve

 

[Oldjeep]

Given this statement - (and the comments about the variable % of ethanol)

I wonder that if the fuel map accommodates E10, why it wouldnt also be happy with E15? Again, ignorant speculation.

-Steve

Not that tough to understand. Map built for 10% alcohol max. This like the discussions about towing over max with a truck - yup, might work.

 

[torch]

Interesting discussion. In point of fact, while E85 has less energy by volume, it can allow an engine -- particularly a boosted engine -- to be tuned to make more power than straight gasoline. If it's dry, correct proportions, etc. etc. That's why it is popular in the racing world. And while the gas mileage suffers, the cost can be less than gasoline, especially in this day and age.

As for water contamination due to the hygroscopic nature of alcohol, I see that a lot in marine applications where constant pressure fluctuations combined with the mist coming off the water in the morning leads to pools of water/alcohol in the bottom of the tank. Same can happen with infrequently used small engines such as back-up generators. For years now, I've been dealing with the problem using a Water Worm. That link is for the full length version, but they also make a mini version suitable for small fuel tanks. It's filled with a dessicant that absorbs the water in the bottom of the tank. It can be removed, dried and reused indefinitely.

A word of caution though: removing the water also removes the alcohol bonded to the water, which in turn lowers the knock resistance of the remaining fuel. Depending on the engine's requirements, it may be advisable to use premium fuel so the octane rating of the resulting supply is not reduced too far.

 

[RossKean]

Interesting discussion. In point of fact, while E85 has less energy by volume, it can allow an engine -- particularly a boosted engine -- to be tuned to make more power than straight gasoline. If it's dry, correct proportions, etc. etc. That's why it is popular in the racing world. And while the gas mileage suffers, the cost can be less than gasoline, especially in this day and age.

E85 (85% ethanol) is another whole ballgame. The ethanol thing is a strange mixture of economics and politics and I would question that it is really cheaper (especially on an energy content basis) compared to gasoline. Very much dependent upon farm and manufacturer subsidies, commodity pricing, taxes etc., weighed against political favor and desire for energy self-sufficiency in transportation fuels. Depends on how you do the math - not a simple formula.

Also in the equation is renewable (ethanol) vs non-renewable (petroleum) resources although ethanol production (fertilizer manufacture, farming, fermenting, distillation, purification) is very energy intensive. On one hand, it employs a bunch of people and on the other it removes huge tracts of arable land from food/animal feed production. Who knows how these economics will shift as oil availability dwindles and fuel prices rise? Ethanol has another advantage as an anti-knock agent. Less environmentally damaging than tetraethyl lead, MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) and MMT (methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl).

In any case, it appears that we are stuck with ethanol in gasoline at this point and for the foreseeable future . While many manufacturers say 10% maximum, E15 appears to be gaining traction in many areas. I'll stay with the E10 long as there is any choice and would happily switch back to E0 if it was readily available.

(Note: Trying to NOT turn this into a political discussion although any talk related to energy economics (fossil fuels, hydroelectric, wind, solar and nuclear) has significant environmental, sustainability, and political components.)

 

[FJR Flyer]

To locate the CCT, lift up the front of the tank, then look down behind the engine on the right side next to the frame. The link here will show you the CCT:
Thread 'Well crap, no green dot CCT (2008)'
https://www.fjrforum.com/threads/well-crap-no-green-dot-cct-2008.180887/
The dot you need to look for should be on the top of the CCT on the flange against the engine. So on the photo in the link, it should be on the flange on front of the divet below the arrow. Unfortunately the dot is missing on the linked thread too, but a picture on RevZilla shows it clearly.
https://www.partzilla.com/product/yamaha/1MC-12210-00-00#:~:text=Sign Up-,CAM CHAIN TENSIONER,1MC-12210-00-00,-by Yamaha
"CAM CHAIN TENSIONER
1MC-12210-00-00"

Might have a blue dot, as well. I think the first 'upgraded' CCT was the blue dot, then the green dot.

 

[an-guy]

E85 (85% ethanol) is another whole ballgame. The ethanol thing is a strange mixture of economics and politics and I would question that it is really cheaper (especially on an energy content basis) compared to gasoline. Very much dependent upon farm and manufacturer subsidies, commodity pricing, taxes etc., weighed against political favor and desire for energy self-sufficiency in transportation fuels. Depends on how you do the math - not a simple formula.

Also in the equation is renewable (ethanol) vs non-renewable (petroleum) resources although ethanol production (fertilizer manufacture, farming, fermenting, distillation, purification) is very energy intensive. On one hand, it employs a bunch of people and on the other it removes huge tracts of arable land from food/animal feed production. Who knows how these economics will shift as oil availability dwindles and fuel prices rise? Ethanol another advantage as an anti-knock agent. Less environmentally damaging than tetraethyl lead, MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) and MMT (methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl).

In any case, it appears that we are stuck with ethanol in gasoline at this point and for the foreseeable future . While many manufacturers say 10% maximum, E15 appears to be gaining traction in many areas. I'll stay with the E10 long as there is any choice and would happily switch back to E0 if it was readily available.

(Note: Trying to NOT turn this into a political discussion although any talk related to energy economics (fossil fuels, hydroelectric, wind, solar and nuclear) has significant environmental, sustainability, and political components.)

i just wanted cheaper gas mang.

