Engine "Break-in" questions

[DiggerDr.]

Wow, you started this thread and after 58 posts you gave yourself the answer. Good job.

 

[bergmen]

there was a report in one of the moto mags about a visit by the staff to the Yamaha factory. They witnessed brand new XS1100s coming off the assembly line and the first test was to put it on a dyno and run WFO for 30 seconds. If the engine didn't produce power within an acceptable range it went back to a repair station to find what was wrong.

I'm sure that you did see that report in that magazine. It probably did say what you remember. They may have even actually seen that happen, and it may have actually been a zero mile motorcycle. I seriously doubt that they would (or could) do that to a new bike and then still sell it as new.

Would also be interested in a link to or photo of an owners manual that has a recommendation to accelerate at full throttle during the initial break-in period. I have never seen such a thing and am always anxious to learn something new.

I really don't care if you believe me or not, I know what I read. I was flabbergasted to read that this is how they treated brand new motorcycles (all of them) coming off the assembly line. I showed the article to my Dad and he was mystified as well. BTW, this was back in 1979-1980 or so, don't have a copy of the rag.

Dan

 

[Tracer42]

Actually in the beginning of this post you'll see that someone else did. I chose to not point that out but help you in my reply. Thank you for pointing out a good job and in return I'll point out the lack of attention to detail could have saved us both time.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

I'm sure that you did see that report in that magazine. It probably did say what you remember. They may have even actually seen that happen, and it may have actually been a zero mile motorcycle. I seriously doubt that they would (or could) do that to a new bike and then still sell it as new.

Would also be interested in a link to or photo of an owners manual that has a recommendation to accelerate at full throttle during the initial break-in period. I have never seen such a thing and am always anxious to learn something new.

I really don't care if you believe me or not, I know what I read. I was flabbergasted to read that this is how they treated brand new motorcycles (all of them) coming off the assembly line. I showed the article to my Dad and he was mystified as well. BTW, this was back in 1979-1980 or so, don't have a copy of the rag.

Dan

I am pretty sure you misunderstand what Fred is saying. He is insinuating (I think!) that Yamaha was putting on a show for the motojournalists. It is not unheard of for a company and its engineers to mislead the public, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad. I can picture the engineers laughing at the stupid, know it all writers that make their living telling everyone what the engineers did wrong and what they should have done with a particular motorcycle.

Not saying the writers are stupid, just saying that I bet those engineers get pissed reading the articles that only seem to criticize their work.

Actually in the beginning of this post you'll see that someone else did. I chose to not point that out but help you in my reply. Thank you for pointing out a good job and in return I'll point out the lack of attention to detail could have saved us both time.

You are going to have to lighten up. This is a rough crowd if you have thin skin. Let it roll off your back and you will be fine.

You should be happy. Probably your first ever thread went instantly NEPRT and YOU did not get flamed for it. You kicked open a lively and enlightening discussion and got the whole crowd fired up. I almost want to congratulate you.

I won't because a simple search would have revealed other threads that look a whole lot like this one.

 

[Tracer42]

I hear ya brother. 22 years in the chAir Force and two wars under my belt has made me a little thick or one might say crazy but hey I definitely admit to being very green at this forum stuff. We all have our own opinion but thing that's common? Our brotherhood, passion to ride and our FJR.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

This is a great forum and a great group of people. Even when they do not agree with me, I have great respect for them. Obviously, I like them better when they agree with me, but you can't win 'em all.

You will do fine. And FWIW (For What It's Worth), I enjoyed this thread immensely.

I just hope no one actually tried adding 2 cups of Butter Flavor Crisco to their FJR's oil. It has been known to make the skin of at least one attractive woman very slippery and her clothes fall off almost every time she gets around my FJR.

Okay, I made that last part up too. But this is the internet, somebody will be dumb enough to believe it.

