FJRF009.2: "Intermittent Ground Wire Connection"

[FJRScrewball]

Correction:

My spider problem was at #3 on RZ350's chart.

Screwball

 

[FJRScrewball]

Ok...So now I'm just as confused. Was this a spider bite or something else? Also, why would the bare connector 'arc' to the block? Aren't the spider connections just ground wires? Are they hot??

My point, exactly - and the engine, fuel gauge and fuel pump shouldn't cut out when they do.

bramfrank:

Just to prove my point I did a little test. I took the ground cable off of the battery and using a Fluke DVM, did a continuity check from the battery cable to the engine cylinder. With the meter lead tip touching the engine with normal pressure the reading was infinite resistance. If I pressed firmly the reading was 1 ohm. Tried the same thing with the frame and had the same results. My conclusion is that with the spider resting against the engine under its own weight a huge load would have been on the electrical system for that spider. Is there a coating on the engine and frame that would cause this? I don't know. Just reporting my test results.

HotRodZilla:

Yes spider connections are just ground wires. But don't confuse voltage with current. Current flows through all wires in a completed circuit. Remember Ohm's Law. Voltage = current x resistance. If voltage stays constant (12v) and resistance goes up (infinite) then current goes down. If you have no current things don't work even if you have voltage.

Both of you were assuming that anything touching the engine or frame would be at battery ground potential. But neither of you actually tested this to find out for sure.

Screwball

 

[HotRodZilla]

HotRodZilla:

Yes spider connections are just ground wires. But don't confuse voltage with current. Current flows through all wires in a completed circuit. Remember Ohm's Law. Voltage = current x resistance. If voltage stays constant (12v) and resistance goes up (infinite) then current goes down. If you have no current things don't work even if you have voltage.

Both of you were assuming that anything touching the engine or frame would be at battery ground potential. But neither of you actually tested this to find out for sure.

Screwball

Thanks for the more complete info. However, I was not assuming anything. Since I never had had a spider issue, I live this vicariously through the guys here on the forum.

I'm of the opinion that all these reported spider failures are not all spider failures. I believe some of them have to do with bad farkle wiring or diagnosis...But...I don't really know, and Alan andthese guys have way more knowledge about this stuff than me.

What caught my eye was you saying the spider had arced to the block. When I think of something arcing I picture a spark like seen when I touch a door knob after rubbing my feet on the carpet.

 

[bramfrank]

Thanks for the more complete info. However, I was not assuming anything. Since I never had had a spider issue, I live this vicariously through the guys here on the forum.

I'm of the opinion that all these reported spider failures are not all spider failures. I believe some of them have to do with bad farkle wiring or diagnosis...But...I don't really know, and Alan andthese guys have way more knowledge about this stuff than me.

What caught my eye was you saying the spider had arced to the block. When I think of something arcing I picture a spark like seen when I touch a door knob after rubbing my feet on the carpet.

It takes a fair amount of differential and current to case sparks to fly at 12 volts.

If your farkles are wired to the battery, the bike's wiring harness is out of the battery/charging loop as that is run separately - if you blew out the S4 and your bike was heavily farkled, but power was taken from the battery, it would not have been the cause on the failure.

Keep in mind that a relatively high load (a set of H3 driving lights, for example) pulls less than 10 amps in total (110 watts for the pair) - how much additional energy do you think would be dissipated in the spiders if you were to have wired them to perhaps the headlight circuit - if you lost an extra half a volt in the spiders it would be a lot, but would translate to 5 watts . . . that isn't a huge number, but likely ernough to push an already overloaded spider 'over the edge', since they fail even without that extra load,

Spiders have been failing left, right and centre on bikes with NO accessories installed.

 

[FJRScrewball]

Thanks for the more complete info. However, I was not assuming anything. Since I never had had a spider issue, I live this vicariously through the guys here on the forum.

I'm of the opinion that all these reported spider failures are not all spider failures. I believe some of them have to do with bad farkle wiring or diagnosis...But...I don't really know, and Alan andthese guys have way more knowledge about this stuff than me.

What caught my eye was you saying the spider had arced to the block. When I think of something arcing I picture a spark like seen when I touch a door knob after rubbing my feet on the carpet.

It takes a fair amount of differential and current to case sparks to fly at 12 volts.

Have you never used jumper cables and seen the spark and heard the arc when connecting the last cable to the batteries grounding post?

There is enough amperage in a motorcyle battery to cause sparking by itself, but when the bike is running and the charging system is working and recharging the battery there is even more . The voltage measured across your battery terminals when the bike is not running is approximately 12v. When the bike is running it is higher due to the charging system. If the resistance in the circuit hasn't changed then for the voltage to be higher the current must have increased. Referring back to Ohm's Law.