Haha jk. This is pretty insightful. I have a friend who sells corn seed, says ethanol gas definitely lead to an increase in food prices. Guessing that's one of the reasons why a lot of people don't like it. I also know ethanol is more or less what lead to carbed engines to not be able to be let sit.

Also, E0 is not available around me. When I do see it on my travels, it's usually close to $5 a gallon.

 

[FJR Flyer]

Until recently, E0 was not readily available in MD. Just starting to see it locally, at about twice the price. I get a couple 5 gal cans full for the mowers, trimmers, generator, etc.

 

[Geezer]

I know nothing about the chemistry and reactions of the various fuels, but I do read the manual when I buy a piece of equipment and follow what it says in order to protect my investment. That said, most of my small engines with carburetors get corn free high octane gas because it works well and never gives me trouble starting the engines after sitting for months. I use high octane because that is the only grade of corn free fuel available in my part of the world. However, my Stihl chainsaw manual specifically says to not use corn free fuel because whatever additive is used instead of alcohol may be harmful.

I have never had an issue using E10 in a fuel injected engine. I never tried E15 and I don't remember ever seeing it at the pump in my state.

 

[an-guy]

I'm definitely not telling or recommending anyone switch to E15 on anything, I know the manual says not to. Just wondering if anyone had tried it and reporting that I have been on it for thousands of miles. If I get to go through and replace parts then I'll report that in too and you guys can laugh at me.

 

[Dan Cooper]

My observation is the Casey's Gas Stations (may not be in all areas) are selling E15 fuel labeled as "Unleaded 88" for a few cents less per gallon without labeling the pumps as E15. Other stations may be doing something similar. Very misleading and probably leads to mis-fueling in engines not rated for E15.
E15 fuel is safe for vehicles labeled for it and for flex-fuel vehicles labeled for E85. Not recommended or safe for engines labeled for E0 or E10, assuming the full 15% ethanol.

dan

YMMV

 

[GearHeadGrrrl]

I started fueling my BMW F800S with E20 or E30 at the blender pumps because in the rural areas I ride the 89 octane it requires wasn't available. Octane goes up about 2 for every 10% of ethanol added to the blend, so E20 was 89 octane and met the octane spec. That bike with the same exact engine and fuel system was sold in Brazil where E25 is the required motorcycle fuel, so no problems there. However, my Super Tenere's fuel system shows a few different part numbers in the fuel system between the US and Brazilian versions, so in picking fuels I don't stray far from E10, and E15 is probably within the margin of error.

 

[RossKean]

I started fueling my BMW F800S with E20 or E30 at the blender pumps because in the rural areas I ride the 89 octane it requires wasn't available. Octane goes up about 2 for every 10% of ethanol added to the blend, so E20 was 89 octane and met the octane spec. That bike with the same exact engine and fuel system was sold in Brazil where E25 is the required motorcycle fuel, so no problems there. However, my Super Tenere's fuel system shows a few different part numbers in the fuel system between the US and Brazilian versions, so in picking fuels I don't stray far from E10, and E15 is probably within the margin of error.

My 2017 BMW F700GS owner's manual is very specific about maximum 10% ethanol. It also specifies midgrade or premium fuel unless you have had the ECU optionally remapped for regular (with subsequent small losses in fuel economy and power). I have also ridden in rural areas where higher octane fuel is not available and haven't had issues using regular, although I try not to flog it too much. We don't have blender pumps that allow you to choose amount of ethanol and I don't think I would use more than 10% unless I had to (BMW or FJR).

 

[an-guy]

My observation is the Casey's Gas Stations (may not be in all areas) are selling E15 fuel labeled as "Unleaded 88" for a few cents less per gallon without labeling the pumps as E15. Other stations may be doing something similar. Very misleading and probably leads to mis-fueling in engines not rated for E15.
E15 fuel is safe for vehicles labeled for it and for flex-fuel vehicles labeled for E85. Not recommended or safe for engines labeled for E0 or E10, assuming the full 15% ethanol.

dan

YMMV

Sheetz, our PA based gas station, has it listed as Unleaded 88 as well, but has this disclaimer at the top.

Note the disagreement between vehicle OEMs and the government mandated warning disclaimer thing. Most 2001 era passenger vehicles say E10 is the max. Heck, a lot of new passenger vehicles still say that.

 

[Oldjeep]

I know nothing about the chemistry and reactions of the various fuels, but I do read the manual when I buy a piece of equipment and follow what it says in order to protect my investment. That said, most of my small engines with carburetors get corn free high octane gas because it works well and never gives me trouble starting the engines after sitting for months. I use high octane because that is the only grade of corn free fuel available in my part of the world. However, my Stihl chainsaw manual specifically says to not use corn free fuel because whatever additive is used instead of alcohol may be harmful.

I have never had an issue using E10 in a fuel injected engine. I never tried E15 and I don't remember ever seeing it at the pump in my state.

I have noticed that Stihl equiment is super sensitive to fuel - which is crazy for something that runs on oil/gas. Thankfully the Husqvarna stuff will run on bacon grease

 

[Oldjeep]

Our local Holiday stations are the same - the Super 88 is labeled very clearly as E15, with a bunch of disclaimers