FJR1300/AE vs BMW K1200GT ('06)

[afterburn]

The main word is compromise. Think about it. The bike has to be able to handle 2 passengers and cargo. But, it also has to be able to handle 1 rider without cargo. The passengers might be 150 lbs, the passengers might be 300 lbs. It has to be stiff enough that it provides a good sporty ride, yet soft enough that it has to be comfortable for touring. Unless you have a suspension with 4 or 5 different 'pre sets', most will just find a decent suspension set up and leave it like that for all kinds of riding and while 1-up or 2-up.Saying that the suspension parts should be very good, well, I would argue that they are if they are able to do all of the things above plus they have some flexibility with 3 way adjustment on the front forks and 2 way adjustment on the shock.

Just curious - if it's €17K for the FJR in Holland, how much will the BMW GT cost?

Yes and no. Given that Yamaha owns Ohlins, they are capable of delivering top-notch suspension at very little added cost to the bike. They don't. They put on ok suspension that is completely useless and worn out by 15-20k miles. On a touring bike for ***** sake. I just hate when they do that.

As far as the GT, baseprice is probably going to be around €22,000 ($26k)

 

[downn2(aka starcruiser)]

Arguable. You could put top of the line suspension upgrade components (new shock, fork springs) on the FJR for anywhere around $1000-$1400.

I'm familiar with the Wilbur shock upgrade for the rear shock as being the best of the best, but what type of upgrade on the front forks is he referring to? As I've haven't heard anything mentioned about that...

 

[Ignacio]

I'm familiar with the Wilbur shock upgrade for the rear shock as being the best of the best, but what type of upgrade on the front forks is he referring to? As I've haven't heard anything mentioned about that...

Besides the very cool Wilber rear shock, they also make a set of front fork springs for less than a hundred bucks. From memory they were supposed to have 10 or 15% more rate to them and maybe be progressive.

Regardless, they are listed are in the impending Group Buy on this board and will be detailed later.

Of course, it's for 2005 and earlier.

 

[sparky3008]

I'm familiar with the Wilbur shock upgrade for the rear shock as being the best of the best, but what type of upgrade on the front forks is he referring to? As I've haven't heard anything mentioned about that...

Besides the very cool Wilber rear shock, they also make a set of front fork springs for less than a hundred bucks. From memory they were supposed to have 10 or 15% more rate to them and maybe be progressive.

Regardless, they are listed are in the impending Group Buy on this board and will be detailed later.

Of course, it's for 2005 and earlier.

Many other sites mention other parts of the front suspension such as valving and such. On this forum it just seems to be springs???

 

[Ignacio]

How about going to the source

Wilbers USA Products I think they offer more being a German company, but you'll have to read German to figure out Wilbers Germany

Some of the products will be offered on this site with a Group Buy....some will not.

 

[madmike2]

Revalving has been discussed on this forum. You'd have to scroll down through this and the technical threads, but is has been discussed. Cost is the issue! Personally, I don't push my bike hard enough to justify the outlay (IMHO), but for those who ride in a more sportbike fashion, doing it all would be the "E-ticket". I do notice quite a bit of compression of the springs during hard braking, and at 250#+ I understand, so I will probably be having the front springs changed in the next year or so (I'm currently @ 14 months and 12.5K miles)

IIRC, sportryder is the handle of an owner who works for one of the suspension shops and has posted a lot of info, so begin your search by reading his posts related to suspension and revalving.

 

[Randy]

The main word is compromise.  Think about it.  The bike has to be able to handle 2 passengers and cargo.  But, it also has to be able to handle 1 rider without cargo.  The passengers might be 150 lbs, the passengers might be 300 lbs.  It has to be stiff enough that it provides a good sporty ride, yet soft enough that it has to be comfortable for touring.  Unless you have a suspension with 4 or 5 different 'pre sets', most will just find a decent suspension set up and leave it like that for all kinds of riding and while 1-up or 2-up.Saying that the suspension parts should be very good, well, I would argue that they are if they are able to do all of the things above plus they have some flexibility with 3 way adjustment on the front forks and 2 way adjustment on the shock. 

