FJR cornering technique

[James Burleigh]

As for debris....don't panic, ie, roll off throttle/stab brakes/death grip bars. Worked for me on a 20lb. raccoon, hanging off a FAST on camber right hander.

I'm studying Keith Code for an upcoming track day, and taking notes on his book for ease of reference. He calls 'em "Survival Reactions" (SRs). They are (quoting):

1. Roll off the gas. Triggers are In too fast, Going too wide, Too steep lean angle, Concerned about traction.

2. Tighten on bars.

3. Narrowed and frantically hunting field of view.

4. Fixed attention (on something).

5. Steering in the direction of the fixed attention.

6. No steering (frozen) or ineffective (not quick enough or too early) steering.

7. Braking errors (both over-and under-braking).

The most facinating thing Code says is, "Whether for a real or imagined reason, anything that triggers one of the SRs is an attempt to reduce or avoid injury. None of them work in harmony with machine technology or rider control."

JB

When you are either at "maintance throttle" or "on throttle" you are increasing ground clearence and that is a good thing.

As noted above, I'm taking notes on Keith Code's book, so I have this stuff in MS Word. He says,

THROTTLE CONTROL IN A TURN

Throttle Control: Rule No. One

1. 40% of the total load should be up front, 60% at the rear. The rider’s task is to match the exact load specs of his machine with expert use of the throttle.

2. We want to transfer 10 to 20% of the weight rearwards using the throttle. Simply put, it’s the force generated by a smooth fifth-gear roll-on in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range on pretty much anything over 600cc. That’s not much acceleration, but it does the job.

3. Rule No. One: Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn.

4. Riders do not improve their bikes; they simply help their bikes to work correctly.

5. Getting to and keeping a 40/60 percent weight balance is your basic throttle goal. It combats SR No. 1.

6. Chopping the throttle in a turn transfers 70 to 80% of the bike’s weight onto the front wheel, which is designed to carry only 35 to 40% while cornering.

7. Staying on the gas is no guarantee the bike won’t go down but you have to ask yourself this question: Are the chances of making it through the slippery corner improved or not improved by keeping the gas at least cracked on? Chopping the gas in a corner is equivalent to the extreme error of applying the front brake while leaned over and in slippery stuff, an error almost certain to result in a crash.

8. If you don’t lose traction going in, getting to 40/60 won’t make it crash—it will make it handle.

9. The old racing rule of “When in doubt, gas it!” does most certainly have some validity.

JB

 

[HaulinAshe]

First, MANY thanks for all the replies and great advice.

I normally am off the brakes into the turn. If I am on the rears at all, it is a very light drag brake. But I have found myself too low in the right corners and having to lift off the peg to increase my clearance. That is what started me thinking about the advice to shift your weight inside, rather than outside as we typically do in MX.

Dealing with foreign objects (paint, rocks etc.) is not so much a problem for me. My biggest concern is how to read/properly assess the effect that object will have on the FJR when I may already be near the limits of traction in a turn.

On dirt, you can count on and typically predict the amount of traction and control loss a stick or bump is going to have. On asphalt, and as far as I can tell, the only indicator on a FJR is when you wake up in the ditch. So I beg this question...

When a gravel breaks the rear loose, does the FJR typically skip and recover, or are you bound to have a bad day. I'm looking for some voices of experience that can qualify the line between an underwear change and an ambulance ride. Does that make sense?

Books are ordered and Slap is helping me too. I'm just looking to hang on to my reputation as "hey, he's pretty fast for an old guy"!

 

[Windjammer]

1. I use back brake in tight corners. Usually tap or tap-and-glide the front (along with some rear) for setting corner speed and tucking the suspension. Then when it's just about right, I ease off the front and release the rear to a very light drag. If needed, I will apply a LITTLE more or less rear. If things are going (badly) wrong, I will use more rear as I raise the bike to apply fronts. Everybody says "don't use rear brakes in corners". But after 43 years of practice, I am pretty damn good at it.Ok, my head is down. Slam away...

2. Tucking the bike down in the corners is a natural thing for me. It's the old dirt thing where you push the bike into the corner and keep your body high. I would like to practice putting my weight into the corner and leaving the bike high. But it's going to take conscious effort. All thinking and awkward and stuff, no instinct here! What can you suggest as a start?

3. Paint scares me. Rocks scare me too, but by the time I feel one it's too late anyway. Paint I can see for a LONG time and I don't know how (yet) to read the breaking point on the FJR. Are there any signs (besides my *** grinding on pavement) before the rear lets loose?

Regarding #1 - I think you're doing the right thing here. Using light brake application in corners can be beneficial. Just my opinion.

Regarding #2 - Shifting your weight to the inside will make cornering 1000% easier on a streetbike. But you will need to convert gradually, to allow the rest of your style to adapt to the weight shift. You should shift weight to the inside until the bike feels "neutral" in the corner. Once you get the knack of placing your body weight correctly, you might find that you need the brakes a lot less in corners, since cornering will be much easier.