Screwball

 

[bramfrank]

The sparks happen when you BREAK the circuit - and that's because a car battery is trying to drive a multi-hundred amp load to whch a dead battery is connected.

Yes, you cou;ld cause a nice spark by shorting out the battery of your bike's battery, but we're not driving huge loads here, just bypassing a short piece of wire to which in theory the sidestand switch is connected - no big currents or voltage differentials.

1 Ohm, 12 volts = 12 amps max (14.2 if the alternator was delivering the regulated charging voltage), but only if you were shorting the entire voltage. But this is ground-to-ground and you'd need to be close to ground potential on both sides of the meter (yes, there could be some differential through resistive loss - or maybe total drop because the Spider was completely open) - so assuming that the Spider was good as has been asserted let's call it a volt max for argument's sake which means one amp/12 watts (though I'm certain that FJRScrewball could measure it with his meter and let us know how much that differential is) - this isn't big energy we're discussing.

 

[LAF]

I still say it was a spider failure. In my 10 those two spiders were laid over and if not touching, close, they are not melted. There are plenty of "plastic" connectors touching or close on the FJR and just about any car you stick your head under the hood and look. And my Turbo gets hot! I believe it was a spider induced incident. I did pull those spiders apart and one had a bit of corrosion and one as new.

Here is the pics and post I made on these two connectors.

Spider Treatment

 

[FJRScrewball]

The sparks happen when you BREAK the circuit - and that's because a car battery is trying to drive a multi-hundred amp load to whch a dead battery is connected.

1. I have often seen sparks when connecting jumper cables to a dead battery not when disconnecting them. That is why I was taught to make the final negative cable connection to a location away from the battery just in case there were explosive fumes near the battery.

2. Loads are measured in resistance or impedence not amps. Amps are a measurement of current. In the case of a battery it would be the current flowing from the negative to positive posts due to the chemical reaction inside the battery itself. This is present even if the battery has nothing attached to either post. Thats why you can measure voltage across the posts, because there is current.

3. You must have missed the part of an earlier post where I said that unless I pressed firmly with the tip of the meter lead to the engine it read infinite resistance. And that the spider resting against the engine would have seen the same thing, infinite resistance. And so whatever circuits the spider was providing a ground to would have also seen infinite resistance not the 1 ohm of resistance it should have seen. That kind of resistance or load added to the circuit would have prevented it from functioning.

Screwball

 

[FJRScrewball]

I still say it was a spider failure. In my 10 those two spiders were laid over and if not touching, close, they are not melted. There are plenty of "plastic" connectors touching or close on the FJR and just about any car you stick your head under the hood and look. And my Turbo gets hot! I believe it was a spider induced incident. I did pull those spiders apart and one had a bit of corrosion and one as new.

Here is the pics and post I made on these two connectors.

Spider Treatment

Your spider does show signs of oxidation. Mine did not. I only wish I had taken a picture of it to prove it to everyone.

My 2010 has 19k+ miles on it. I don't know how long the spiders cover was resting against the engine, maybe all 19k miles, maybe not. But I do know it melted from the outside.

Screwball

 

[LAF]

I still say it was a spider failure. In my 10 those two spiders were laid over and if not touching, close, they are not melted. There are plenty of "plastic" connectors touching or close on the FJR and just about any car you stick your head under the hood and look. And my Turbo gets hot! I believe it was a spider induced incident. I did pull those spiders apart and one had a bit of corrosion and one as new.

Here is the pics and post I made on these two connectors.

Spider Treatment

Your spider does show signs of oxidation. Mine did not. I only wish I had taken a picture of it to prove it to everyone.

My 2010 has 19k+ miles on it. I don't know how long the spiders cover was resting against the engine, maybe all 19k miles, maybe not. But I do know it melted from the outside.

Screwball

No worries on the pics. If you say it was melted it was. I can only say as my pic shows one of mine was oxidizing and one was clean as new. I personally have never seen a connector of this type melted by heat, but have seen many from wiring or electrical issues.

Since we are red headed step children with freckles riding 2010 models that have no spider issues, all bets are off on spider melt downs. I know I will be on mine with some wire ties now!

And at 0 miles I installed a flavor of spider bite prevention, I would suggest all do the same.

And anyone with issues on a '10 please report it so we can have some fun with aux. Yamaha harnesses and recalls!

 

[bramfrank]

The sparks happen when you BREAK the circuit - and that's because a car battery is trying to drive a multi-hundred amp load to which a dead battery is connected.