 

[Tracer42]

LMBO! (Laughing my butt off). Thank you and everyone who has commented on my NEPRT.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Now that you two clowns are done kissing, maybe we can get back to breaking in engines...Maybe.

I'm a follow the manual kind of guy. I break in my engines, guns, whatever, according to what the manufacturer says, and so far it hasn't hurt me. However, I do wonder about stuff sometimes, specifically, the differences in engines.

My 2007 FJR required the 600 mile service and what...1000 mile break-in before going WFO? It's been so long, I don't remember. However, when we bought our new Yamaha Jet Ski a couple years ago, the break-in period was ONE hour, and then WFO was all grins. One hour on a MC is 60 miles, +/-, so how or why is the jet ski engine ready to run that soon? No idea, but what I do know is I spend a lot of time on that ski thinking about how I could spoon that motor into my FJR. That jet ski pulls like a train...a 180 horse 1800CC power plant in my FJR would make me smile, but the mileage would suck. I guess it's a trade.

Either way, all this engine stuff is why I prefer to buy my vehicles new. That way, I know how they have been broken in and know they were cared for, according to what makes me feel better from day one.

Ok RFH...You two can go back to kissing.

 

[Fred W]

I'm sure that you did see that report in that magazine. It probably did say what you remember. They may have even actually seen that happen, and it may have actually been a zero mile motorcycle. I seriously doubt that they would (or could) do that to a new bike and then still sell it as new.

Would also be interested in a link to or photo of an owners manual that has a recommendation to accelerate at full throttle during the initial break-in period. I have never seen such a thing and am always anxious to learn something new.

I really don't care if you believe me or not, I know what I read. I was flabbergasted to read that this is how they treated brand new motorcycles (all of them) coming off the assembly line. I showed the article to my Dad and he was mystified as well. BTW, this was back in 1979-1980 or so, don't have a copy of the rag.

Dan

I am pretty sure you misunderstand what Fred is saying. He is insinuating (I think!) that Yamaha was putting on a show for the motojournalists. It is not unheard of for a company and its engineers to mislead the public, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad. I can picture the engineers laughing at the stupid, know it all writers that make their living telling everyone what the engineers did wrong and what they should have done with a particular motorcycle.

Not saying the writers are stupid, just saying that I bet those engineers get pissed reading the articles that only seem to criticize their work.

@bergman - Yes, RFH got what I meant.

I tried to make it clear that I did not doubt you (I was not being facetious) and the magazine may have written that, but that doesn't mean it was true. My apologies for not making it more clear.

Also, the line about seeing a copy was not directed to your magazine article. It was in reply to the earlier post saying that their Dodge Caravan owners manual said to go WFO during the break-in. I imagine a Dodge Caravan Owners manual is available online somewhere...

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Now that you two clowns are done kissing, maybe we can get back to breaking in engines...Maybe.
I'm a follow the manual kind of guy. I break in my engines, guns, whatever, according to what the manufacturer says, and so far it hasn't hurt me. However, I do wonder about stuff sometimes, specifically, the differences in engines.

My 2007 FJR required the 600 mile service and what...1000 mile break-in before going WFO? It's been so long, I don't remember. However, when we bought our new Yamaha Jet Ski a couple years ago, the break-in period was ONE hour, and then WFO was all grins. One hour on a MC is 60 miles, +/-, so how or why is the jet ski engine ready to run that soon? No idea, but what I do know is I spend a lot of time on that ski thinking about how I could spoon that motor into my FJR. That jet ski pulls like a train...a 180 horse 1800CC power plant in my FJR would make me smile, but the mileage would suck. I guess it's a trade.

Either way, all this engine stuff is why I prefer to buy my vehicles new. That way, I know how they have been broken in and know they were cared for, according to what makes me feel better from day one.

Ok RFH...You two can go back to kissing.

Okay Mr. Meanness, since you are obviously feeling left out, YOU can kiss my fat, hairy butt.

Actually, you can't but you get the idea.

