Fuel Injector clean and match

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radman

R.I.P. Our Motorcycling Friend
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A while back I found a sweet deal on a complete TB set, including fuel rail, injectors, Map and TPS, for $75. Come to find that if I send all 8 injectors to FactoryPro they'll clean and match as close to possible 4 of them, and if they keep the extra 4, the service will be free. This way, they begin to build an inventory for future match/repair/replacement. I see it as a way to have accurate data on the 4 matches, and be able to 0 out (or come close to) the factory ECU fudge factor displayed in the Diag function for pulse adjustment that the Barbarian Mod accesses and modifies. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of this-may be nothing, but the closer I come to tuning perfection, the more I like it. I may also have figgered out a way to modify the crank trigger wheel to add a degree or two of advance, similar to the Advance Kits one sees for sale on a lot of liter bikes, Busas etc. Winter can be fun if you put yer mind to it....... :p

 
I have no idea what he was talking about.

I thought he was gonna use a match to clean his fuel injectors.

That's what I really wanted to see.

signed,

Disappointed.

 
A while back I found a sweet deal on a complete TB set, including fuel rail, injectors, Map and TPS, for $75. Come to find that if I send all 8 injectors to FactoryPro they'll clean and match as close to possible 4 of them, and if they keep the extra 4, the service will be free. This way, they begin to build an inventory for future match/repair/replacement. I see it as a way to have accurate data on the 4 matches, and be able to 0 out (or come close to) the factory ECU fudge factor displayed in the Diag function for pulse adjustment that the Barbarian Mod accesses and modifies. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of this-may be nothing, but the closer I come to tuning perfection, the more I like it. I may also have figgered out a way to modify the crank trigger wheel to add a degree or two of advance, similar to the Advance Kits one sees for sale on a lot of liter bikes, Busas etc. Winter can be fun if you put yer mind to it....... :p


Actually a much better idea than you may think. The "perfect" cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution associated with port fuel injection is only as good as the individual injectors are. Standard industry tolerances are usally plus or minus 3 % for injector flow so if you happen to have a plus 3 % injector next to a minus 3 % injector the distribution is as bad as a carbureted setup might be...or worse. Matching injectors during engine development and for specific certification emission development vehicles is pretty much normal. If the guys doing the flow testing and matching can do an accurate job it isn't such a bad idea but you are really not likely to notice much difference in the long run as most engine calibrations are designed to take the injector tolerance into account and are usually pretty insensitive to the slight differences.

 
We'll see. They will only have the 8 I provide, barring a discovery that the Feej injector is not unique, so the likelyhood of a 2% spread, which would be ideal, is doubtful. But if nothing else, I'll at least know where they're at, and will be able to adjust accordingly. Thats the plan anyway.

 
Actually a much better idea than you may think. The "perfect" cylinder to cylinder fuel distribution associated with port fuel injection is only as good as the individual injectors are. Standard industry tolerances are usally plus or minus 3 % for injector flow so if you happen to have a plus 3 % injector next to a minus 3 % injector the distribution is as bad as a carbureted setup might be...or worse. Matching injectors during engine development and for specific certification emission development vehicles is pretty much normal. If the guys doing the flow testing and matching can do an accurate job it isn't such a bad idea but you are really not likely to notice much difference in the long run as most engine calibrations are designed to take the injector tolerance into account and are usually pretty insensitive to the slight differences.
I love your posts Jestal! I wish I was smart enough to understand all of what you say, but still, I like the technical information that you impart.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

 
Q for Jestal... Do you know if the pre-sorting of injectors before assembly includes accuracy rating based on a performance curve, or is it just at one frequency/speed?

I know the drag race guys plot a full range curve and match injectors accordingly. I suppose if Rad gets curve-matched injectors versus a (possibly) static/mean matched stock set, he might see more than a 3% matching gain.

Rad, shouldn't you take up plastic surgery and breast implants if you are determined to match things that well? Surely it would be a more enjoyable task?

:D

 
Rad, shouldn't you take up plastic surgery and breast implants if you are determined to match things that well? Surely it would be a more enjoyable task? :D
The pictures would at least be better...

 
I dug this thread back up to add I finally have enough down time to send mine in next week. Has anyone else did this excellent upgrade to your bikes fuel system to make possibly less vibration & slight performance gains ?

rad, What is your overall impression after having done this ?

 
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Never tested my FJR but the duc's were off 7%. Ducati swapped injectors until they found a matching set. Oh, and it did make a real difference in performance in drive ability & bottom end.

 
It was worth it, but remember-it cost me nothing other than 4 old questionable injectors. The only real reason I did it was to find a work around for the variable settings Yammi set the bike up with-and I did, but also to do a little research. All 4 of my injectors are at the same setting on the diag screen, 12-14 depending on temp and if I feel like bumping them from a normal 12. I did find a few things in all this. The setting affects them throughout the range of operation, not just lower rpms like many believe-but the o2 takes over if still in operation, it isn't on Frank, hasn't been for a very long time. Too rich causes more vibes than too lean, though both directions can affect vibration if too far outta whack. Warm temps like it leaner (duh). Takes a bump of 4-6 to feel a difference-but moving 1 or 2 at a time in search of perfection can be done-till the temp changes on ya. Is it worth paying for? Not in my opinion, unless you suspect a problem-the Feej just isn't that highly tuned.