1. I have often seen sparks when connecting jumper cables to a dead battery not when disconnecting them. That is why I was taught to make the final negative cable connection to a location away from the battery just in case there were explosive fumes near the battery.

2. Loads are measured in resistance or impedence not amps. Amps are a measurement of current. In the case of a battery it would be the current flowing from the negative to positive posts due to the chemical reaction inside the battery itself. This is present even if the battery has nothing attached to either post. Thats why you can measure voltage across the posts, because there is current.

3. You must have missed the part of an earlier post where I said that unless I pressed firmly with the tip of the meter lead to the engine it read infinite resistance. And that the spider resting against the engine would have seen the same thing, infinite resistance. And so whatever circuits the spider was providing a ground to would have also seen infinite resistance not the 1 ohm of resistance it should have seen. That kind of resistance or load added to the circuit would have prevented it from functioning.

Screwball

You see sparks on 'make' because the connection tends to bounce as you break through built up crud and oxidation. The only time you would EVER see sparks on a true 'make' would be high voltage air gap arcing - and 12 volts (or a 1 volt differential) just doesn't cut it.

You might see 'impedance' related sparking on the disconnection of an inductive load - on our bikes coils (which are digitally driven), relays, motors (in the fuel pump and windshield), the alternator and the horn. What of those would be implicated - and even then, only on disconnection?

I, for one didn't miss that you needed to press hard to get a reading - that simply means that there would be little to NO current through casual contact between the components because of oxidation and crud . . . . So, if you had 'infinite resistance, and the cover was melted, how do you think the connection between the spider and the engine would be

a. sparking?

b. somehow implicated in your bike shutting down?

If the problem was due to a lack of ground potential to that part of the wiring harness, it would have to have been that the connector was not providing continuity between the ground feed and the various circuits served by that connector.

Everything you've posted points to a connection failure, most likely in the spider. Not all corrosion discolors the connector. You really should be filing a report with the NHTSA because bikes are not supposed to be shutting down spontaneously - very, very dangerous while underway..

People gave me lots of flack when I started the campaign to get the bike recalled for the original S4/6/7 spider issues (and I was only partly successful - they dealt with the S4 only). I suppose that if 2010+ models have a similar design fault it will need to be dealt with as well . . . . .

 

[beemerdons]

Perhaps you Generation Two FJR Fellows are just low on the wiring harness smoke.

My first three bikes back in the sixties were all British: Triumph, BSA and Norton.

You occasionally had to replace the smoke with Lucas Part #530433; made in UK.

 

[FJRScrewball]

The sparks happen when you BREAK the circuit - and that's because a car battery is trying to drive a multi-hundred amp load to which a dead battery is connected.

1. I have often seen sparks when connecting jumper cables to a dead battery not when disconnecting them. That is why I was taught to make the final negative cable connection to a location away from the battery just in case there were explosive fumes near the battery.

2. Loads are measured in resistance or impedence not amps. Amps are a measurement of current. In the case of a battery it would be the current flowing from the negative to positive posts due to the chemical reaction inside the battery itself. This is present even if the battery has nothing attached to either post. Thats why you can measure voltage across the posts, because there is current.

3. You must have missed the part of an earlier post where I said that unless I pressed firmly with the tip of the meter lead to the engine it read infinite resistance. And that the spider resting against the engine would have seen the same thing, infinite resistance. And so whatever circuits the spider was providing a ground to would have also seen infinite resistance not the 1 ohm of resistance it should have seen. That kind of resistance or load added to the circuit would have prevented it from functioning.

Screwball

You see sparks on 'make' because the connection tends to bounce as you break through built up crud and oxidation. The only time you would EVER see sparks on a true 'make' would be high voltage air gap arcing - and 12 volts (or a 1 volt differential) just doesn't cut it.

You might see 'impedance' related sparking on the disconnection of an inductive load - on our bikes coils (which are digitally driven), relays, motors (in the fuel pump and windshield), the alternator and the horn. What of those would be implicated - and even then, only on disconnection?

I, for one didn't miss that you needed to press hard to get a reading - that simply means that there would be little to NO current through casual contact between the components because of oxidation and crud . . . . So, if you had 'infinite resistance, and the cover was melted, how do you think the connection between the spider and the engine would be

a. sparking?

b. somehow implicated in your bike shutting down?

If the problem was due to a lack of ground potential to that part of the wiring harness, it would have to have been that the connector was not providing continuity between the ground feed and the various circuits served by that connector.

Everything you've posted points to a connection failure, most likely in the spider. Not all corrosion discolors the connector. You really should be filing a report with the NHTSA because bikes are not supposed to be shutting down spontaneously - very, very dangerous while underway..

