EPA wants to increase ethanol to 15%

[charismaticmegafauna]

So, mill the head for higher compression, reprogram the ECU to advance spark, and we lose no economy or maybe even gain some with gasahol? Who will be the first? Seems too easy.

Pure ethanol only has 70% of the energy (BTU's) that straight petroleum gas does. So if your using 15% ethanol, you'd have to richen up (~12%?) to get the same BTUs (power) as pure petroleum gas....

'Fred W': But do engines need to be modified for 15%? Or is it 20%? At what point does this become a requirement?

The next generation of auto engines from FoMoCo are called "EcoBoost" and use 'forced induction' (turbo-charging) which provides higher combustion pressures -- like increased compression.

With enough pressure -- almost anything will burn....

Forced induction enhanced engines can be more efficient, smaller, more powerful, more exciting, etc ....

 

[HotRodZilla]

Since not too many people seem to have much real-world experience with Ethanol or Ethanol powered vehicles, I will add something to this. Take it however you want:

The city of Albuquerque added a bunch of E85 vehicles to its fleet, including some police cars. Then Albuquerque started using the E85 fuel to run those cars. I don't know about the rest of the fleet, but the guys that have the E85 and FlexFuel cars that are using the Ethanol fuel hate their cars. They are having reliabiliy and power issues, and the E85 cars are buring through fuel pumps about every 3,000 miles. I don't know if the pump issues are due solely to the fuel, but word is (unverified) that the E85 cars that are getting more standard gasoline are not having the same issues.

If the cars designed to run this type of fuel are having issues, how are all our other vehicles, FJR included (for Iggy), going to react. I'm thinking a change like this will take years, but look how long it took to get rid of regular leaded gasoline.

 

[Spook]

Why don't we want ethanol in our gas? What are the ill effects?

lower gas mileage, a total waste of our resources for little or no gain. A waste of a food product, a drain on our aquifer and the list goes on

Corn should be used for food or whiskey. It doesn't make any sense to burn up our food stocks on a product that I understand costs more to make than gas.

Interesting I did not know that. I thought like everyone that ethanol was going to be a savior for high gas prices like in Brazil.

Here is an article I found. Clicky

They use sugar cain not corn.

 

[RadioHowie]

They use sugar cain not corn.

OMG!!! Think of all the lost rum!!!

 

[Mizz Bustanut]

OMG!!! Think of all the lost rum!!!

That would be criminal!!

 

[HotRodZilla]

A waste of a food product, a drain on our aquifer and the list goes on

Maybe I'm just picking here, but the corn used for Ethanol is not suitable for eating. Part of the myth that needs to be overcome is that farmers are sending their sweet yellow corn to fuel producers instead of grocery stores. The issue that is present though, is that instead of using the land to produce a food product, they are using it to grow corn that is basically only suitable for ethanol.

They use sugar cain not corn.

Brazil has a pretty good Ethanol program because suger cain makes "better" Ethanol than corn. If I remember right, it also takes less acreage of sugar cain than corn to make make equal amounts of Ethanol.

 

[JRO]

Living in civilized parts, we don't fuel our vehicles with moonshine. That was tried, back when gas went to $4 a gallon. It didn't work well. Moonshine has other uses, of which Yankees don't seem to be aware. It's just not gas.

Those who don't like that idea, can mix nitro in their gasoline, instead of moonshine. If all the world would start using explosives, instead of food products, as fuel additives, then everybody would have enough to eat, even cows, and there would be lotsa moonshine fer ever'body to git drunked-up on, so ever'body would be happy, and there would be no more war, on account'a all the bomb-makin' stuff would be used to make inta gasoline. Peace and vegetarianism would prob'ly end up takin' over, an' maybe ever'body could be bi-sexual, too.

It's a brave new world. I think everybody should run their engines on naphtha.

 

[Aasland]

The ethanol industry exists to support midwestern corn farmers. Don't believe me?

These are the top three goals of the Minnesota Ethanol Program:

1 To build a new market for the state's largest crop (corn).

2 To develop corn processing/ethanol production facilities in Minnesota.

3 To increase the number of New Generation Farmer Coops (NGCs). These businesses were designed to provide farmer members greater direct cash return for their crops.

Still don't beleive me? Here's the MN Dept of Ag website:

https://www.mda.state.mn.us/renewable/ethanol/about.htm

If the goal were to reduce reliance on foreign oil, I would believe it if the US allowed creation or importation of ethanol from non-corn corps. Under pressure from the ethanol lobby, the US dept of agriculture didn't allow the importation of ANY ethanol, and farmers don't get subsidies for switchgrass crops.

I have friends whose parents are farmers in MN and IA. As the prices for ethanol corn went up, they converted their food crops (beans, soybeans, peas, etc) into ethanol corn crops. Farmers are subsidized to grow corn for ethanol and sugar (high fructose corn sugar) but not brocolli, carrots, lettuce, etc. Since farmers get paid more (via the free market and gov't handouts) for growing corn for ethanol and sugar, but not other foodstuffs, is it any wonder that food is getting more expensive?