Regarding #3 - The way a tire recovers or fails to recover from a slide is determined to some degree by the qualities of the tire, and how well the suspension is set up. Using good quality rubber and studying proper suspension set up will help you avoid problems at BOTH ends of the bike. Of course, for some situations there's nothing to be done, but all you can do is prepare to the best of your ability.

 

[dcarver]

I too am from the dirty side of life and am on the same journey as you to be truly street savvy. In the dirt, late 80's, I raced a 600 ATK, Honda xr600 engine equipped. To get the bike to turn faster in the corners, I'd actually grab a handful of front, purposely wash the front end out, release the front brake at the same time as feeding clutch to a 3/4 open throttle to spin the rear in order to catch the front end wash out. I did this lap after lap after lap and only occasionally pushed it too far and crashed.

On the FJR, I've been able to 'back' into a corner or two by unweighting the rear, downshifting, start the rear stepping out, then keep the slide going by applying throttle. I'm sure this is all terrible technique, but it does seem to work. I think the 07's are coming out with slipper clutches (you heard it here first).

I don't recommend this 'backing it in' technique, but it sure is FUN when you do it right. I don't do it regularly. Just once in a great while under bitchin conditions. And... someday it will probably get tossed away. But like Skooter just found out, if you going to Playa, you goin' to Paya. It's just a matter of time.

Back to topic, sorry for the diatribe, learning proper street techniques for us old dirties is difficult. Especially when we can use the dirt skills and comfortably ride faster than most good street riders. I'm on that journey now..

 

[ejworthen]

I read somewhere that you should lead with your chin. Meaning as you enter a right hander, put your chin to the right of the tank pointing toward your right mirror, pointing it into the corner. This will help shift your body weight in the right direction.

When you first start doing this it will feel almost exaggerated. Like your sticking your chin way out in the breeze. This is one technique that seemed to help me the most.

Get some of the books mentioned and try out some of the different techniques in them. Pick one thing out and practice it. After you have that down, pick another one and add it to the technique you already have down. Just keep doing that and adding skills.

 

[kiwi]

I read somewhere that you should lead with your chin. Meaning as you enter a right hander, put your chin to the right of the tank pointing toward your right mirror, pointing it into the corner. This will help shift your body weight in the right direction.
When you first start doing this it will feel almost exaggerated. Like your sticking your chin way out in the breeze. This is one technique that seemed to help me the most.

Get some of the books mentioned and try out some of the different techniques in them. Pick one thing out and practice it. After you have that down, pick another one and add it to the technique you already have down. Just keep doing that and adding skills.

This is great stuff, things i have being doing for years. The 40/60 rule mentioned above (via twist the wrist) is so true. I would often find that loadin the front to much was an issue for me, an as a result touch down, kickin the back end was a prob on some earlier bikes. Breaking before the corner, constant throttle/bike level, power out once clear, has kept alive for a good 20+yrs more. Good tires and pressure also make a hell of a difference, a thing you really don't want to leave to chance, not to mention fate. Counter steering beyond normal (dropping in) is something i have played around with, but have not drawn any profound conclusions about, however watchin G.P, Rossi etc seem to be hav n a bit of fun with it, but as mentioned above we are talking about road use.. but could this be off benefit to all of us?

 

[throttlejockeyTJ]

Going to WFO 5 I almost lost the front. I was going moderately on new pavement with low traction. I came around a turn & found a Lookout Point with a whole line of cars 90' to the road. Chopped the throttle to pick it up & the front slipped but held. Definetly to be avoided

Practice being smooth and your comfort level will increase. Hanging off shift your butt with your legs before you get to the turn, outside elbow low over the tank lean with your shoulders (on the balls of your feet with your heels in tight to the guard). Lee Parks class was benificial to me. TJ

If for some reason you misjudge a corner, a bit of rear brake can get you back to the comfort zone.

Madmike2, I never thought Kevin was a smooth rider. I thought he road with balls like a 'Wild Man'. I was surprised he won a Championship as it seemed he was always crashing.

 

[Jackson]

Here is an image from the Lee Parks web site:

(and I have no affiliation with Lee Parks)

If I interpret the graphic correctly, it represents keeping some brake on, a decreasing amount, through the corner, and beginning to roll on the throttle at the beginning of the corner, increasing it slowly through the corner. It does not say WHICH brake.

 

[James Burleigh]

Hanging off shift your butt with your legs before you get to the turn, outside elbow low over the tank lean with your shoulders (on the balls of your feet with your heels in tight to the guard). Lee Parks class was benificial to me. TJ

What TJ says jibes with Keith Code. Once again, allow me to paste in some of the relevant notes I have from Twist of the Wrist II:

Rider Input: Riders Create More Problems Than Motorcycles are Designed to Handle

• Based on the amount of wiggling, squirming, and overuse of controls most riders exhibit, the bike would, if it could, surely ask them to leave.