People gave me lots of flack when I started the campaign to get the bike recalled for the original S4/6/7 spider issues (and I was only partly successful - they dealt with the S4 only). I suppose that if 2010+ models have a similar design fault it will need to be dealt with as well . . . . .

I'm NOT reporting my problem to the NHTSA.

My problem as originally stated was due to a clean, non-corroded, non-oxidized #3 spider who's cover came into contact with the engine and melted a hole in it allowing the spider shorting bar to make contact with the engine.

During testing I discovered that only while pressing firmly with the meter leads on a clean, non-oxidized area of the engine or frame or engine mount bolt did my test meter read 1 ohm of resistance. Using normal contact pressure such as the spider would have if laying against the engine the meter read infinite resistance.

Anyone who understands electrical circuits will know that this resistance would be put into series with any circuit the spider was supplying a ground for and cause the flow of current to those circuits to stop. No heat would be created by this because heat is caused by excessive current not the lack of it and it could not have caused the spider to melt.

I do suggest securing all spiders so that they cannot come into contact with the engine.

This IS my last post on this subject.

Screwball

 

[FJRScrewball]

Perhaps you Generation Two FJR Fellows are just low on the wiring harness smoke.

My first three bikes back in the sixties were all British: Triumph, BSA and Norton.

You occasionally had to replace the smoke with Lucas Part #530433; made in UK.

Thanks. I knew I was forgetting something.

 

[bramfrank]

The sparks happen when you BREAK the circuit - and that's because a car battery is trying to drive a multi-hundred amp load to which a dead battery is connected.

1. I have often seen sparks when connecting jumper cables to a dead battery not when disconnecting them. That is why I was taught to make the final negative cable connection to a location away from the battery just in case there were explosive fumes near the battery.

2. Loads are measured in resistance or impedence not amps. Amps are a measurement of current. In the case of a battery it would be the current flowing from the negative to positive posts due to the chemical reaction inside the battery itself. This is present even if the battery has nothing attached to either post. Thats why you can measure voltage across the posts, because there is current.

3. You must have missed the part of an earlier post where I said that unless I pressed firmly with the tip of the meter lead to the engine it read infinite resistance. And that the spider resting against the engine would have seen the same thing, infinite resistance. And so whatever circuits the spider was providing a ground to would have also seen infinite resistance not the 1 ohm of resistance it should have seen. That kind of resistance or load added to the circuit would have prevented it from functioning.

Screwball

You see sparks on 'make' because the connection tends to bounce as you break through built up crud and oxidation. The only time you would EVER see sparks on a true 'make' would be high voltage air gap arcing - and 12 volts (or a 1 volt differential) just doesn't cut it.

You might see 'impedance' related sparking on the disconnection of an inductive load - on our bikes coils (which are digitally driven), relays, motors (in the fuel pump and windshield), the alternator and the horn. What of those would be implicated - and even then, only on disconnection?

I, for one didn't miss that you needed to press hard to get a reading - that simply means that there would be little to NO current through casual contact between the components because of oxidation and crud . . . . So, if you had 'infinite resistance, and the cover was melted, how do you think the connection between the spider and the engine would be

a. sparking?

b. somehow implicated in your bike shutting down?

If the problem was due to a lack of ground potential to that part of the wiring harness, it would have to have been that the connector was not providing continuity between the ground feed and the various circuits served by that connector.

Everything you've posted points to a connection failure, most likely in the spider. Not all corrosion discolors the connector. You really should be filing a report with the NHTSA because bikes are not supposed to be shutting down spontaneously - very, very dangerous while underway..

People gave me lots of flack when I started the campaign to get the bike recalled for the original S4/6/7 spider issues (and I was only partly successful - they dealt with the S4 only). I suppose that if 2010+ models have a similar design fault it will need to be dealt with as well . . . . .

I'm NOT reporting my problem to the NHTSA.

My problem as originally stated was due to a clean, non-corroded, non-oxidized #3 spider who's cover came into contact with the engine and melted a hole in it allowing the spider shorting bar to make contact with the engine.

During testing I discovered that only while pressing firmly with the meter leads on a clean, non-oxidized area of the engine or frame or engine mount bolt did my test meter read 1 ohm of resistance. Using normal contact pressure such as the spider would have if laying against the engine the meter read infinite resistance.

Anyone who understands electrical circuits will know that this resistance would be put into series with any circuit the spider was supplying a ground for and cause the flow of current to those circuits to stop. No heat would be created by this because heat is caused by excessive current not the lack of it and it could not have caused the spider to melt.

I do suggest securing all spiders so that they cannot come into contact with the engine.

This IS my last post on this subject.