Brazil is managing because they heavily subsidize the crops that produce ethanol. Time Magazine ran an article two years ago on Brazil. There, the farmers plowed under their crops for ethanol. Since the US did the same, world soybean production has dropped and thus demand went up. The Brazilians reacted to this demand by .. cutting down the rainforests to grow soybeans. The math is simple: More Ethanol == Less Rainforest. Take your pick.

Do you think 20% is a lot of ethanol? Why are we jumping on this now when it has been in the plans for over five years?

https://cornandsoybeandigest.com/news/MN-do...ethanol-092804/

So, we get 20% ethanol when 50% of new vehicles can handle. What about the rest of us?

This stuff is so out in the open that it doesn't even qualify for 'conspiracy' status.

 

[DaveInMn]

Maybe I'm just picking here, but the corn used for Ethanol is not suitable for eating. Part of the myth that needs to be overcome is that farmers are sending their sweet yellow corn to fuel producers instead of grocery stores. The issue that is present though, is that instead of using the land to produce a food product, they are using it to grow corn that is basically only suitable for ethanol.

Not true.

There is two types of corn that are generally grown: sweet corn and "field" (regular) corn (if you don't consider minor types like popcorn, decorative corn, etc).

Sweet corn is grown for direct human consumption; i.e. corn on the cob, frozen and canned corn. It is harvested before it is ripe. That's why it's soft. If it gets too mature, you can then let it fully mature and harvest it like regular field corn and use it as such. That's why some corn farmers (like my brother) just use the big ag planters to seed the last few rows in a field to sweet corn on the edge of a field of regular corn.

Field corn is for everything else: The same regular/field corn that is used for ethanol can/is also used for all processed food products (from corn flakes to cooking oil) for human consumption and livestock feed. It also has other uses such as for heat in corn stoves.

Bottom line is that ethanol definitely competes, thus driving up the price, in the commodities markets with all the producers human food products, animal feed and many other uses...

 

[JRO]

If the goal were to reduce reliance on foreign oil, I would believe it if the US allowed ...

I'd only believe it, if we were building refineries and drilling like crazy all over the place.

Give us ethyl, not ethanol. It was a happier color, the smell was pleasing, and you didn't need catalytic converters.

 

[Phugedaboudet]

now *that's* "change I can believe in"! Refuel once every couple of years whether ya ride or not. Should make for some epic IBA records too!.

Nuclear powered Feej - I like the idea! Gotta go talk to some smart guys I know at work....

 

[Monty]

My cage (2012 Ford Escape with FlexFuel) is equipped to burn the 15% but not my bike. I just ordered several cans of Startron.

 

[PanAmerican]

Ethanol isn't even BREAK EVEN on energy ... once you factor in the fuel used for farming, distillation and fertilizer.

Meanwhile natural gas is easily converted to Methanol. The same vehicles running on E85 (85% Ethanol) can run on M85 (85% Methanol). Methanol can also be used as a additive in gasoline, the same way Ethanol is, to reduce smog.

This post is about the EPA increasing ethanol content to 15% and how it relates to FJR motorcycles and/or their riders. It is not an indictment of any political party and does not reflect decisions one political party may make verses that of the other. It is solely about the scientific issues of ethanol production and how it relates to the FJR riding experience.

 

[LAF]

All I can say is I have taken to using a mixture in a 32 OZ Stabil Marine bottle.

I mix 16 OZ of Stabil Marine and 16 OZ of Ring Free into that 32 OZ squeeze bottle and squeeze 1 OZ into each tank. In addition to this I use Marvel Mystery Oil every few tanks.

The Marvel is about all you can do for top end lube as far as valves and valve guide/seals go. I don't know but I am thinking they are not Viton seals in the heads of the FJR? When you redo heads you always use Viton seals in the heads and it used to cost more. The Marvel at least gives you a shot at combating ethanol degradation of the fuel track, but that is a long shot IMHO, but I try.

I know Viton holds up to 10% Ethanol, not sure on 15%?

I am not to concerned on the cost or the Debate from every angle on Ethanol at all, it IS NOT GOING AWAY!

What I want is the people who are making our vehicles, and I mean ANY vehicle, 2 stroke, four stroke, whatever, have to use a Viton or whatever holds up to even 10% Ethanol, in ANY rubber gasket or seal on the vehicle that comes into contact with gas or oil, and the emission of that burnt gas.

I am not sure how far out auto manufacturers look and plan but sounds like the fuel pump issue mentioned above should be a wake up call?

Above and beyond any of the other issues, economic and otherwise, I know it will swell and gel rubber in concentrations, that I have have never seen any stats or hard fast rules on?

Seems to me if we have to run it, then "they"(Manufactures) should have to build to it!

 

[Bounce]

and also being discussed (the effects) over here:

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=147560&pid=990475&st=0entry990475

i'm curious how the changing of some fundamentals of the fuel mix that can damage existing engines is any different than when they removed lead. the cost to consumers wasn't a concern then either.

the main difference is that this time it's farm subsidies hidden under a different name. instead of direct money from federal coffers that can't do without, now it's mandatory consumption with direct funding by the consumer. all at a time where corn harvest are down due to extended droughts. cost for a gallon of gas can't do anything but go up in that scenario.

 

[edporch]

I grow corn, and I'm STILL AGAINST "gasohol".