Just curious - if it's €17K for the FJR in Holland, how much will the BMW GT cost?

Yes and no. Given that Yamaha owns Ohlins, they are capable of delivering top-notch suspension at very little added cost to the bike. They don't. They put on ok suspension that is completely useless and worn out by 15-20k miles. On a touring bike for ***** sake. I just hate when they do that.

As far as the GT, baseprice is probably going to be around €22,000 ($26k)

Completely useless??? I don't agree with that. I think it handles pretty good out of the box.

Just because Yamaha owns Ohlins doesn't mean they have to put that equipment on every bike. And just because they own them doesn't mean they could acquire the components for little/no cost. If they could, that's all you would see on every piece of Yamaha equipment that has some type of suspension. While they own them, they are still a cost center and are responsible for delivering a profit. If they give all of their product away at less than a profitable amount, then they couldn't continue to exist. So, if they have to continue to produce a profit, they have to pass on the higher cost to the consumer. Additionally, maybe Ohlins doesn't have a business/manufacturing model that would allow them to mass produce the components.

They could put these higher quality components on, but, along the same lines as the stock components, they would have to provide something that covers the entire gambut of a single 150 lb rider to a husband and wife who each weigh over 200 lbs and include their luggage for a weekend jaunt.

In addition, just cause they are 'higher quality' doesn't mean they aren't going to wear out. Quality springs will need to be replaced. Valving will need to be redone. Oil will need to be replaced. Gas, if used, will need to be recharged. And don't be a bit surprised if these higher quality components need to be refreshed in fewer miles than the stock ones.

They've been making motorcycles for quite a long time and I'm sure more than 1 person has proposed putting Ohlins components on more of their bikes and I'm sure they have a very thorough reason as to why they don't.

 

[afterburn]

Good quality components do not wear out in 15-20k. I agree the FJR does pretty well, for as long as the stocker isn't shot. Mine now has 35k on it, and if you start pushing it a bit, the experience can be, um, exciting. In touring mode, it still behaves ok, but try to utilize the sport potential the bike has, no thanks, not without some replacement parts.

If they can put it on a $9000 R6, they sure should be able to do it on a $13,500 bike like the FJR.

But Yamaha isn't the only one. Honda does the same thing with the VFR. It's their expensive technological showpiece, but its suspension sucks in stock config. They put their good bits on the CBR's.

For the world of me, I cannot understand why Japanese manufacturers put their worst suspension on their most expensive bikes. Maybe they think only old scruffy tourers buy these bikes and they don't notice anyway. Well sorry Yammie, I'm only 35 and haven't lost all my crazy youth just yet.

 

[Vulcan]

FJR comes standard with the 3 year warranty in Canada but we don't get the bag linners.

 

[BrunDog]

Two things:

1. This month's RIDER magazine says the '06 GT will be the S engine re-tuned for 150 hp but more torque.

2. You are comparing apples to bananas. The GT will have a manual transmission and the AE will have Yamaha's new wonder-clutch (as in, wonder how much it will restrict your control, but I digress...)

In terms of power, the FJR will smoke the GT every day, all day, all night, on weekends and holidays, lunar eclipses and leap years.

-BD

 

[SoCalMike]

Check out this link:

K1200GT

Check out pages 9 and 10 of this PDF document. There's an interesting comparison chart between the K, FJR and ST1300.

Looks to me like the K and FJR are pretty close in all categories (except price )

 

[kaitsdad]

Ask Jim Owen about Bavarian clutches.

 

[Rob L]

Vulcan,

The FJR does not come with a standard 3 yr warranty in Canada. 1 yr is standard with3 and 4 yrs optional but expensive (4 yrs +/- $965 CDN)

 

[yellowmagnaman]

Remember what BMW stands for! Bring My $$$$. I've been in the CRVBMW for 10 years and more and more riders are switching from their Beemers to FJR's. The old BMW's were great bikes, but the new ones have way to many problems.

 

[Skippy]

Good quality components do not wear out in 15-20k. I agree the FJR does pretty well, for as long as the stocker isn't shot. Mine now has 35k on it, and if you start pushing it a bit, the experience can be, um, exciting. In touring mode, it still behaves ok, but try to utilize the sport potential the bike has, no thanks, not without some replacement parts.
If they can put it on a $9000 R6, they sure should be able to do it on a $13,500 bike like the FJR.

