FJR1300A vs K1200GT (Real Differences)

[bmwhd]

(snip)
There's a simple reason the BMW needs high test. It makes more power from less displacement via higher compression. Besides, people who can afford a K1200GT aren't going to worry about paying an extra $1.50 per fill-up.

-Uwe-

So why decide to limit displacement and increase compression? Most modern engines simply don't require premium fuel. Does it somehow add to the image of owning a BMW when you pull up to the more expensive pump?

Possibly because a smaller displacement engine is lighter? The K1200GT is something like 50 pounds lighter than a Gen-2 FJR, despite having more equipment. Higher compression also means (at least in theory) greater efficiency.

-Uwe-

Yamaha lists the dry weight of the FJR as 582 lb. BMW lists the GT at 549 lb. but you're right, 33 lbs is 33 lbs.

Another couple of things to consider are the load capacity and alternator output of the GT which are both substantially better than the FJR. This could be a real difference maker for someone that rides 2-up all the time.

 

[markjenn]

For me though it all comes back to that rear drive. I just won't own a bike I don't trust to take me cross-country at a moments notice with no worries of being stranded.

I'm aware of only one final drive failure of the K1200GT so far.

FJR's have their valve ticking problem and BMW's have their final drive issues. In both cases, the latest generations appear to have the problem down to the level where it is a very small concern.

Your point is well taken. I'd never say that the reliabiltiy of any BMW (car or bike) is as good as a comparable Japanese product. But I don't think the problem is black/white like so many make it. If I really liked th GT better than a FJR (or a 328i vs. a G35 to continue the car analogy), I'd get the BMW because they're fine-driving vehicles and probably reliable "enough". BMW has a unique way of designing a vehicle which can make for a very compeling ride. For example, I'm absolutely convinced the Telelever is just a superior front suspension for a backroads touring bike. The FJR's forks just don't work as well as the Telelever in real-world, bumpy-road applications. (I haven't ridden enough behind the new K-bikes Hossack to have an opinion yet.)

- Mark

 

[wheatonFJR]

BMW, has no credibility as a company. Their bikes are not dependable. They use antiquated products on the bikes.

Their after market line are limited in value and usability.

I feel the products they produce are crap.

They don't stand behind their warranty.

They refuse to fix their mistakes. :angry2:

I have the money to buy a GT, and felt the FJR is superior bike.

I didn't need all the other crap bmw hangs on a bike.

Hell the FJR attains its horse power on regular gas, bmw needs high test.

I am riding the FJR to the next bmw rally I attend. :huh:

Be sure to print out a copy of this post and bring it with you if you do and tape it to your windshield.

I presume you are going to the rally for the people/cameraderie as it seems the product does nothing for you.

 

[bmwhd]

For me though it all comes back to that rear drive. I just won't own a bike I don't trust to take me cross-country at a moments notice with no worries of being stranded.

I'm aware of only one final drive failure of the K1200GT so far.

FJR's have their valve ticking problem and BMW's have their final drive issues. In both cases, the latest generations appear to have the problem down to the level where it is a very small concern.

Your point is well taken. I'd never say that the reliabiltiy of any BMW (car or bike) is as good as a comparable Japanese product. But I don't think the problem is black/white like so many make it. If I really liked th GT better than a FJR (or a 328i vs. a G35 to continue the car analogy), I'd get the BMW because they're fine-driving vehicles and probably reliable "enough". BMW has a unique way of designing a vehicle which can make for a very compeling ride. For example, I'm absolutely convinced the Telelever is just a superior front suspension for a backroads touring bike. The FJR's forks just don't work as well as the Telelever in real-world, bumpy-road applications. (I haven't ridden enough behind the new K-bikes Hossack to have an opinion yet.)

- Mark

While there has only been one widely reported GT rear drive failure, the new style drive has failed several times across the entire line, especially in the GS's which have been out longer and have more examples on the street. For me personally, the rear drive issue is far more serious (having had one go south on my LT) then the valve tick issues. Ticking valves don't leave you stranded in the middle of a vacation looking for a tow. Add that to BMW's complete refusal to address this issue on the LT which has a WELL DOCUMENTED 4% failure rate and they have one less customer in me.

As for the telelever, I loved the one on my LT but I think you'll find us in the minority. Read any professional review of a BMW and chances are high they have dis-ed the telelever as lacking feedback.

