Ever get scared teaching someone to ride?

[EODSarge]

A co-worker decided she wanted a bike. She's never ridden before, and is about 4'11"; maybe. Many of us told her to get a small displacement used bike and learn on that; get used to riding, and then sell it and buy what she wants. Did she listen? Nope, she bought a Harley Heritage Softail Classic. She did take the MSF course at our urging and passed it. She's dropped it about a dozen times.

Yesterday, she wanted me to follow her around her neighborhood and offer advice. She can't flat-foot the bike; the bars are so high that when she makes a low-speed turn she pushes harder than necessary and the bike wants to dive to the side which scares her, so she ends up going waaaaaaay wide on right-handers; she grabs the front brake with all her fingers when stopping which makes the nose dive and scares her so she creeeeeeps up to stop signs, stops about 20 feet short, and paddle-foots up the stop sign. I've told her to use the rear brake for low-speed stops and maneuvering, to give it a little throttle but not too much when turning from a stop to help it stand up some more and keep it from falling over, trail braking, etc. etc. Following her wobbling around her neighborhood (with my hazards on) took ten years off my life.

I think of myself as a good instructor. I've taught everything from care and feeding of inmates to operations in a hazardous materials environment and everything in-between law-enforcement related. And I know she can take instruction- we took her from a 50% shooter to one that consistently scores in the mid-90's. But I don't really know how to vocalize what I think she should know. She seems to be listening to what I have to say, but I haven't seen any proof that she's trying to follow it. I think she may be too intimidated by the bike to really concentrate on her technique. Then again, she did ignore all the advice about learning on a smaller bike.

Hats off to you MSF instructors. I think I'd rather teach a group of blind parkinson's patients how to shoot than teach someone else how to ride. :dribble:

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

I think I'd rather teach a group of blind parkinson's patients how to shoot than teach someone else how to ride. :dribble:

Thanks for the side-splitting laugh, sarge.

I addressed a similar concern in a different post not too long ago. It would appear that your co-worker has taken on WAY too much bike for her skill level which, as you've pointed out, is impeding her continued skill development. To bad, really, but no one can force her to make good, responsible decisions.

The reason you may not know how to vocalize what you think she should know is that you probably haven't been trained to do so. I couldn't train her, or anyone else, to be a 90% shooter or how to feed an inmate.

Until your co-worker parks her Heritage Softail Classic (and her pride) and starts to practice her new skills on a bike more appropriate for her build and skill level, I don't think there's too much that ANYONE can say that will help her.

 

[Auburn]

+1.

Also encourage her to take the MSF course again. When I taught I had many students who took it year after year in the spring as a tune up before the riding season. At least that will get her on a small bike again to gain her confidance again and maybe see the error of her ways in her current bike choice.

 

[ShawnKing]

Until your co-worker parks her Heritage Softail Classic (and her pride) and starts to practice her new skills on a bike more appropriate for her build and skill level, I don't think there's too much that ANYONE can say that will help her.

Yeah, I think you sit down with her and have a heart to heart that basically says, "I can't teach you anything as long as you are on that bike. And that bike may get you hurt or killed."

 

[Neil San Diego]

She NEEDS to get a smaller bike to get comfortable on. Seriously. REALLY seriously. I don't think anything short of that is going to do her any good. My advice is if she won't listen to that, wish her well and walk away.

Yes, that story gave he the screaming heebie geebies.

 

[fjrchooser]

I agree, she needs to sideline the hog awhile and get right sized, knowlegable and confident before going back to it. She can't be having a very good time right now the way you describe it.

