FJR Headlight problem possibly dimmer relay

[Wrxdriver2011]

My 2010/11 FJR 1300 which I bought new in 2012 has been a great bike but for the last 2 years it has been plagued by a electrical problem. The headlights don't work, the blinkers stay on and the windshield does not work at all(sometimes when the bike is off but electrics are on. Ive had the problem inspected twice. The first time he inspected all fuses/relays/diodes/connections and couldn't find a problem, when he put it all back to together it worked. Months later it started again. I decided to inspect it myself and after spraying the dimmer relay with inox just below the speedo it started to work again. He further inspected it and put dialectic grease on it. The problem has arisen after a third time (a few months later) and I did the same thing but tried to clean it out with contact cleaner and then put dialectic grease back on it. It worked for a few days again then after riding through two consecutive days of light rain the problem is back.

I ride the bike everyday to commute to work in rain, hail or shine. Ive done 50,000km since buying it new. I really love the bike and hate the idea of driving to work now because the bike has no headlight.

 

[Snudge]

Check out the ground spider S6, under the glove box. You may find that if you put the screen up to highest setting, before you start the bike, that everything works OK.

Happened to me last year, ended up cropping the terminal block and soldering all six wires together, been OK since.

 

[Queensland Ken]

Sounds like a spider, the S6 as mentioned.

I also use Carbon Grease, dialectic grease is an insulator that makes a poor contact worse.

 

[mcatrophy]

...I also use Carbon Grease, dialectic grease is an insulator that makes a poor contact worse.

...

I understand why you say that, but it's a bit(?) of a myth. So-called conductive grease is a very poor conductor, in itself it makes no difference to the conductivity of a connection.

The electricity flows metal to metal. Any "power" connector relies on the sliding action of the metal contacts to push ANY grease (or dirt, oxidation or whatever) from where the metal to metal contact occurs.

The conductivity of conductive grease is orders of magnitude worse than the metal of the contacts, so essentially no electricity flows through the "conductive" grease.

Use whatever grease that will inhibit corrosion from creeping between the contact material, it makes no difference to the voltage drop across the connector.

There are many references on the internet, one such is here, I quote from it:

I continue to use silicone dielectric grease ... I use it for plug-in connections, in particular in my automotive hobby. I also use silicone dielectric grease for battery terminal connection preservation, coating it directly on the battery post. I use it in liberal amounts on ground connections, to inhibit corrosion on stainless-to-zinc (galvanized), lead-to-lead, stainless-to-copper, and stainless-to-aluminum electrical connections.
I have never found a problem with silicone dielectric compound increasing resistance or increasing wear. We use it in new equipment production to lubricate and preserve contact plating in very low current meter switches. It has never caused shorts across insulation, I use it on spark plug HV boots on race engines and in high voltage connectors.

The real use for copper-loaded grease is as anti-seize stuff, it's excellent for that. And it can be used in connectors, although I wouldn't use it as a lubricant for spark-plug connections - it is good for the thread (where the plug isn't supplied with an anti-seize thread).

 

[dcarver]

QKen - fantastic schematic. Thanks!

 

[CCook82]

Yes QKen. I used your schematic months ago to trouble shoot my FJR. That and your comments were very helpful. Thanks again.

(I had several problems mostly S4 recall which was supposed to be done was not and was melted).

 

[CCook82]

Yes QKen. I used your schematic months ago to trouble shoot my FJR. That and your comments were very helpful. Thanks again.

(I had several problems mostly S4 recall which was supposed to be done was not and was melted).

 

[Queensland Ken]

I also use Carbon Grease, dialectic grease is an insulator that makes a poor contact worse....
I understand why you say that, but it's a bit(?) of a myth. So-called conductive grease is a very poor conductor, in itself it makes no difference to the conductivity of a connection.

The electricity flows metal to metal. Any "power" connector relies on the sliding action of the metal contacts to push ANY grease (or dirt, oxidation or whatever) from where the metal to metal contact occurs.

The conductivity of conductive grease is orders of magnitude worse than the metal of the contacts, so essentially no electricity flows through the "conductive" grease.

Use whatever grease that will inhibit corrosion from creeping between the contact material, it makes no difference to the voltage drop across the connector.

There are many references on the internet, one such is here, I quote from it:

I continue to use silicone dielectric grease ... I use it for plug-in connections, in particular in my automotive hobby. I also use silicone dielectric grease for battery terminal connection preservation, coating it directly on the battery post. I use it in liberal amounts on ground connections, to inhibit corrosion on stainless-to-zinc (galvanized), lead-to-lead, stainless-to-copper, and stainless-to-aluminum electrical connections.
I have never found a problem with silicone dielectric compound increasing resistance or increasing wear. We use it in new equipment production to lubricate and preserve contact plating in very low current meter switches. It has never caused shorts across insulation, I use it on spark plug HV boots on race engines and in high voltage connectors.