But Yamaha isn't the only one. Honda does the same thing with the VFR. It's their expensive technological showpiece, but its suspension sucks in stock config. They put their good bits on the CBR's.

For the world of me, I cannot understand why Japanese manufacturers put their worst suspension on their most expensive bikes. Maybe they think only old scruffy tourers buy these bikes and they don't notice anyway. Well sorry Yammie, I'm only 35 and haven't lost all my crazy youth just yet.

You sir, have obviously not ridden the 2004-2005 Yamaha FZ6, or you would not make that comment about the FJR having the worst suspension.

I have 18,000 on big blue as of this writting, weigh 225lb and still scrape the pegs, highway bars and the right muffler when ever I feel the need.

If you go onto the R6 or R1 boards, you will hear them say the same thing about thier suspension, and will also see how they have organised group buys to replace them.

The FJR, as with many products sold in the USA are very competitively priced when compared to other countries and currencies.

The majority of people do not complain about suspensions being inadequate, , so who should Yamaha build the bike for, the minority or the majority?

If people are pushing the bike past it's design limits/parameters, and need the suspension upgraded then that is something they should be responsible for, not the manufacturer.

A lot of people, me included, negotiated a $1,000 discount off of the MSRP, that way I can buy an upgrade with the money I saved.

Skippy

 

[afterburn]

The majority of people do not complain about suspensions being inadequate, , so who should Yamaha build the bike for, the minority or the majority?

How about the majority of people don't know that the behavior of their bike is being caused by bad suspension. They either think it's supposed to be like that or they think they are reaching the limits of the bike (and think they're pretty badass riders while they're at it ). Most people can't tell if their suspension sucks, untill they ride the same bike with a proper setup, or unless they have experience with setting up suspension.

That however doesn't mean the problem isn't there. I am by no means a suspension expert, but I do have a solid understanding of how it works. I can dial in suspension of a bike and I can recognize suspension related problems when I ride a bike. I am a bit of a techie and have this thing about understanding how something works and how to change it. Maybe the old saying 'ignorance is bliss' is true, cause it sure sucks if you are able to tell what's wrong with the suspension after riding 10 miles and no possibility to do anything about it other than shelling out $1000.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

The majority of people do not complain about suspensions being inadequate, , so who should Yamaha build the bike for, the minority or the majority?

How about the majority of people don't know that the behavior of their bike is being caused by bad suspension. They either think it's supposed to be like that or they think they are reaching the limits of the bike (and think they're pretty badass riders while they're at it ). Most people can't tell if their suspension sucks, untill they ride the same bike with a proper setup, or unless they have experience with setting up suspension.

That however doesn't mean the problem isn't there. I am by no means a suspension expert, but I do have a solid understanding of how it works. I can dial in suspension of a bike and I can recognize suspension related problems when I ride a bike. I am a bit of a techie and have this thing about understanding how something works and how to change it. Maybe the old saying 'ignorance is bliss' is true, cause it sure sucks if you are able to tell what's wrong with the suspension after riding 10 miles and no possibility to do anything about it other than shelling out $1000.

So, where do you live and can I come over and learn about how to adjust the stock suspension?

 

[afterburn]

You're welcome, but I'm in Europe and there isn't much to adjust on the rear end of the stockers.

 

[Windjammer]

You're welcome, but I'm in Europe and there isn't much to adjust on the rear end of the stockers.

Could it be a Europe Thing? It's safe to say that American and European riders demand different things from bikes in general, and suspension in particular. There's a lot of people here in the US who will never push the bike hard enough to test the limits of the suspension. Europe is a different story.

I agree with you that most Jap bikes have half assed suspension out of the crate. No argument there. But the rider who's packing up the wife and luggage for a freeway run, followed by a few two-lanes ridden at the speed limit of 55mph (88kph) is more interested in how the suspension soaks up bumps riding in a straight line. Gonna push the bike through some bumpy corners? Gotta buy the bits. Sucks, but that's the way it goes.