 

[dc1300]

A co-worker decided she wanted a bike. She's never ridden before, and is about 4'11"; maybe. Many of us told her to get a small displacement used bike and learn on that; get used to riding, and then sell it and buy what she wants. Did she listen? Nope, she bought a Harley Heritage Softail Classic. She did take the MSF course at our urging and passed it. She's dropped it about a dozen times.
Yesterday, she wanted me to follow her around her neighborhood and offer advice. She can't flat-foot the bike; the bars are so high that when she makes a low-speed turn she pushes harder than necessary and the bike wants to dive to the side which scares her, so she ends up going waaaaaaay wide on right-handers; she grabs the front brake with all her fingers when stopping which makes the nose dive and scares her so she creeeeeeps up to stop signs, stops about 20 feet short, and paddle-foots up the stop sign. I've told her to use the rear brake for low-speed stops and maneuvering, to give it a little throttle but not too much when turning from a stop to help it stand up some more and keep it from falling over, trail braking, etc. etc. Following her wobbling around her neighborhood (with my hazards on) took ten years off my life.

I think of myself as a good instructor. I've taught everything from care and feeding of inmates to operations in a hazardous materials environment and everything in-between law-enforcement related. And I know she can take instruction- we took her from a 50% shooter to one that consistently scores in the mid-90's. But I don't really know how to vocalize what I think she should know. She seems to be listening to what I have to say, but I haven't seen any proof that she's trying to follow it. I think she may be too intimidated by the bike to really concentrate on her technique. Then again, she did ignore all the advice about learning on a smaller bike.

Hats off to you MSF instructors. I think I'd rather teach a group of blind parkinson's patients how to shoot than teach someone else how to ride. :dribble:

Sarge,

Actually the Heritage is a very easy bike to ride, I wouldn't recommend it as a starter but that's what you have to work with and the bike's not the problem.

My guess is, her biggest problem is where she's looking, watch her head, she's probably looking down when she is coming to a stop. It makes her feel unstable and then she panics and GRABS the brake. If the handlebars aren't square (front wheel straight ahead) she's going down. Same thing with the right hand corners, she has to look where she wants the bike to go BEFORE attempting the turn and keep looking there.

If she doesn't have an engine guard ,tell her to have one installed, she's obsessing on dropping the bike now that she has so many times and that's adding to her stress. It's part psycological and part pragmatic, they're a LOT easier to pick up with an engine guard.

You need to drill into her head "KEEP YOUR HEAD AND EYES UP"! If she took the course, she's heard it before...........repeatedly. Some people have a hard time not looking all around. Take her to an empty parking lot and have her practice stopping on a particular spot keeping her head up until after the bike is completly stopped. Make sure she puts her left leg down as she's stopping.

Practice practice practice.

DC

MSF/Rider's Edge coach

 

[cougar8000]

That is simple. I carry this can with a liquor inside it to my classes. There is nothing that chilled vodka hasn't fixed in my experience. :finger:

Plus what Larry said.

DC,

Heritage might be an easy bike but not for someone who just left an MSF course. She can pick it up a year old Rebel for less then 2k and become a pro in no time. It will save her the precious farkles that will get scratched on the Heritage.

 

[Silver Penguin]

I agree that the big Heritage MAY be an easy bike to ride, for the rider whom it fits but that's not this gal. It takes a lot of experience to be able to handle a bike that is on the big side, for your build. (Trust me - I know this from experience. I have a 26" inseam, very short arms, and I ride an FJR).

Add my comments to those already made, that the lady put the HD aside for a while and build some skills on an itty-bitty bike. Even to this day, I do a lot of slow speed stuff on my 650 and 125, that I wouldn't dare attempt on the FJR, in the hope that I might consolidate those skills, to use on the big bike.

The good time for this rider to move to her Heritage is when her riding has become smooth and effortless on a small bike. She's proved can she can reach a certain level of competence on a small bike, by passing the MSF skills evaluation.

I wish her well, and empathize with her situation. It's not easy being short, and wanting to ride a cool bike.