 

[scubatech]

I would think with all the engineering expertise the Germans have they could solve this issue. I have heard it is a problem related to the ball bearing assembly in the final drive, so I wander why they wouldn't try heavier duty tapered bearing assemblies?

 

[FantasticJohnR]

I haven't seen a mention of the wheel base here yet; and I don't know the exact difference - but my friend has a GT and the wheel base seems longer by at least several inches- may make a difference to some of you in the corners.

John

 

[markjenn]

I would think with all the engineering expertise the Germans have they could solve this issue. I have heard it is a problem related to the ball bearing assembly in the final drive, so I wander why they wouldn't try heavier duty tapered bearing assemblies?

The problem is that a multitude of problems get lumped into the term "final drive failure".

The most common failure is to have the ring seal fail that seals the interface between the wheel hub and the diff. The result is a fine spray of oil that starts to coat the rear rim. This is a fairly minor problem, gives a lot of warning, and most riders can limp a thousand or more miles to get it fixed. Likewise, the seal on the input shaft side of the pumpkin can fail which results in an oil drip down on the diff bellows. Again, lots of warning. I had this happen to my bike and did a 3K tour with the diff oil not dropping enough to bother having to add any. It was fixed under the standard 3-yr warranty.

The failure you're talking about is the paralever pivot bearings, two small ball bearings which allow the pumpkin to pivot up/down as the suspension flexes. They are spec'd a bit weak. Again, this is an easy fix which gives a lot of warning in the form of play that develops at wheel.

The really bad failure is when the tranny output shaft splines strip on the clutch hub. This leaves you stranded. But this is a relatively uncommon failure compared to the other two.

There are a couple other failure modes but they're much more uncommon.

Bottom line: the number of truly "stuck on the side of the road" failures with BMW's final drives is pretty small. But certainly it has occured a few times. But people hear about the more common and less serious final drive problems and assume they're the type that leave you stranded.

All machines have weaknesses. Some have more than others.

- Mark

 

[bmwhd]

The problem is that a multitude of problems get lumped into the term "final drive failure".
The most common failure is to have the ring seal fail that seals the interface between the wheel hub and the diff. The result is a fine spray of oil that starts to coat the rear rim. This is a fairly minor problem, gives a lot of warning, and most riders can limp a thousand or more miles to get it fixed. Likewise, the seal on the input shaft side of the pumpkin can fail which results in an oil drip down on the diff bellows. Again, lots of warning. I had this happen to my bike and did a 3K tour with the diff oil not dropping enough to bother having to add any. It was fixed under the standard 3-yr warranty.

The failure you're talking about is the paralever pivot bearings, two small ball bearings which allow the pumpkin to pivot up/down as the suspension flexes. They are spec'd a bit weak. Again, this is an easy fix which gives a lot of warning in the form of play that develops at wheel.

Let's just say I respectfully disagree. The vast majority of rear drive failures on the LT are sudden and without warning by my definition which is "one day as I leave the motel on a multi day vacation I suddenly feel the back end getting squirly and then I hear crunching and then I'm stuck on the side of the road". Do a quick search on "read drive failure" on bmwlt.com and see what I mean.

I stood in the room at their annual meeting and heard the BMWNA rep admit the 4% failure rate on the drives (he's since been "reassigned"). That was almost 5 years ago now and still no official acknowledgment of the problem, let alone a fix.

Right now they're discussing how the new style drive is weeping/misting oil on to the rear wheel. Does this sound like a potential problem? I have enough trouble keeping the bike upright on dry tires.

 

[BobG]

Be sure to print out a copy of this post and bring it with you if you do and tape it to your windshield.
I presume you are going to the rally for the people/cameraderie as it seems the product does nothing for you.

The club members are in agreement with me. Including how crappy of a design my bike is.

I did better than taping it to the windshield, I placed the name of Leper on my bmw gas tank.

How many Iron Butt riders are using the GT vs the FJR?

Also what bikes are failing in these races, has an FJR failed to finish due to mechanical problems?

I ride out west around the rockies, don't need to be stranded by a sudden bmw mechanical failure such as a clutch spline failure.

To me a new bmw is like owning a harley, you need to know where all the bmw shops are to use them across the country. Never know where you are going to be stranded.

In reality, I was fucked over by bmw so bad that there is nothing anyone here could say that will change my mind. I will bad mouth those bastards till I am dead.

Have a wonderful day all.

