Nitro
Well-known member
I use both with the front of course doing most of the work. I do use the rear a lot when manuvering at low speeds in parking lots and coming down steep turning driveways.
FJR brakes -- using the foot brake
- Thread starter Ken45
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networkguy
Well-known member
Those are all good points. Makes sense about the habit thing. I'll modify my behavior.I agree on the "good practice" for panic stops. Running by the river last week at about 7:30 AM exiting a sweeper at 85-90 mph and OMFG a mule deer.I must say that I use a combination of front and rear brakes in most stopping senarios, because this is simply good practice for those rare cases when a panic stop is required and your brain is already hardwired to the proper technique for full-on braking. Plus, always put both feet on the ground when coming to a complete stop, for one tiny slip on that one foot will have you on the ground before you can say O- Sh--!BAD technique.
edit: Lemme explain. Most of the time, I can anticipate my stop, and downshift well ahead of time and come to a nice slow stop. If Im in a situation where I need to make a quick or sudden stop, its the proper "staged" brake using mostly the front brake. But I honestly dont have too many instances like that. I typically also use my my rear brake only because when I come to a stop I usually dont put both feet down, just my left and keep my right on the brake.
Slowed quick & even looked from where the deer came from to see if there were any more coming, would be a bitch to miss first one & hit the trailer.
What I learned was you do in a panic what you do the 99% of time when there is no panic and that zebra striped blue/grey panties hide caca stains
in an acceptable manner. Many peverts, I mean posters, on this forum probably agree.
Many bikes I've had over the years had overly sensitive rear brakes that were not easy to modulate. The line between not enough, to lock up, was pretty thin so I learned to rely on the front almost exclusively. The FJR in my first bike with linked brakes and ABS and I must say that I am appreciating/enjoying what the rear pedal on this bike brings to the overall stopping ability.
iceaway
Active member
I have an '01 with neither ABS or linked brakes, and I use the front brake 95% of the time. I just don't get a good feel from the rear brake at all. Also a combination of the pedal being a bit too far up (haven't bothered to adjust it yet) and nearly driving off the road a few years back where I managed to start skidding by using a bit too much rear brake...
azitlies
Well-known member
I'll tell you what the MSF teaches, and I'll tell you why.
But before even getting into that... who do you think is the most up to date? with modern motorcycle capabilities? Some Old Wives tale you learned 30 or 40 years ago, or the MSF?
Guys (and Gals of course), the MSF teaches us to use BOTH BRAKES for a reason. They want it to be a HABIT, an INSTINCT, if you will. The point is that we never know when an emergency situation will occur (that's why we call them emergencies, we can't predict them).
And studies have proven that we will go with our instincts in those situations. If your instinct is to use 1 finger on the front brake, that's what you'll do. If your habit is to just use the back brake, that's what you'll do. etc etc etc.
Now of course you'll recognize this isn't your normal braking situation soon enough. But every fraction of a second counts in an Emergency, every fraction. Don't rely on 'Oh, I'll use both in an emergency of course, and I'll use them to their fullest extent'... because you won't. That's not the way it works. If you don't practice BOTH BRAKE Emergency Braking, you'll be too afraid of doing it when the time comes.
You know it's a very very very fortunate thing that we don't have to emergency brake very often. That's a great thing. But I can tell you, because I do it, practicing emergency braking, regularly, is a real serious confidence booster. You'll get to know your limitations, along with the limitations of your bike. And there are added benefits, like being at a place like Deals Gap, with those extreme switchbacks.. You're leaned over hard one way, and you're powering out of the corner, but you're head is turned as it should be and you're looking as far ahead as you can, thus you realize you're going to be leaned in the other direction in just a second!! switchback!!
No problem for you though, no reason to panic, piece of cake for you, you've been practicing emergency braking. Wait for the bike to be straight up, use both brakes, you know you can slow enough for the switchback. No problemo. Now power through the next turn. Have fun!