Jill

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

....that's what you have to work with and the bike's not the problem.
DC

MSF/Rider's Edge coach

You can't possibly be serious! A brand new female rider, under 5 feet tall on a 700+ pound, what, 1400cc bike and you don't think that's a problem!?!?!? :blink:

That's one of a whole host of reasons why I don't recommend Rider's Edge and have ignored the local HD dealer's repeated request to teach for them :nono:

I agree with your "head & eyes up and practice, practice, practice" recommendation, however, that won't come into play until she gets on the right bike. THAT'S the #1 priority.

 

[dj bill]

first off who picks it up for her when it drops,harley rider image overload. my best friend and his wife ride custom harleys,shes about this girls size to.i always have to bring up the rear cuz she scares the **** out of me with her riding skills.lots a duck walking,wide turns even at speed(no clue of countersteering).one day she will be down hard,ask my buddy why stick her with me and he says if i tell her they just fight.while he and my wife take off(her bike is a 750 shadow).

this girl needs to not ride that bike till she can pass the motorcycle safety course on that bike.dont most courses use small cc bikes?

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

dont most courses use small cc bikes?

Usually between 200cc and 250cc....with the exception of Rider's Edge, which uses 500cc bikes. Harley doesn't make anything smaller and apparently they feel that in rider education, promoting their own product is more important than having a new rider learn on a more manageable "rice burner". Course crash statistics indicate otherwise.

 

[cougar8000]

yes, all motorcycle safety courses use small bikes.

Have you talked to her or maybe ask your wife to talk to her since your wife has a smaller bike she might listen to her. You know how ladies stick together. On the other side she might be trying to over spit your wife by out shinning in front of the boys

 

[Scab]

I know what you mean about teaching someone else to ride. Try doing that with your wife! Geez, it makes me a nervous wreck!

Teaching, as everyone who has done it knows, is not an easy task. I requires a break-down of information about things we didn't even realize we knew. And, in my experiences, things that were learned easily myself, or things that came sorta naturally, are the absoulute hardest things to teach someone else. A lot of motorcycle riding is "feel" based informational processing. Now, the sensory input of how something shoud "feel" is a hard thing to explain or teach.

The bike does sound like a poor choice for her. My wife chose a Vulcan 500 that is very low, reasonably balanced, and only weighs 400-450 lbs. (Guessing). This bike has proved to have been a reasonably poor choice. She still wrestles the size and weight. When the physics of the size/weight have beaten her, it has been very discouraging to her. She has seriously considered quiting riding more than once.

The smaller CC bikes are easier simply because of size. I can find forgiveness in mistakes simply because MY size/weight can dominate the size/weight of the bike. Once a threshold is crossed where the new rider cannot dominate the size/weight of the bike, then an intimidating relationship is the result. If you are the intimidated side of the relationship, you cannot be the master.

 

[Bungie]

This one hits sort of close to home for me.

My GF, who'd never been on a bike before last summer, has really taken to it. So much so that she enrolled in the equivalent to MSF course in Canada. She was taught on CB125 and a few dirt bikes. She's about 110lbs and about 5'4". Not a big girl.

She passed as I knew she would.

Now things get a little problematic. She wants her own bike. I've been looking for something in the 400-650cc range for her. Small enough that its not a huge step up for her, but powerful enough to be able to handle the highway. Something that if she drops it in the parking lot, its no great hardship if a mirror or turn signal busts off.

About a month after she passed her course I eyeballed my meanstreak. Its for sale, and I had pulled off the forwards and most of the mods I had done and sold them seperately. Basically, a stock bike. She can reach all the controls comfortably, and even more important can flat foot the bike. So under guise of going for a ride to keep the battery charged, we both hopped on the Streak. I stopped at a freshly paved, empty parking lot. She gave me a look...

Right. I'm gonna let her try the Streak.

Technically, theirs no reason she can't ride it, other than her fear of damaging my bike (she's so smart! LOL). After assuring her she decided to give it a go.

She a had a very hard time getting the bike off the sidestand (625lbs or so). Away she went.. tooling around the parking lot a few times. Except for the weight, she had no problems with the bike.