 

[scubatech]

Thanks for defining that problem, Mark. I really like the GS. When in Europe last fall I asked the Edelweiss leaders how big a problem drive line failures have been and they said they have had very few, and overall the whole line they rent were very dependable. I didn't ask about the LT. The 2006 I rode had 48k and ran well. It is a good debate anyway!

Ken.

 

[Scythian]

Oh and please please don't be biaised. I know I'm in an FJR forum and that some people are gonna lean more towards Yamaha but please help me out here.

:blink:
FJR R0X()RS! :yahoo:

BMW SUX()RS!

 

[Flyguy]

My cousin has a GT and we have switched many times since picking up an '06 AE. He tried to sway me into the BMW but I went with the FJR for 4 reasons.

1)It was much more attractive to me.

2) My ownership experience with Yamaha products - outboards, jet drives and musical instruments has been unspoiled. Both BMW products I've owned were agrevations ultimately. If they built a saltwater outboard they would never get any fisherman to switch to their engine, especially if he ran a single.

3) The FJR has a stronger pull down low - 2,500 to 6,000 where I spend all my time. It also turns lower RPM's on the highway.

4) The FJR, farkled, is an amazing machine. PCIII, Staintunes and Ohlins make for a ride that the GT just can't compete with. And you'll have change in your pocket. Not much, but enough.

PS and once you get into the AE, you'll NEVER go back.

Check this.BMW - FJR comparisions

 

[markjenn]

Thanks for defining that problem, Mark. I really like the GS. When in Europe last fall I asked the Edelweiss leaders how big a problem drive line failures have been and they said they have had very few, and overall the whole line they rent were very dependable. I didn't ask about the LT. The 2006 I rode had 48k and ran well. It is a good debate anyway!

I know nothing about the LT problems. I had heard they use the same final drive as the other R-bikes, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're having more problems given how much heavier the LT is.

But the LT problem has very little to do with the discussion of the GT - the final drive on the GT is an entirely new design. I'm aware of only one serious, dehabilitating GT final drive problem reported so far.

These comparisons always have a contingent that simply hates BMW's. Fair enough. I can only say that I've owned a couple, have toured hundreds of thousands of miles on them without ever having a problem that has left me on the side of the road, have numerous friends I tour with who own them who have never had a serious problem, and have rented tens of BMW's in Europe and never had a serious problem. Don't get me wrong - I've had lots of niggles with BMWs over the years and certainly have had more problems than with my japanese bikes, but the basic package has been solid. There are too many GS and F650s that have been around the world many times over for the package to be as bad as some people say.

And again, I own (and love) my FJR.

- Mark

 

[nubfjr]

having owned both (2002 RT and now a 2006 FJR) I can attest that i had some issues with the BMW. Granted it was never a final drive failure but riding it on long trips always had that in the back of my mind LOL.

In any case, i had components fail on it for the 35k miles or so that i owned it...one was a slave cylinder that went on me 500 miles from home...made coming home a very stressful moment in my life. Also had a rear shock go on me as well at 30k and the last straw was the ABS modulator (that you can get new for a price of $2,000.00, but found one on ebay for 400 bucks) so once that happened i had to sell it, as it was drawing some big bucks out of my wallet for each part that failed.

Though the final drive never failed on me while riding...i had to seals go on it during the time I owned it (one replaced under warranty) and the other went at 32k.

In closing, you just can't beat the yamaha for the money and could never justify owning the beemer for $5k more. And the GT's seat is horrible from what i hear...the first thing that needs replacing is what i'm told. At least the stock yamaha seat you can sit on for 300 miles (though my butt does burn on it after awhile).

I did hear of only one failure on the GT on this forum but have heard that many have failed on the GS's...i just changed my final drive oil with every oil change just for peace of mind.

Rich

 

[Lake Powell]

I am also one rider that switched from BMW to Yamaha. My previous bike was an 03' K1200 RS, I did enjoy it, had beautiful lines, and was fairly trouble free. I was out of it for almost 2 years before I got my 07' FJR. I can afford the BMW and go on a farkle mission that is well beyond reasonable.

One thing that drove me away from the BMW, and I rode a new 07' GT, is the dealership and the network.

Here in Salt Lake City the one and only dealership simply sucks, and with going the with a GT is what I would have had to deal with again, there really isn't many other choices.