A jet ski? I thought you lived in the desert? And I bet it gets irritating every time you get in the water. All those folks staring at you, trying to get you to jump and do tricks, while they all yell, "Free Willy!" I can see why you need a jet ski with a huge engine.

Didn't you just buy a new Fire Engine?

What did the manual say about a break in on that monster?

And yes, my mean friend, I do agree with you. I like to buy new so I can be the one to break it in. And I do it by the manual.

Now, about that kiss...

 

[C&C]

Here's a link Fred. I couldn't find a manual for my '95 but did for the '04 Caravan: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/40530/Dodge-2004-Caravan.html?page=70#manual

 

[Redfish Hunter]

So, help me understand this one.

You don't trust the break in procedure in the Yamaha owner's manual but you DO trust the break in procedure in the Dodge owner's manual.

At least the Dodge owner's manual agrees with that Motoman guy, so we have some agreement there.

I can sure see why it would be appealing to the new owner of a Dodge minivan to be able to make some WOT acceleration runs. Those Dodge Caravans are a real hoot to drive and the acceleration can be thrilling. They are a lot like the FJR...Except completely different.

 

[Fred W]

Thanks for the link C&C. So it does appear that Chrysler believes it is a good idea to go full throttle on at least their Dodge Caravan engines, which does give some support to Motoman's theories. That is the first I've seen of a manufacturer recommending such a thing.

I wonder why it is not more universally supported? Maybe what it comes down to is that: nothing you do will make much of a difference?

 

[bergmen]

I am pretty sure you misunderstand what Fred is saying. He is insinuating (I think!) that Yamaha was putting on a show for the motojournalists. It is not unheard of for a company and its engineers to mislead the public, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad. I can picture the engineers laughing at the stupid, know it all writers that make their living telling everyone what the engineers did wrong and what they should have done with a particular motorcycle.

Not saying the writers are stupid, just saying that I bet those engineers get pissed reading the articles that only seem to criticize their work.

You could very well be correct (my misunderstanding what Fred said). As I recall, the visit by the authors to the major Japanese motorcycle manufacturers was a rare (if not unprecedented) event. Up to that point, the major assembly lines were behind closed doors and not open to anyone outside the respective companies. I believe they may have visited each of the "Big Four" but I only remember the details of the Yamaha assembly line visit since I was a new owner of a 1979 XS11 at the time. I can't remember which magazine published the report since I subscribed to at least five monthly magazines at the time (Motorcyclist, Cycle, Cycle World and I forget the rest).

My recollection is that, as a specified step of the test at the conclusion of final assembly, each XS11 was run WFO on a dyno for 30 seconds to measure and record power output levels. It is just as easily possible that this was just a demonstration for the visiting "round eyes" and not a regular procedure. I can't be sure. It would be nice to find a copy of the mag with the article just for old time's sake.

Dan

 

[bergmen]

Thanks for the link C&C. So it does appear that Chrysler believes it is a good idea to go full throttle on at least their Dodge Caravan engines, which does give some support to Motoman's theories. That is the first I've seen of a manufacturer recommending such a thing.
I wonder why it is not more universally supported? Maybe what it comes down to is that: nothing you do will make much of a difference?

Way back in the day (late 60s) we did a garage ring & valve job on our Ford V-8 pickup truck engine (the old "Y" block). Instructions that came with the new set of rings said in order to seat the rings properly to accelerate from 50mph to 70mph at wide open throttle ten times in high (three speed column shift transmission).

Dan

 

[Spork]

My recollection is that, as a specified step of the test at the conclusion of final assembly, each XS11 was run WFO on a dyno for 30 seconds to measure and record power output levels. It is just as easily possible that this was just a demonstration for the visiting "round eyes" and not a regular procedure. I can't be sure. It would be nice to find a copy of the mag with the article just for old time's sake.
Dan

I've seen this in another documentary too (BMW i would like to say). Being a quality assurance guy for a living I think they might grab a bike from a lot of production for Quality Control. If the bike meets specs, then the whole lot is approved, if it doesn't the whole lot is placed on hold until they can find the extent of the problem.