She pulled up beside me all smiles and grins. We talked for a few minutes and I told her to go have fun in the parking lot. Then she got a little adventerous.. shifting up and down a couple gears. Truthfully, she was doing 1st gear turns in 3rd. As she passed by I told her to kick it down a gear..

A few more laps around the parking lot and you'd never know she was a beginner. The course did good! I was impressed. Then she pulled up beside me once again. A little off balance but she held it up..

Problem. She was still in second gear, the bike chugged and stumbled when she was takinig off again. Over it went!

She had NO chance of holding the bike upright and lacked the experience to deal with it. Not her fault. The bike is flat out to big for her skill level. No harm, no foul. But it scared her that she might hurt the bike. It scared me that she might hurt herself. She needs an intermediate bike. Granted, theirs not much diff between a 450lb bike and 550lb bike. The physics are the same. But their is the psychological to be concerned with.

Anyway, all this being said, she knows she can take the bike out in the parking lot anytime she wants (which is all the time), but SHE also knows the bike is to big for her skill level; she hasn't taken it out since. I'm still looking for a 1st bike for her, and frankly, I have some issues with her riding PERIOD. She has two kids 12 and 9 that need her. If she were compentent in traffic with lots of experience I'd still have issues with it, but I'd sure feel a lot better about it. Turning her loose in traffic without the experience scares the living hell out of me.

 

[MotorToad]

I'll help you vocalize what she needs to learn. "Gee ess fi hunned!" I'm sure the FLJHGHJwhatever is a perfectly easy bike to ride, and I know that the big Hardleys have excellent low-speed handling characteristics, but it ain't the bike for her. Not to learn on and maybe not at all. She's fundamentally doing it wrong; she's obviously intimidated by either the bike, the cost of the bike, the operation of the bike, and/or the fact that she's not already a bad-*** harley-ridin' maniac. I've dealt with a learner girl who passed the MSF and still couldn't get her GS-500 around the parking lot at her apartment complex. She wasn't even a waif-like toy as your future accident victim, she was 5'4" or so and on the swim team in high school. But when her helmet went on and the clutch lever pulled her mind was blank. Even after passing the MSF when left to her own devices she couldn't start the bike, she couldn't stop the bike, she couldn't turn the bike. Like teaching a fish to hit a baseball. "Stop flopping and swing the damn bat!" Anyway, if you've made it this far what I mean is that she might not have the aptitude to ride, and she sure as hell doesn't need to be sacrificing a $20k wad of chrome finding that out.

As for the Rider's Edge course using the B Last, if there's a reason it's harder to learn on than a Rebel 250 or whatever old rat bike the MSF happens to have, it's not because of the raging power of that half-liter air heater.

 

[JRO]

My advice for your 4'11" lady friend:

Use the Softail to attract a man, who can then ride her around on it.

 

[Geezer]

I taught two of my daughters to ride. They learned a lot more from following me and watching how I ride than they did by me trying to tell them what to do. They still like to follow me when we ride together so they can learn from my experience, and they recognize when I make a mistake and we discuss those mistakes when we stop for a break.

 

[exskibum]

But I don't really know how to vocalize what I think she should know.

Simple. It's one of two things. Either:

1. There are some people who should never pilot a motorcycle, and you're one of them.

-or-

2. Unless and until you decide to park the testosterone** based purchase you're trying to ride and decide to listen and implement one of the most important bits of information you have been given but ignored, you are [see number 1 above]. So, acquire and commit to riding a smaller, lighter, less powerful and easier to handle used motorcycle. When you're eligible, take that bike to the Advanced MSF class. When you have passed that, then you and I can do this again with you on your previously parked HD, and I'll tell you if you're ready for it or something in between.

BTW, I believe you on your teaching. I have enjoyed your posts on such things as LIDAR and RADAR.

** Women may have less testosterone than men, but that doesn't make them immune from this problem.