 
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$120 and shipping is a bit but if I can get less vibes I'd be happy. It seems bumping the settings evenly would be much simpler than bumping the factory settings. They seem to be a guess by the factory since most all have the same settings ?

 
I've always assumed the co settings reflected the variances in the injectors themselves-Gen I bikes seemed to confirm this as the settings, once learned, were all over the place. The Gen II thing has troubled me-it would seem something else had come into play, IF it was true that many bikes had the exact same settings-which doesn't really make sense to me. Yamaha most likely tunes the motor before it leaves the factory-setting the injectors to establish consistent CO readings across the 4 cylinders. Unless the cylinders themselves have wildly varied inconsistencies, the injectors would ordinarily be very close to each other in co settings. But, on the Gen I's, like mine, the settings varied from +21 to a -3-a pretty wide spread (Franks settings). So, either Gen II's have a consistently inconsistent variance (tough to wrap my lips around that statement), something else has recently (or always has?) come into play if they are setting a whole range of bikes to the same exact numbers. Which would blow my theory all to hell. As has been stated many times-the only sure way to know is to open up the individual exhaust runners and pull a CO reading from each hole. I've come close-the Holeshot header allows me to pull numbers off of pairs of cylinders-unaltered by catalytic converters, the numbers are fairly true-and with the flowed injectors, all set to the same CO reading on the display, the numbers are so closely aligned as to suggest that the CO alterations are to adjust for discrepancies in the individual injectors. Soon after I installed them, a mis-fire developed, which I suspected was an injector gone sour after being screwed with-CO was sky high on the right side pair-but a bad plug wire connection turned out to be the culprit. Having already replaced the suspect injector (#3), a CO test showed little difference between the flowed injectors and the unflowed replacement-but it was there, however slight. Bumping number three 4 points evened up the numbers. Subsequently, the bike ran great until the motor started getting rough, and was EXTREMELY sensitive to TBS synch. Thinking I had screwed the pooch with the whole deal, I had resigned myself to just buying 4 new injectors and being done with it, until a post by another forum member suggested a problem with the large electrical connector just under the neck, and sure enough, mine had the very same corrosion. Cleaned up, Frank runs great. I cannot stand ANY vibration from the motor, and so do a TBS synch about once a week (yes, it goes out of whack that often, nature of the beast), but as a result, Frank is almost perfectly vibe free. For those that think this is excessive, medical issues insist that I absolutely minimize right hand buzz, or I quit riding. I can synch Frank in 10 minutes, tank on to tank on, so it's not like it's intrusive-besides, I like keeping him in top form. It has suggested to me though that as sophisticated as modern fueling systems have become, the old problem of keeping 4 completely individual cylinders, each with it's own air and fuel mixing device, operating as 1 is still very much with us, not much better than 4 CV carbs, or, God save us, 4 Amals or for that matter 4 SU's. ;) Great for power and fine tuning, but rarely all on the same page without constant attention.

 
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I guess what I'm thinking is I could get the injectors matched & that would put my CO settings near zero then I could add + 4 to +8 to get in the correct range rather than the +5, +18, +18, +20 that they are at now. Am I understanding this correctly ? I think (dangerous) this would close as I'm not liking the fact that most '06s were the same settings. I have an extra stock header that I need to check into removing the cat & adding bungs for checking ex gases, if reasonable enough it would be the way to go. Just need a good source for some kind of bunghole adaptor to be welded in place. May possibly just weld a nut over a hole on all 4.

 
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Thanks rad ! Wouldn't they restrict he flow ? Obviously not enough or you wouldn't reccomend them. What size/style should I get ? A size the probes can fit eh ?

 
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I sure wish Radman would move to Creston, Crzy8 could use his love and care.. :wub:
+100 and Don, we could always ride over to Rad's house and even possibly do lunch, I'm sure he wouldn't mind....just a thought. PM. <>< ;)

 
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Radman informs us:

"I cannot stand ANY vibration from the motor, and so do a TBS synch about once a week"

You're giving those aluminum threads which accept the two front fuel tank bolts a hell of a workout. Or have you installed a "quick release" mechanism which does not require the removal of those two bolts to raise the tank?

Those bolts are quite long but they have very fine threads. Maybe you use a screwdriver type tool so you can't apply much torque to the bolts.

I stripped the threads for one FJR bolt. When I was attaching the steel lower guide brackets for my '04 sidecases I overtorqued one of the four bolts. Those bolts have fine threads into aluminum. I don't like the use of fine threads in aluminum.

 
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