ES VS A

[Kitt190]

I solo exclusively but I'm not sure where my next local will be at yet, I'm trying to keep myself west coast if possible (Pac Nor West would be ideal, I loved my time there). However it looks more and more like road condition check, and if that's the case I may pony up the extra funds for the ES. Just means I'll have to save up even more in my repair fund just in case.

 

[faster675]

I think the ES shock is great up to a 360 lb load, after that the sag rates become unacceptable" .... Where did this data come from? . ... Anybody got an owners manual for an ES? does it spec max load .... what does manual say for same year A?

 

[faster675]

owners manual says that A and ES have exactly the same max load ratings

I'm not a mc suspension expert, but wouldn't the sag rates be proportional to spring rates (which would also be proportional to max load ratings? )

 

[Mr_Canoehead]

As a final note this is going to be my primary vehicle as I am finally giving up my car, so good cargo capacity for things like groceries and the like is a must. And as such what are the groups thoughts on the Entrosys AC unit?

I have a CTC-100 which operates on the same principal as the Entrosys - Peltier chip cooling. The issue with these units is that while they will provide cooling, they are very inefficient - down to around 10-20% at max cooling/min temperature. The CTC provides mild cooling but not enough to keep you cool in real heat, while drawing around 10A, which is about the max I would want to pull from the FJR in traffic. It would probably need to pull twice as much power to really be effective. I find that an evaporative vest works better in dry heat and a veskimo would work better in humid heat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

I am in the process of building my own veskimo to work with the cooling vest from the CTC.

Edited to include original question to make response clearer.

 

[MCRIDER007]

owners manual says that A and ES have exactly the same max load ratings
I'm not a mc suspension expert, but wouldn't the sag rates be proportional to spring rates (which would also be proportional to max load ratings? )

The answer is NO and NO. The A and ES may have the same max load ratings because they share the same frame and tires but the rear sag rates will be different for any given weight because the models have different rear linkage ratios and the rear shocks have different spring rates and different base preloads. The ES steering geometry is also slower (compared to the A model) when carrying heavy loads because the ES front forks do not have any way to lower the front ride height to help compensate for excessive rear sag.

 

[faster675]

Thanks for the info. ....... Based on your information, I guess this would tell me that I will have to get an A, and take a trip to gp suspension (just like i did on my '05) .... With the sag "becoming unacceptable" on the ES above 360 lbs, that makes me think that I would not be able to ride "sporty" with me, my wife, and our gear. With the GP setup on my '05, I was able to ride at a very comfortable sporty pace, fully loaded. And just to be sure (before I head down to the dealer), other than the suspension, the only other difference with a 2016 A is that it doesn't have the cornering adjusting lights?

 

[MCRIDER007]

Thanks for the info. ....... Based on your information, I guess this would tell me that I will have to get an A, and take a trip to gp suspension (just like i did on my '05) .... With the sag "becoming unacceptable" on the ES above 360 lbs, that makes me think that I would not be able to ride "sporty" with me, my wife, and our gear. With the GP setup on my '05, I was able to ride at a very comfortable sporty pace, fully loaded. And just to be sure (before I head down to the dealer), other than the suspension, the only other difference with a 2016 A is that it doesn't have the cornering adjusting lights?

You get inverted forks on the ES which I think is a significant improvement...and the main reason I upgraded from a 13A to a 14ES. If you have a GP suspension shock upgrade on your 05, your shock could be transferred to a GEN3 A model. My personal opinion, after riding a 13A and a 2008 with the GP Suspension back to back multiple times, is that the GEN3 front forks do not need to be upgraded.

 

[Fred W]

The A and ES may have the same max load ratings because they share the same frame and tires but the rear sag rates will be different for any given weight because the models have different rear linkage ratios and the rear shocks have different spring rates and different base preloads. The ES steering geometry is also slower (compared to the A model) when carrying heavy loads because the ES front forks do not have any way to lower the front ride height to help compensate for excessive rear sag.