Do you know why Linked and Integrated braking systems came into existence? That's right, new riders didn't know enough to use both brakes. So they did it for them. Too bad riders just didn't learn to use both brakes instead... it wouldn't be so damn complicated to simply bleed the brakes on some bikes!
You know how these danged emergency situations are guys! Maybe they won't happen for 10 years!! Maybe they happen tomorrow.
But before even getting into that... who do you think is the most up to date? with modern motorcycle capabilities? Some Old Wives tale you learned 30 or 40 years ago, or the MSF?
Guys (and Gals of course), the MSF teaches us to use BOTH BRAKES for a reason. They want it to be a HABIT, an INSTINCT, if you will. The point is that we never know when an emergency situation will occur (that's why we call them emergencies, we can't predict them).
And studies have proven that we will go with our instincts in those situations. If your instinct is to use 1 finger on the front brake, that's what you'll do. If your habit is to just use the back brake, that's what you'll do. etc etc etc.
Now of course you'll recognize this isn't your normal braking situation soon enough. But every fraction of a second counts in an Emergency, every fraction. Don't rely on 'Oh, I'll use both in an emergency of course, and I'll use them to their fullest extent'... because you won't. That's not the way it works. If you don't practice BOTH BRAKE Emergency Braking, you'll be too afraid of doing it when the time comes.
You know it's a very very very fortunate thing that we don't have to emergency brake very often. That's a great thing. But I can tell you, because I do it, practicing emergency braking, regularly, is a real serious confidence booster. You'll get to know your limitations, along with the limitations of your bike. And there are added benefits, like being at a place like Deals Gap, with those extreme switchbacks.. You're leaned over hard one way, and you're powering out of the corner, but you're head is turned as it should be and you're looking as far ahead as you can, thus you realize you're going to be leaned in the other direction in just a second!! switchback!!
No problem for you though, no reason to panic, piece of cake for you, you've been practicing emergency braking. Wait for the bike to be straight up, use both brakes, you know you can slow enough for the switchback. No problemo. Now power through the next turn. Have fun!
Do you know why Linked and Integrated braking systems came into existence? That's right, new riders didn't know enough to use both brakes. So they did it for them. Too bad riders just didn't learn to use both brakes instead... it wouldn't be so damn complicated to simply bleed the brakes on some bikes!
You know how these danged emergency situations are guys! Maybe they won't happen for 10 years!! Maybe they happen tomorrow.
ALDAWG
Well-known member
LOL :lol:I agree on the "good practice" for panic stops. Running by the river last week at about 7:30 AM exiting a sweeper at 85-90 mph and OMFG a mule deer.I must say that I use a combination of front and rear brakes in most stopping senarios, because this is simply good practice for those rare cases when a panic stop is required and your brain is already hardwired to the proper technique for full-on braking. Plus, always put both feet on the ground when coming to a complete stop, for one tiny slip on that one foot will have you on the ground before you can say O- Sh--!BAD technique.
edit: Lemme explain. Most of the time, I can anticipate my stop, and downshift well ahead of time and come to a nice slow stop. If Im in a situation where I need to make a quick or sudden stop, its the proper "staged" brake using mostly the front brake. But I honestly dont have too many instances like that. I typically also use my my rear brake only because when I come to a stop I usually dont put both feet down, just my left and keep my right on the brake.
Slowed quick & even looked from where the deer came from to see if there were any more coming, would be a bitch to miss first one & hit the trailer.
What I learned was you do in a panic what you do the 99% of time when there is no panic and that zebra striped blue/grey panties hide caca stains
in an acceptable manner. Many peverts, I mean posters, on this forum probably agree.
RaYzerman19
Go Wings!