To me this is completely normal for manufacturing, but I work in food so not apples to apples.

 

[ionbeam]

...My recollection is that, as a specified step of the test at the conclusion of final assembly, each XS11 was run WFO on a dyno for 30 seconds to measure and record power output levels...

...I think they might grab a bike from a lot of production for Quality Control. If the bike meets specs, then the whole lot is approved...To me this is completely normal for manufacturing, but I work in food so not apples to apples.

OMG, to a carpenter the whole world looks like nails, right down to the analogies

In volume manufacturing of parts and equipment there is lot sampling with the lot sample size in part determined by production volume. This is generally called AQL sampling -- Acceptable Quality Limits, by random sampling of a certain number within the lot they can determine the general quality of the whole lot. I would hope this was done by the engine manufacturer before a very expensive and difficult to install and replace part like the engine is already installed in a frame. A motorcycle that is fully assembled would make more sense to test drive the system as a whole instead of torturing just the power train on the dynamometer.

There used to be oil commercials where they would run an engine with the oil companies fantabulous oil product, then drain the engine and run it without oil to demonstrate that even a slight residual film of their oil would allow the engine to run ok. After running the engine without oil engineers would test the engine and declare that it works and runs like new. What they don't say is after actually tearing the engine down there was extensive damage to bearings and other internal parts -- but it ran just fine. How much longer it would run just fine was never mentioned. Whipping a green engine on a dyno without any break-in first certainly has the possibility of doing hidden damage that would endanger long term reliability even though it 'ran just fine' after the dyno test.

 

[rushes]

As a machinist I break in easy.

There's a lot of metal parts in the whole assembly getting rubbed together for the first time.

I think the old days of needing to "seat the rings" are gone.

*edit*

That sounded authoritative didn't it?

 

[Spork]

...My recollection is that, as a specified step of the test at the conclusion of final assembly, each XS11 was run WFO on a dyno for 30 seconds to measure and record power output levels...

...I think they might grab a bike from a lot of production for Quality Control. If the bike meets specs, then the whole lot is approved...To me this is completely normal for manufacturing, but I work in food so not apples to apples.

OMG, to a carpenter the whole world looks like nails, right down to the analogies

In volume manufacturing of parts and equipment there is lot sampling with the lot sample size in part determined by production volume. This is generally called AQL sampling -- Acceptable Quality Limits, by random sampling of a certain number within the lot they can determine the general quality of the whole lot. I would hope this was done by the engine manufacturer before a very expensive and difficult to install and replace part like the engine is already installed in a frame. A motorcycle that is fully assembled would make more sense to test drive the system as a whole instead of torturing just the power train on the dynamometer.

There used to be oil commercials where they would run an engine with the oil companies fantabulous oil product, then drain the engine and run it without oil to demonstrate that even a slight residual film of their oil would allow the engine to run ok. After running the engine without oil engineers would test the engine and declare that it works and runs like new. What they don't say is after actually tearing the engine down there was extensive damage to bearings and other internal parts -- but it ran just fine. How much longer it would run just fine was never mentioned. Whipping a green engine on a dyno without any break-in first certainly has the possibility of doing hidden damage that would endanger long term reliability even though it 'ran just fine' after the dyno test.

Yeah, it's not the same industries so the criteria are much much different. Since I have exactly zero experience in motorcycle manufacture (or vehicle manufacture for that matter), I have no idea if this is a legitimate test, but it makes sense to me that you would test a representative sample of your finished good to make sure it performs adequately along it's entire performance curve against specifications.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

As a machinist I break in easy.There's a lot of metal parts in the whole assembly getting rubbed together for the first time.

I think the old days of needing to "seat the rings" are gone.

*edit*

That sounded authoritative didn't it?

Yes it did. And since it is now on the internet...well it must be true.