What's to stop someone from sliding the upside down ES forks up in the triple clamps a bit? I probably wouldn't do it because of the lost ground clearance, but backing off on the fork preload (if you have one) would do essentially the same thing.

As for the 350 lbs being the max load, when riding 2 up with full bags we are certainly over 350 lbs depending on how much we're carrying (we're 325 lbs together, plus cargo). I feel no problem or significant loss of suspension performance running at that weight.

 

[MCRIDER007]

The A and ES may have the same max load ratings because they share the same frame and tires but the rear sag rates will be different for any given weight because the models have different rear linkage ratios and the rear shocks have different spring rates and different base preloads. The ES steering geometry is also slower (compared to the A model) when carrying heavy loads because the ES front forks do not have any way to lower the front ride height to help compensate for excessive rear sag.

What's to stop someone from sliding the upside down ES forks up in the triple clamps a bit? I probably wouldn't do it because of the lost ground clearance, but backing off on the fork preload (if you have one) would do essentially the same thing.

As for the 350 lbs being the max load, when riding 2 up with full bags we are certainly over 350 lbs depending on how much we're carrying (we're 325 lbs together, plus cargo). I feel no problem or significant loss of suspension performance running at that weight.

I think you could slide the ES forks up in the triple clamps a bit and it probably wouldn't have much effect on ground clearance. I never said that 350 lbs was the max load, I said that I thought that weights higher than 360 lbs were unacceptable (because of excessive sag resulting in too slow of steering). Obviously that is a personal preference. When I did my sag measurements (at a local motorcycle shop and without scales to verify weight), it appeared that a 360 lb load resulted in 53mm of sag and every 6.6 pounds added another 1 mm of sag. The bike will feel fine with 55-65mm of rear sag when it is running in a straight line, it just wants to continue to go straight when you approach a corner, kind of like riding a cruiser.

 

[Fred W]

I was speaking to the published max weight spec of 360 lbs.

I agree that the rear is going tp squat when you load the bike up, and it's going to turn in slower, though at least we can increase the rear ride height somewhat with the preload adjustment of the ES. On my '05 I picked a spring rate and preload for good 2-up, so it was a little too stiffly sprung for my tastes when solo. It's always going to be a compromise when you have widely varying load conditions.

 

[xavier6162]

Just get the ES and be done with it. No second thought or regrets. The looks of the upside down black forks alone are worth it....along with other things not on the A model. If you go 2017 you'll have to get the ES anyway.

 

[Peter in AL]

Options in front of me were a new leftover A at 12500 - 13000, or a gently used ES at 10000

I went with the later gambling that it it would not breakdown and erase the price difference. It also had a tall wind shield which I would have bought otherwise

If price difference doesnt make you choose A over ES (for me it did not for above reason) Id vote ES.

I like the usd fork design in general. Less likely to get gunk in the seals and in theory significantly stiffer. I came from the world of V stroms where either "You absolutely must install a fork brace before you even attempt to ride that thing" or "Oh you fell for the fork brace snake oil sales pitch", applies. With the USD fork bike there is none of this nonsense.

To be honest I really didnt understand so much how suspension set up changes the bike. So ES is a cool gismo that is wasted on me? Not quite. With this particular set up, I can easily experiment with different suspension settings. Run down a bad stretch of road at hard +2, then again at soft -2. Same experiment, except pushing a little through nice curves. Ah that ES is good stuff! Take my nice soft curves for a ride. Set at 2 helmets preload and soft she says "That is so much nicer than the old bike".

I guess you can do all that with a few minutes and some tools on the A bike, but you are already considering a bike with a power windshield. So yea just buy the ES.

 

[Joel S.]

Options in front of me were a new leftover A at 12500 - 13000, or a gently used ES at 10000
I went with the later gambling that it it would not breakdown and erase the price difference. It also had a tall wind shield which I would have bought otherwise

If price difference doesnt make you choose A over ES (for me it did not for above reason) Id vote ES.