I would recommend not getting into bad habits like primarily using the back brake. The FJR linked rear brake system (ABS or not) is rather benign relative to a Honda ST or Goldwing system. I have had all three and if I was going to use rear brakes first, would prefer the Honda system. It activates the middle pistons (three per side up front on two sets of larger pads) on the front calipers so there is more front brake application when the rear pedal is pushed. Advantageous when going into hot curves or in a panic stop if you are slow to pull the front brake lever, also provides more even pad wear. Mind you, there are guys with the Hondas that don't particularly like so much front braking when rear brake only is used....... to each his own.....
I have gone into sharp curves a bit hot sometimes and try to scrub off some speed while leaning using the rear FJR brake only, and have scared myself a few times because I didn't use any or enough front brake.... maybe partially because of my Honda bad habits..... also using the FJR rear brake primarily will result in the FJR right lower pad set wearing down a lot quicker than the other three sets up front.
The FJR brakes overall though are known to be one of the best stoppers out there, but get into the habit of using a combination of front and rear at all times. When panic time comes, you'll have a better chance of avoiding trouble. Plus, all 5 sets of pads will wear more evenly including your rotors, not overheating or stressing any one particular system. Just seems to make sense. Of course, there are those situations where you want rear only, trail braking technique, e.g., but that should be a small part of your riding experience.
ABS is another subject with many opinions, but I simply wouldn't be without it if you have the option.
I have gone into sharp curves a bit hot sometimes and try to scrub off some speed while leaning using the rear FJR brake only, and have scared myself a few times because I didn't use any or enough front brake.... maybe partially because of my Honda bad habits..... also using the FJR rear brake primarily will result in the FJR right lower pad set wearing down a lot quicker than the other three sets up front.
The FJR brakes overall though are known to be one of the best stoppers out there, but get into the habit of using a combination of front and rear at all times. When panic time comes, you'll have a better chance of avoiding trouble. Plus, all 5 sets of pads will wear more evenly including your rotors, not overheating or stressing any one particular system. Just seems to make sense. Of course, there are those situations where you want rear only, trail braking technique, e.g., but that should be a small part of your riding experience.
ABS is another subject with many opinions, but I simply wouldn't be without it if you have the option.
i have a gen 1 non-abs too. i rotated the foot pedal 1 tooth clockwise on the sprocket to make modulating the rear brake easier. went right back to using both brakes 70/30 f/r ever since because, when the defecation hits the rotary oscillator, you do what you drill.
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Top_Speed1
Panama Canal Crosser
Normal stop for me is Downshift (brakes the rear tire) and some front brake.
Hard stop, use both brakes and after they're initiated I get in my downshifts (gotta love the AE for ease on this one).
Always rode this way, the ABS didn't change my ride style, the AE did make the downshifting a breeze and super quick.
Hard stop, use both brakes and after they're initiated I get in my downshifts (gotta love the AE for ease on this one).
Always rode this way, the ABS didn't change my ride style, the AE did make the downshifting a breeze and super quick.
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Eric L
Not that kind of a doctor
practicing panic stops at progressively higher speeds in a nice big empty parking lot is a great way to learn exactly how important the contribution of both brakes on the FJR is to survival. Also, its scary as shit to brake as hard as you can from 5mph. I cannot imagine it (yet) from 75mph./
azitlies
Well-known member
Well it's great to hear an honest opinion isn't it! I can tell it when I hear it.
Yeah I agree Eric, it is scary as all get out. But that's why we HAVE to practice it! For those that think "Oh, I'll do it when I have to"... no you won't. You'll be too afraid. Guaranteed.
RossKean
Well-known member
Agressive downshifting is probably the only way to make the back tire break loose on stopping with an ABS equipped bike. Use with caution if you are trying to bleed off a lot of speed.
I heard some kind of public service announcement on the radio last week while I was in Helena (Mont.). It was apparently sponsored by Malmstrom Air Force Base just to the north in Great Falls. It was advising riders that there are hazards associated with early season riding, such as residual sand in corners and at intersections, etc. Then the female announcer said, "... so it is a good idea to avoid using your front brake as much as possible..." I about crapped my pants! Where the hell did that garbage come from? Left over from the "I had to lay 'er down" school of motorcycle operation? I need to follow up...