The real use for copper-loaded grease is as anti-seize stuff, it's excellent for that. And it can be used in connectors, although I wouldn't use it as a lubricant for spark-plug connections - it is good for the thread (where the plug isn't supplied with an anti-seize thread).

Whatever ! Each to their own.

Have you checked out the tech specifications of the product I use ?

Has a resistivity of about 115 ohms / cm, even much better conductivity in thinner applications and stable up to about 200 degrees.

It is designed for this very application, can find all sorts of misinformation on the interwebs.

Dialectic grease has a resistivity of about 1 ×10 to the 15th ohms / cm, to 2.6×10 to the 15th ohms / cm

 

[escapefjrtist]

QKen - fantastic schematic. Thanks!

Echoing DC...I'm going to print and save that piece!

--G

 

[Queensland Ken]

Thanks gents, the diagram is for everyone to freely share.

I need to update it a bit, eg the S2 and S5 spiders are for the 5 volt transducer neutrals and totally separate to the other 12 V neutral spiders & hence should never be joined.

It's power is supplied via the ECU.

I tried to figure out the wiring around that Front Faring Connector #3 but was a bit too hard.

I don't own a Gen2 any more, so that’s about it.

If you use the diagram it will give you a general idea where the fault may lie.

So long as you gather all the symptoms, it also depends where where the fault is eg burnt wires on the S6 or a high resistance on the S4 connector pin can give you the same symptoms.

Remember there are good references in Technical/Mechanical Problems

 

[mcatrophy]

Ken - I don't want to get into a p*ss*ng match, you Aussies are so much better than we Poms at that, as well as at cricket and rugby. Let's just look at the figures.

... the tech specifications of the product I use ?Has a resistivity of about 115 ohms / cm...

As a comparison, copper has a resistivity of 1.59 x 10-6 ohm/cm (I had to go back to my 1966 Collin's Radio Diary to get this in cgs units!). Your grease is approximately 10000 times more resistive than my copper. There is no way that can affect the conductivity of a connector.
A ball-park calculation - let's assume we have a connector surface area say 1mm wide, 2 mm long. Let's put in a layer of your grease that's 0.01mm thick (I can't imagine any thinner). Its resistance would be 115 x 0.001 / (0.1 x 0.2) ohms. That's 5.75 ohms. That's not going to help a circuit carrying even 1 amp (5.75 volt drop, 5.75 watts heat dissipation).

As I said, the idea of "conductive" grease being superior to a "dielectric" grease in a power circuit is a myth. Nothing wrong with using it, simply no advantage.

Oh, yes, your diagram is the bee's knees. Luckily I never suffered from spider bites on my Gen 2 bikes, but that would have been a god-send if I had been unlucky.

 

[RossKean]

Interesting article on conductive grease vs dielectric. For conductive, they discuss suspended metallic particles, not carbon.

https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm

A carbon grease manufacturer suggests the range of application as follows

Improves electrical connections between irregular or pitted surfaces

Ensures electrical contact between loose or vibrating parts

Prevents arching, pitting, hotspots, and welds

Wide service temperature range of -68°C to 200°C

Safe on plastics

Volume Resistivity of 117 Ω·cm

This may suggest that it is less useful for a firm connection where there is good metal-to-metal contact.

 

[Queensland Ken]

Interesting article on conductive grease vs dielectric. For conductive, they discuss suspended metallic particles, not carbon.
https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm

A carbon grease manufacturer suggests the range of application as follows

Improves electrical connections between irregular or pitted surfaces

Ensures electrical contact between loose or vibrating parts

Prevents arching, pitting, hotspots, and welds

Wide service temperature range of -68°C to 200°C

Safe on plastics

Volume Resistivity of 117 Ω·cm

This may suggest that it is less useful for a firm connection where there is good metal-to-metal contact.

The Volume Resistivity of carbon grease is 117 Ω·cm (my product is 115 Ω·cm)

The Volume Resistivity of Dialectic grease is about 1 ×10 to the 15th ohms / cm, to 2.6×10 to the 15th ohms / cm

That is say 2,000,000,000,000,000 Ω·cm

Electrical resistivity (also known as resistivity, specific electrical resistance, or volume resistivity) is an intrinsic property that quantifies how strongly a given material opposes the flow of electric current.A low resistivity indicates a material that readily allows the flow of electric current.