• Riders create instability on their own mounts.

• Most novice knee draggers try to hang off and steer at the same moment. One of the reasons the hanging-off riding style works so well is that your body is already in a low and stable position on the bike when you flick it into the corner.

• Correct technique:

o Get into the position well before the steering input, usually just before you roll off the gas and pull on the brakes.
o Stabilize yourself so you will not have to make any additional body position changes throughout the entire turn.
o Clamp onto the bike, just tight enough.
o Apply steering pressure to the handlebars.

Here is an image from the Lee Parks web site:

I would guess that the decreasing brake shown once in the corner is what is referred to as "trail braking." It hno doubt is rear--not front--brake.

Interesting that it doesn't drop at once to zero. Consider that all that happens in about two seconds or less.

JB

 

[Bounce]

Dealing with foreign objects (paint, rocks etc.) is not so much a problem for me. My biggest concern is how to read/properly assess the effect that object will have on the FJR when I may already be near the limits of traction in a turn.

That's the difference between street riding and track/dirt riding. You never ride at the limits of traction because you have to keep enough in reserve for the unexpected.

 

[user 213]

Some of the techniques posted here are best left off the street, IMHO. Take the intermediate MSF course, then if you're comfortable with that, the Advanced course. You'll find your bad habits and learn how to correct them, as well as get practice with instructors there to see what you're doing right and wrong.

Read this: Riding The Pace

Try it. Smooth is fast. Riding 10/10ths on the street is foolish. Theres always someone else out there, even when you don't think so.

The FJR handles paint stripes and other momentary losses of rear, (or front) traction well. You will slide, regain traction and if you don't do anything sudden and dumb, ride on. I've hit grease in the road at night in the rain on a twisty road and drifted the bike sideways 18" or so with both wheels and recovered fine. Not because I'm a great rider, but because I just rode through it w/o drama. Same for wet paint stripes. (someone please tell CalDOT to stop putting those wide arrows at the end of corners!)

 

[camera56]

Here is an image from the Lee Parks web site:

(and I have no affiliation with Lee Parks)

If I interpret the graphic correctly, it represents keeping some brake on, a decreasing amount, through the corner, and beginning to roll on the throttle at the beginning of the corner, increasing it slowly through the corner. It does not say WHICH brake.

+++++ 1 on Lee Parks. Get the book. Take the class. He learned this from Freddie Spencer. Simo use of brake and throttle coming into the corner. Smooooooooth. Reverse at the apex. FRONT BRAKE. The simo application minimizes front dive (or at least controls the rate at which it happens).

The part that the graph doesn't show and which Lee is big on (and Freddie) is to shift your weight to the inside of the centerline of the bike.

https://www.leeparksdesign.com/miscpage_002.asp

 

[HaulinAshe]

That diagram is great. I would say my timing of the elements is pretty dead-on. I am still learning how to brake hard with the fronts and come out gradually enough with trailing rear brake, to keep the suspension nicely loaded. If I get too harsh then the suspension unloads in the apex of the turn and my eyes get big!

Been practicing moving my body to the inside for a couple days. It felt very strange at first. Had my first instance of a left-hand sweeper yesterday with an oncoming SUV riding his double yellow. It felt like the SUV was going to rip off my head as he came by. I was running about 80-90 in 40 mph corner (just kidding Mr. Leo). Overall, I would say the drastic change in the sensations is the toughest adjustment to make.

When you dirt lean over the bike, you are looking from a higher position and typically over the shield. (Street) Leaning into the turn you naturally compress your spine, lower your CG, and see everything from a TOTALLY different perspective. It takes getting used to.

Today Heidi and I met in northern NC and rode the Sandy Ridge Road. It has some very nice sweepers with some moderate elevation humps leading into and out of turns. That kind of stuff would have caused me a lot of front mush using my old dirt style. Today, I leaned inside and "pulled" the bike with me. It felt like I was a foot or more off center, but I know that in reality I was only a couple inches to one side.

I would say that I comfortably averaged 15-20 mph faster than previous experiences. Heidi was having to work at it to stay with me. Only one time did I even approach a "limit" and had to take a wider line than intended. So I must say Thank You All, and that it does work! Now I need for Amazon to get my book here. find myself a track course, and practice practice practice.

To the comment earlier in the this thread about not using these techniques on the road...

I want to learn how to handle the bike better and read it's limitations better, so that I can ride fast and remain what I like to call "at least one mistake short of my limits". I never want to enter a corner doing everthing I can do unless it's on a controlled course and somebody is paying me to do so. So that will never happen for an old fart like me.



But if I can improve my handling skills by 20%, then I can ride 10% faster and be 10% safer too.

 

[Bounce]

One tip that often gets overlooked is the crossing the DY is not just a "bad thing" for the bike, it's also a bad thing for the riders head in a left-hand curve (US). You can be leaning toward the inside of a curve and your head can be over the DY if you get the bike too close to it.