Screwball

It may be your last post, but it creates more questions than it answers;

1. You claimed arciong - can;t get arcing with infinite resistance.

2. You claimed engine failure because the spider came in contact with the engine - impossible if the resistance was infinite. And also impossible if the two points were at the same (or similar) potential.

Whether the engine melted the cap or not, the problem was, according to you due to something in the spider and the engine shut down while underway. The shutdown is the reason why you should be reporting the matter to the NHTSA. If you believe that the engine can be spontaneously shut down because the spider is not secured, then that is what you should be reporting - no one needs to be hurt or killed because Yamaha left out (as far as you believe) a tie wrap to secure the connector.

It is a safety issue.

 

[Warren FJR]

It may be your last post, but it creates more questions than it answers;

1. You claimed arciong - can;t get arcing with infinite resistance.

2. You claimed engine failure because the spider came in contact with the engine - impossible if the resistance was infinite. And also impossible if the two points were at the same (or similar) potential.

Whether the engine melted the cap or not, the problem was, according to you due to something in the spider and the engine shut down while underway. The shutdown is the reason why you should be reporting the matter to the NHTSA. If you believe that the engine can be spontaneously shut down because the spider is not secured, then that is what you should be reporting - no one needs to be hurt or killed because Yamaha left out (as far as you believe) a tie wrap to secure the connector.

It is a safety issue.

I agree with bramfrank's last post. If my 2010 FJR shutdown while riding I would've had it towed straight to the dealer and called Yamaha Corporate to investigate the (Spider??) issue. I don't care what is at what potential and what's reading where. An FJR Shutting down while riding IS a SERIOUS saftey issue. I as well would also contact NHTSA.

 

[bramfrank]

Cracks me up that some a**wipe rep-bombed me on my last post. Seems to happen a lot when I step up and address issues here. Very mature.

 

[dbx]

Loads are measured in resistance or impedence not amps.

In a previous life, many years ago, I was taught that a load is measured by the amount of current it draws, but that was military training and you know how they are.

In the case of a battery it would be the current flowing from the negative to positive posts due to the chemical reaction inside the battery itself. This is present even if the battery has nothing attached to either post. Thats why you can measure voltage across the posts, because there is current.

I thought you could measure the voltage across the terminals of a battery because the measuring device itself provides a path for current to flow. Current flowing from negative to positive within the battery itself is simply a form of self-discharge, and won't show up on the meter.

I'm NOT reporting my problem to the NHTSA.

I'm with the others who think you should, for the simple fact that a modern motorcycle, in presumed good repair, shouldn't be shutting down by itself while being ridden. By itself, that's a serious safety hazard.

My problem as originally stated was due to a clean, non-corroded, non-oxidized #3 spider who's cover came into contact with the engine and melted a hole in it allowing the spider shorting bar to make contact with the engine.

During testing I discovered that only while pressing firmly with the meter leads on a clean, non-oxidized area of the engine or frame or engine mount bolt did my test meter read 1 ohm of resistance. Using normal contact pressure such as the spider would have if laying against the engine the meter read infinite resistance.

Anyone who understands electrical circuits will know that this resistance would be put into series with any circuit the spider was supplying a ground for and cause the flow of current to those circuits to stop. No heat would be created by this because heat is caused by excessive current not the lack of it and it could not have caused the spider to melt.

I don't understand how this infinite resistance (spider cap to engine or frame) would have inserted itself into the existing circuit, placing itself in series with the existing circuit. Seems to me it would be in parallel with the existing circuit. In series, infinite resistance would indeed essentially 'open' the circuit, stopping all current flow, but in parallel it wouldn't have much of an effect at all since both the spider cap and the engine/frame are at nearly the same potential, i.e., ground. My conclusion, based on the reported symptoms, is that it was a classic spider bite and should therefore be reported to the NHTSA.

 

[Warren FJR]

Cracks me up that some a**wipe rep-bombed me on my last post. Seems to happen a lot when I step up and address issues here. Very mature.

You should re-read my post. I did not rep-bomb you. I agreed with you. You must be a difficult person to get along with when you dont get your way. Nice language by the way Very Mature! Out.

 

[bramfrank]

Warren;

My post had nothing to with your text.

Someone had hit the little red button at the lower right side of each post - then after my post someone hit the green one, which offset the red one - it had nothing to do with anyone's textual posts and I realised that yours was in support of my position . . . so, I'm sorry if you felt offended. You needn't have.

The system of 'reputation' that this board maintains for each user's profile is often abused, hence my comments.

And, oif course two other people then went and pressed the red button again . . . . so you get an idea of the nature of the stupidity.