 

[The_Touring_Professor]

Couple of thoughts related to some of the comments spread throughout this thread. Caution: YMMV.

I own a 2005 FJR, and a 2002 BMWK1200LTC (second one I've owned). I have toured extensively on the Bimmer, and was able to get some 2000+ tours on the FJR in last summer. I have also toured extensively on the Gold Wing, like Hondas, and have two of those in my garage as well.

Just setting the stage to point out I'm not a 'brand snob'.

I currently have a new GT on order (should receive the first Blue one my dealer delivers). The bike I'll be trading in will be the BMW, not the FJR. The GT, which is basically a K1200S with RT ergonomics, is not comparable to the Gold Wing. If it was, I wouldn't be buying it. IMHO, the GW, K100LT, Ultra Classic, and Yamaha Venture currently make up the luxo touring category. The FJR, ST1300, new GT, and some would say the Concours are sport tourers; most folks who rode the new GTs at Daytona rate the GT as the bike BMW is building with the FJR in its gunsights.

My 2002 BMWK1200LTC was less than 22,000 US, delivered. The Goldwing in 2002, after adding Honda and aftermarket accessories to get the options standard on my bike which was not even available from Honda (e.g. heated seats, electrically operated windshield, which Honda still does not offer) put the GW more than $2,000 more than the BMW. Based on 2006 prices, which I explored before putting down a deposit on the GT, is comparable. So, regardless of what was stated earlier, the BMW K1200LT is not thousands more than an equivalently equipped GW.

After adding every option but the tall windscreen, the GT MSRP is just over $24,000 US. The horsepower is 157, detuned from the 167 on the S.

I spend a good amount of time on the Just Ride It owners board. You can go there and find threads related to problems and issues some owners have had. I have to say, however, that most of the folks posting on the board have pointed out that the complaints represent a significant minority - if vocal - part of our community. Most owners have never had the issues that some of the more vocal members of our group periodically discuss. The most well-known of these issue, rear end failures occurring primarily in pre-2003 bikes have been actually estimated at ~4% or less. I have owned a 2001 and a 2002 and have never had a single mechanical failure. Many of the other owners I know in this area have had the same experience, we just don't want to get flamed by the more vocal group. No bike is immune from this sort of thing on the internet. Visit the GW site and do a search on Overheating Problems and Frame Weld failures. My opinion: BMW builds a solid bike.

So why the trade-in choice? Size/weight/center of gravity.

The BMW is a large, heavy weight tourer just like the GW. The difference is, it has a notoriously high center of gravity. 5 years ago at 50 it was no big deal. As I get older and tour into small towns with narrow parking spots and streets, it just gets tiresome horsing the bike around. Not that I cannot handle it, just don't feel like doing so any more. What sealed the deal for me was when I toured on the FJR last summer - tours like the Bimmer, but feels like a Honda dream in comparison - what a pleasure. The new GT is what I wanted from BMW all along but what was never offered - a 1200RT (Boxer) ergonomically, with a high powered in-line 4. My ultimate plan is to use the FJR for long distance touring (I have 3 cruisers) on routes with mostly twisties, and the BMW GT for long distance touring with more than 20% slab riding required - this is based on my riding experience on the FJR, and the assumption that the GT is ergonomically equivalent to the RT.

I agree with what others have said about build quality on the FJR and BMW being equivalent, and that BMW comes with more amenities (e.g. heated seats, heated grips standard - I had to add the grips to my FJR). I disagree that BMWs have way more problems - although I still have no idea what the 'ticking' issue is. I also think that if you are comparing the two bikes, you should also be comparing the relative effectiveness of the ABS brakes, and the suspension system that is unique to the BMW, and in my experience, extremely effective.

I'm not certain what the FJR will do versus the new GT, unlike others, because I haven't yet owned and ridden both in equivalent conditions - and neither has anyone else, BTW.

Just my $0.02

The Touring Professor

2002 BMW K1200LTC

2005 FJR

2004 Rune

2002 VTX 1800R

2005 Triumph Rocket III

1999 H-D Dyna-Glide Convertible