Ross makes a very good point. If you are using aggressive engine braking you are negating any advantage you have of ABS on the rear wheel (if you have it). In a panic situation you'd be much better off concentrating on applying your brakes than worrying about what gear you are in. Down shifts should be made late enough that there is essentially no engine braking.
My old Honda VFR had dual linked (but non-ABS) brakes. The rear pedal actuated the rear brake pistons and also one set of pistons up front. The front left caliper had an auxiliary master cylinder on the trailing side, so that when you cranked on the front brakes it would pressure actuate that aux master cylinder, which was plumbed into the rear brake circuit and would actuate them. They worked OK, but I never really liked them all that much because there are times when you want to drag just the rear brake late into a turn (trail braking) and having the fronts engage in that situation is not desirable. I also like to drag the rear brake when making a U-turn, and braking on loose dirt roads or on wet grass or leaves, where a front lockup can happen easily, is best done gingerly with the rear only.
So really, I think maybe the 2nd gen Yamaha engineers got it exactly backwards. I'd rather that the rear brake worked independently, but that using the fronts would apply a little of the rear brake, with ABS.
On a non-ABS bike, for a 100% panic stop on a clean dry road you will get all of your maximum braking possible from the front wheel, as the rear un-weights and eventually lifts clear of the ground. It's just physics here. Even lightly touching the rear brake at that time would result in a rear wheel lock (talking non-ABS here) with no added braking force. If you were in the formed habit of "always using both the front and rear brakes, all of the time" like the MSF preaches, on that non-ABS bike you will never reach 100% braking force available without locking that rear. If you do have ABS, as all 2nd gens do, then it is pretty much moot because the ABS will just release the rear when it approaches lockup anyway.
My old Honda VFR had dual linked (but non-ABS) brakes. The rear pedal actuated the rear brake pistons and also one set of pistons up front. The front left caliper had an auxiliary master cylinder on the trailing side, so that when you cranked on the front brakes it would pressure actuate that aux master cylinder, which was plumbed into the rear brake circuit and would actuate them. They worked OK, but I never really liked them all that much because there are times when you want to drag just the rear brake late into a turn (trail braking) and having the fronts engage in that situation is not desirable. I also like to drag the rear brake when making a U-turn, and braking on loose dirt roads or on wet grass or leaves, where a front lockup can happen easily, is best done gingerly with the rear only.
So really, I think maybe the 2nd gen Yamaha engineers got it exactly backwards. I'd rather that the rear brake worked independently, but that using the fronts would apply a little of the rear brake, with ABS.
On a non-ABS bike, for a 100% panic stop on a clean dry road you will get all of your maximum braking possible from the front wheel, as the rear un-weights and eventually lifts clear of the ground. It's just physics here. Even lightly touching the rear brake at that time would result in a rear wheel lock (talking non-ABS here) with no added braking force. If you were in the formed habit of "always using both the front and rear brakes, all of the time" like the MSF preaches, on that non-ABS bike you will never reach 100% braking force available without locking that rear. If you do have ABS, as all 2nd gens do, then it is pretty much moot because the ABS will just release the rear when it approaches lockup anyway.
Auburn
Well-known member
I agree, that you can have up to 100% braking on the front wheel. THe more agressive the stop, the more wieght transfer to the front wheel. Which in turn allows allows more brake pressure on the front brakes. At some point you will lift the rear off the ground (or have so little contact) that the rear tire braking is essentially 0%.
I have had to brake that hard on my FJR from 70+ in the rain on the freeway as an object flipped up by a semi was coming in at me helmet high. I can attest that even with ABS, you can get the rear tire airborne. In my case, my racing background kicked in, I applied a rapid PROGRESSIVE pressure to the front brake lever. I slowed enough fast enough to prevent getting hit by the object.