As far as the differences between the bikes, that is something that is always going to be subjective. The BMW brakes on my 03', I didn't care for them that much, they were power assisted and had just a small lag in application that all the magazines said I would get used to but never did. The tele-lever fork system was OK but felt a little vague in feed back, but didn't dive as much in braking which I liked. The frame and system parts I'll give an equal nod, there were parts of each that I have raves and shits about. The Optional BMW cruise control that I paid nearly a grand for, and broke twice, is a little better than the AVCC I installed on the FJR for less than $150 and has worked without fault. I could not fit a helmet in the side cases of the BMW that I paid $1800 for.

Again, good and bad about both, but the big element for me is the dealership network and the wider aray of accessories available to the FJR.

 

[Just Playin]

First of all, the real price difference OTD in today's market is closer to $8K

Don't think this is true, at least not if you can find GT's that are too heavily optioned and provided you negotiate just like you would with the FJR. There are many dealers selling base model GT's in the $17.5K area (+TTL), which is about $5K above the typical discounted FJR at $12.5K or so.

- Mark

Man I paid 13K and thought I really worked the guy over on my fjr. Really happy with it though. I did release the throttle spring today, and would like a good cruise control, but other than that, I loove this bike.

 

[AZrider]

I'll toss another factor into this discussion. I had a mint 2004 R1150R. I broke it in correctly following the mechanics advice. It was good bike and I put 16K miles on it over the two years I owned it. I decided I needed more protection from the elements after I started commuting to work on the bike so I went in last year and rode the BMW's with fairings to get an idea of what suited me. While I was at the dealer here in Tucson I had the bike serviced, valves, TB balance, ABS check and bleed (full) etc etc. Cost me about $575 and the mechanic said it was the cleanest R he had ever worked on.

So later I talk to the salesman about trading up.............and the prick offers me low blue book and wants sticker price for the RT! He also tells me (forgetting about the service just finished in the other room) that of course they will undoubletly have to "check it out and service it". What the f_ck! I explained that as we talked all of that was being taken care of on my money. He didn't budge, not a damn dollar. It's a used BMW he explained and we'll have to sell it. :angry2:

Anyhow what I really got pissed off about was that he tried to smoke screen the sale and then when corrected didn't even blink but still tried to screw me. I think (1) BMW was at one time a really great bike "compared to the rest". But now they're no better than Yamaha, Honda or any other modern manufacturer. (2) They add a shit load of electronics and magic crap so that you might be overwhelmed with the "engineering" whereas it's not engineering (that's pretty much standard on any good bike) but just add ons that you'll have to service and cost a bunch if they fail. You can get the same great engine and suspension on the ST or FJR and if you're too damn lazy to swing a lever then maybe you should pony up the bucks and get the Beemer.

But..........when you take that Germanic wonder back in 3 or so years to upgrade to the K1500RT don't expect to be welcomed with an honest and fair price for that $20K machine you spent good money on, just bend over and take it in the shorts.

I'll stick with the FJR. I had a great ride back from Tucson today and the bike just flowed through the turns on Hwy 83, way to go Yamaha! :yahoo:

AZ

 

[bmwhd]

Thanks for defining that problem, Mark. I really like the GS. When in Europe last fall I asked the Edelweiss leaders how big a problem drive line failures have been and they said they have had very few, and overall the whole line they rent were very dependable. I didn't ask about the LT. The 2006 I rode had 48k and ran well. It is a good debate anyway!

I know nothing about the LT problems. I had heard they use the same final drive as the other R-bikes, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're having more problems given how much heavier the LT is.

But the LT problem has very little to do with the discussion of the GT - the final drive on the GT is an entirely new design. I'm aware of only one serious, dehabilitating GT final drive problem reported so far.

These comparisons always have a contingent that simply hates BMW's. Fair enough. I can only say that I've owned a couple, have toured hundreds of thousands of miles on them without ever having a problem that has left me on the side of the road, have numerous friends I tour with who own them who have never had a serious problem, and have rented tens of BMW's in Europe and never had a serious problem. Don't get me wrong - I've had lots of niggles with BMWs over the years and certainly have had more problems than with my japanese bikes, but the basic package has been solid. There are too many GS and F650s that have been around the world many times over for the package to be as bad as some people say.

And again, I own (and love) my FJR.

- Mark

First of all, I love BMW bikes. I'll own another one soon (any /5 or /6 owners out there looking to sell?).

Second, the LT problem has a lot to do with demonstrating BMW's complete disregard for this type of problem. The GT does have the new style drive. There have been 3 reported failures so far between ADVrider.com, bmwlt.com and k-bikes.com that I've seen and several GS failures of the same design (though flipped over).