117 ohms is a LOT less resistance than 2000000000000000 Ω·cm hello.

That is to say that the resistance of Dialectic grease is 17391304347 times that of carbon grease, well at lest the grease I use is.

Improves electrical connections between irregular or pitted surfacesEnsures electrical contact between loose or vibrating parts

Isn't that what you want on the spiders, a dead short ????

I use Dialectic Grease on Connectors with multi circuits within them then in case I short out the circuits.eg the front connector #3

I use a lot more Dialectic Grease in industry than Carbon Grease.

I've only been using it my entire working life as an Electrical Fitter Mechanic, process controller, elevator mechanic, PLC engineer, computer and industrial electronics and a dozen other qualifications.

Good luck !!! I'm out of here.

 

[RossKean]

Ken

I understand that an electrically conductive grease is MANY times more conductive than a silicone-based dielectric grease. I would, however, argue that the PRIMARY mode of electrical transmission is by direct metal-to-metal contact and that there is little added value in conductive vs dielectric grease if the physical connection is robust between clean conductor surfaces. The value of conductive grease enters when you have inadequate clamping force to punch through oxide/dirt/grease layers on the connectors (loose connectors, oxidation, insufficient surface area contact for current load). I was just posting a couple of relevant items I saw on-line; not trying to bust your chops with respect to an area where you clearly have first-hand expert knowledge. (You obviously took my comments in a way I did not intend!)

In my opinion, the primary value of either grease is to inhibit ingress of water/air which will promote oxidation/corrosion. Conductive may give you an edge if the connection is imperfect for one reason or another.

By the way, I have tried to get carbon electrically conductive grease around here and it is simply not available in this (small) city. I would have to order the stuff.

 

[Donal]

Ken
I understand that an electrically conductive grease is MANY times more conductive than a silicone-based dielectric grease. I would, however, argue that the PRIMARY mode of electrical transmission is by direct metal-to-metal contact and that there is little added value in conductive vs dielectric grease if the physical connection is robust between clean conductor surfaces. The value of conductive grease enters when you have inadequate clamping force to punch through oxide/dirt/grease layers on the connectors (loose connectors, oxidation, insufficient surface area contact for current load). I was just posting a couple of relevant items I saw on-line; not trying to bust your chops with respect to an area where you clearly have first-hand expert knowledge. (You obviously took my comments in a way I did not intend!)

In my opinion, the primary value of either grease is to inhibit ingress of water/air which will promote oxidation/corrosion. Conductive may give you an edge if the connection is imperfect for one reason or another.

By the way, I have tried to get carbon electrically conductive grease around here and it is simply not available in this (small) city. I would have to order the stuff.

+1 x 10 to the sixth...........

 

[Queensland Ken]

Sorry RossKen,

The conductive grease is very sticky like like the proverbial on bears fur.

Stops egress of water

Like anything I use I always check out the manufactures website to see if it's technical specifications meets my requirements.

I'm fairly limited where I live also, If I can't find it local then I buy from the interwebs.

 

[Wrxdriver2011]

Thanks. So have been researching the spider issue. the relay I'm referring to is really the spider block. The one located under the speedo. Does the metal pin thing ie spider pull out? If i do this and put dialectic grease on it will this solve it. Also i haven't looked at the one under the globe box this time around. The second time it happened i probably would of sprayed it out with inox. I'm looking for an easy fix. Tried searching for one but couldn't find one net there is so much discussion on this topic.

 

[Donal]

Thanks. So have been researching the spider issue. the relay I'm referring to is really the spider block. The one located under the speedo. Does the metal pin thing ie spider pull out? If i do this and put dialectic grease on it will this solve it. Also i haven't looked at the one under the globe box this time around. The second time it happened i probably would of sprayed it out with inox. I'm looking for an easy fix. Tried searching for one but couldn't find one net there is so much discussion on this topic.

Yes the bridging 'pin' will pull out. You need to carefully inspect the whole connector block for signs of overheating. If you are absolutely happy with what you see then use your favourite anti-corrosion compound to ensure no corrosion is likely to take place.

If you see anything that doesn't 'look like new' your best bet is to cut the block off and connect the wires together either by soldering or crimping.

While you are at it you should carry out the same procedure with all the 'ground spiders'.............

 

[mcatrophy]

Just to add, there is a plastic cover over the block, this comes off to reveal the flat part of the spider.

Here's a pic of a pulled spider, shows minor corrosion.

(Click on image for larger view)