You definitley react how you practice. As others have said, always use both brakes and practice your stops as if they were and emergency (in safe areas so you don't get run over from behind). Getting use to that wieght transfer and how fast you can Progressively add more pressure is something that needs to be practiced. If you ride 2 up, you should practice it with the passenger also. The bike does react differently when you have someone else that can move around during the braking evolution.
ULEWZ
Well-known member
Up until the FJR, I was a sportbike guy and I never used the rear brake when riding in the canyons. The exception is coming to a stop or to scrub off a little speed while trail braking (which takes skill to correctly master, so I rarely do it). The back brake on a sportbike can get you into trouble fast and will frequently cause a highside if not used properly. I have braked so hard coming into a turn that the rear wheel actually comes off the ground. The back brake is of little use in that scenario. The MSF course also teaches you to use all fingers to brake which I never do. Can't blip the throttle to downshift while braking hard using all fingers.
For normal touring on the FJR, the back brake is fine, I am just expressing my training from sportbikes which I will not change.
When my wife took her MSF course, she got one point off on the final practical test for using three fingers to brake as I taught her in the dirt. Made me laugh. Here is my opinion that will really ruffle some feathers, I do not use the MSF techniques for much of anything, especially for braking or downshifting, but I believe they are excellent techniques for beginners.
For normal touring on the FJR, the back brake is fine, I am just expressing my training from sportbikes which I will not change.
When my wife took her MSF course, she got one point off on the final practical test for using three fingers to brake as I taught her in the dirt. Made me laugh. Here is my opinion that will really ruffle some feathers, I do not use the MSF techniques for much of anything, especially for braking or downshifting, but I believe they are excellent techniques for beginners.
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gunny that....
When I learned to ride, the MSF instructor had us using mostly front for braking, rear, not so much. I found on my lil FZ6 that using rear brake for anything more than fine tuning made her ass slip, mostly out to the right.
I don't have the linked ABS, but last summer when a senior citizen in Penticton ran a red light, survival instinct had me brake hard with both front and back; the bike chirped, shuddered and came to a quiet, almost boring, uneventful stop, almost immediately.
ABS on a bike rawks, especially for someone like me, without the years of riding experience most of you men have, is a wonderful thing to own. I don't think it will have me change to using the rear only tho. I think relying on linked ABS braking runs the risk of the rider losing a very important skillset.
my 2cents.........CDN
Jetpilot5
Well-known member
Curious to know if you managed to stay out of the ABS during your stop. I had my first emergency stop on the FJR last week when a truck pulled out in front of me. Had the ABS activated both front and rear and didn't feel like I was ever close to lifting the rear wheel. Could be that I just jumped on the brakes too hard too quick and got into the ABS before enough weight had transferred to the front to really get a maximum effort stop. Also a possibility that I didn't have good enough traction conditions to get that much stopping power from the front. It worked out.
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Jetpilot5
Well-known member
This is how the brakes worked on my BMW K1200S. Out of all the linked/combined/ABS systems I've used (VFR800 and CBR1100XX linked, K1200S linked with ABS and GSX1250FA ABS not linked) it was my favorite. It worked great when you just wanted to drag the rear a little but was but was ferociously strong in an emergency. Twice I made emergency stops for deer with that bike, once from 90mph and the deceleration was impressive.
Could be related to available traction. That is the one variable we never have any control over. If the road traction was less than ideal, the ABS would detect some slippage on the front wheel. Also, if you just hammer on the front brake before any weight transfer has occurred you would see early slippage, which when the ABS kicks in would prevent further weight transfer, and further increased braking traction. That's why Auburn mentioned "progressively" squeezing that front lever. It's a "learned" skill.
Interesting. I had floated this idea (call it a scheme?) on other forums (VFR800 in particular) and never heard that it had already been done successfully before. Do you happen to know if the K1200RS also shares that braking feature? I'm particularly keen on picking up one of those some day.
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