I like the usd fork design in general. Less likely to get gunk in the seals and in theory significantly stiffer. I came from the world of V stroms where either "You absolutely must install a fork brace before you even attempt to ride that thing" or "Oh you fell for the fork brace snake oil sales pitch", applies. With the USD fork bike there is none of this nonsense.

To be honest I really didnt understand so much how suspension set up changes the bike. So ES is a cool gismo that is wasted on me? Not quite. With this particular set up, I can easily experiment with different suspension settings. Run down a bad stretch of road at hard +2, then again at soft -2. Same experiment, except pushing a little through nice curves. Ah that ES is good stuff! Take my nice soft curves for a ride. Set at 2 helmets preload and soft she says "That is so much nicer than the old bike".

I guess you can do all that with a few minutes and some tools on the A bike, but you are already considering a bike with a power windshield. So yea just buy the ES.

good points, now wait till you start playing with say hard, then add 1 or subtract 1 and feel the differences.

love my es, in the midwest, wisconsin alphabets our roads are terrible, it's great being able to change on the fly.

local quick check of pricing, some can be found much better than these.

16 FJR 1300 A .... $12299

'15 FJR 1300 ES .... $12999

'16 FJR 1300 ES ... $14699

 

[SunRider]

Has any ES owner ever reported decel wobble ?

If not, then that is a major win in my opinion.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

When the wife will be riding, it takes me 3 minutes to adjust the suspension on my A. When the trip is over, same time to adjust it back to solo settings. I would not be sad if I could do it electronically, but am quite happy with the A model. I plan to trade this bike in at around 110,000, when the warranty expires. If I planned to keep a bike for years past warranty expiry, I'd go with the A. Just me.

 

[jammess]

I've always kind of thought the upside down forks don't in reality perform any differently than standard. They do look sort of cool but functionally? I have my doubts.

 

[Fred W]

USD forks definitely do perform differently than traditional telescopic forks. The primary difference is that on "normal" forks the longest upper tube is the smaller diameter inner one, which is a thin-wall steel tube that flexes significantly. While that flexing can contribute to a more compliant suspension, it detracts from the bikes handling since the steering angles would be constantly varying.

On USD forks the longest upper tube is the outer one, which is a larger diameter, thicker wall alloy tube that is very stiff and will not flex significantly under any expected load. Because it is an aluminum alloy, even though the tubes are bigger, the weight increase is negligible, yet the tube is far stiffer than the same weight steel tube. The lower inner tube is steel, but is short so has less flexing.

Fork internals are essentially the same so it is really the parts that you can see that make the difference.

 

[jammess]

Hi Fred, I wonder if a fork brace would make the two configurations perform more similar?

Also, there is only 6" between the lower triple tree clamp and the lower (outer) fork tube in the standard fork so I can't see that the standard fork will experience flexing anymore than the upside down version. That 6" is measured without any fork compression.

 

[Fred W]

Not really. All that a fork brace can hope to do is to control the torsional flex of the forks, in other words, how much they twist when you turn the handlebars. In reality many fork braces only result in increased stiction as the fork legs are forced to adopt the machined spacing of the brace, which is often not exactly the same as the natural spacing of the legs.

A brace will do nothing about limiting the forward/backward flex of the inner legs due to carrying the weight of the bike and rider over uneven surfaces with that constantly varying load, which a stiffer USD fork will have less of if any.

The inner fork leg will flex over its entire length including up in between the triple clamps to a degree, and also inside of the lower fork leg where it is only held by the bushings. We aren't talking about huge amounts of flexion here, just minute amounts that cumulatively have an effect on the steering.

 

[jammess]

Can't imagine the flexing could be much with the standard forks. I agree with your analysis of increased stiction caused by the machining of the fork brace. I've been thinking about this since I wasted my money on the fork brace so I removed mine this afternoon. I don't think anything that can potentially cause excessive wear to the fork bushings is worth the risk. I'm sure the cause of my deceleration wobble was tire wear and maybe even tread pattern of the Metzler steel belted OEM installed radial tires and I doubt the fork brace helped the condition but the new PR3 tires did the trick.