GenII won't start

[JustHoward]

Since the time I bought this bike new, I have had intermittent trouble starting after the bike has been unused for two weeks or more. The starter turns over the motor at what sounds like the appropriate speed, but there is no 'catching'--no ignition. It seems like there is no fuel

I was told to cycle the key on and off several times to let the fuel pump build pressure. Sometimes, when I do this, this bike starts right up. But other times, like yesterday, nothing I could do would start the bike. I ran down the battery, hooked up a battery charger, and after ten or so tries, the thing finally kicked over.

What's wrong? help. pls.

Howard

 

[Monty]

Probably a good idea to leave the bike on a battery tender.

 

[SkooterG]

When it does this, do you try starting using WFO throttle?

My only other advice would be to buy a Gen I.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Any chance you are starting the bike periodically and NOT allowing it to fully warm up??? That's the best way I know to cause the problem you describe.

ALWAYS allow the bike to reach 1-2 bars on the temperature gauge before shutting off the engine. If it's still on fast idle, let it run until idle drops to the normal 1,050 RPM range.

Also, check your idle RPM and make sure that when it's completely warmed up, that it does indeed idle at 1,000 - 1,100 RPM. Adjust if not (see Owner's Manual) Too low of an idle setting can make starting difficult.

Battery tender as listed above.

Sta-Bil or SeaFoam or some other type of fuel treatment in the tank BEFORE the fuel is one month old or older. Store it FULL and use it completely every three months, or drain, refill with fresh, treat with Sta-Bil and run the engine to two bars before parking the bike.

I think I'm done here.

 

[ionbeam]

What Greg said about WFO. The most common problem is a flooded condition. What Jeff said too, to prevent flooding.

Other things to try or check, hopefully to pinpoint the actual root cause:

• next time it won't start go through the work of pulling the plugs and see if they are wet
• pop open your tank and see if it vents
• if you are low on gas put your bike on the center stand
• make sure the bike is in neutral so there is less possible drag on the engine
• check diAG for stored codes
• use diAG to turn on the fuel pump relay
• use diAG to fire the individual injectors to confirm they are working
• use diAG to fire the coils to confirm they are working
• confirm that battery voltage is 10.4 volts or greater when cranking
• confirm the TPS is reading 16-17 with the throttle closed
• Once the engine finally starts, does it come up to normal fast idle?

There is at least one anecdotal report that when a person had a suspected flooded engine he fired the coils via diAG, heard a POP and then in the run mode the engine started right up.

If you pulled the plugs and they are wet, dry or swap them out. If the engine fires right up that confirms the flooding and points you to troubleshooting the flooding.

If the gas tank either inhales or exhales then starts up you are looking at venting.

As the cranking voltage goes down, the coils have less energy as they fire the plugs. Weak spark makes for a hard start. The coils should fire even down as low as 9 volts, but couple the weak spark with a slow crank and you will have a no-start.

If the engine doesn't come up to a normal fast idle speed the high idle circuit on the fuel rail may not be working or the ECU is reading an erroneous sensor such as the coolant temperature.

There have been reports of carbon holding valves open and sticking rings creating low compression. The dealer messes with things related to the low compression and the engine finally starts and runs. I dunno if they actually fixed something or the engine just started. If there is carbon floating around that is big and strong enough to hold a valve off the seat it may also find its way into a plug and create a weak or no fire condition. Four cylinder engines don't like to cold start with just three cylinders firing.

 

[NMRoadRunner]

I'm not sure you can "Flood" a fuel injected motor. The ECU and oxygen sensors won't add fuel unless it's properly burning the existing fuel passing through the system. It will detect unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust. Rolling the throttle open will not allow more fuel into the system unless the ECU calls for more, if the ECU is operating properly. I'm thinking not enough fuel pressure from the fuel pump to pass through the injectors properly.

 

[ionbeam]

I'm not sure you can "Flood" a fuel injected motor...he ECU and oxygen sensors won't add fuel unless it's properly burning the existing fuel passing through the system. It will detect unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust... I'm thinking not enough fuel pressure from the fuel pump to pass through the injectors properly.

If the engine was not previously allowed to warm up until the Fuel Enrichment and High Idle routine completed the cylinders can be 'wet' when the key is turned off. Then, on restart the ECU runs the full cold start enrichment routine adding to the previously wetted cylinders. The ECU runs open loop until the coolant thermostat opens up signaling a warm engine. Only then will the ECU start to look for certain situations where it will use the O2 sensor to run in the feedback mode. The Gen II does have a heated O2 sensor to get it available sooner than a Gen I, but the ECU will only look for the O2 sensor under specific conditions. Definitely not the same as your car.

If a fuel injector was clogged or the fuel pump or fuel pressure were not working properly the no-start condition would be common and not sporadic like 'Howard is experiencing.

 

[JustHoward]

The last time I started the bike was to move it 25 feet from my driveway, where I was washing it, into the garage. The engine ran for less than 1 minute, so it was not warmed up before i shut it down. Maybe this is the problem, but----why should this cause a bad start the next time?

While trying to start the bike at these times, I do 'play' with the throttle, going from full closed to full open. I've never smelled gas, and the throttle playing doesn't seem to make a difference.

The battery is brand new and was fully charged.

One of the mechanics at the dealership said it could be the fuel pump, which they are willing to replace under YES warranty. It's almost like the fuel pump somehow loses its prime. Can this happen?

Howard

 

[ionbeam]

...The engine ran for less than 1 minute, so it was not warmed up before i shut it down. Maybe this is the problem, but----why should this cause a bad start the next time?...One of the mechanics at the dealership said it could be the fuel pump...It's almost like the fuel pump somehow loses its prime. Can this happen?

We just had a bit of a cross post, I answered part of your questions in the post just before yours by a few minutes.

The Gen II fuel pump pushes and does not suck other than through the fuel pickup so there should be no way for it to lose prime. If the fuel pickup was clogged enough to cause starting issues it would also cause driving problems.

The next time you start your FJR, ride away immediately and run the tach up to 4-5k rpm then chop the throttle off abruptly. The popping noise you hear in the exhaust is excess hydrocarbons being burned off by the Air Injection System. Proof positive that the combustion process of a cold FJR engine doesn't burn off all the fuel being supplied from the ECU cold run routine.

 

[NMRoadRunner]

I can't argue with logic, I'm not a women. I've never had this problem before, but I don't touch the throttle when I start up, just push the little starter button. Hope you get it resolved.

 

[SkooterG]

While trying to start the bike at these times, I do 'play' with the throttle, going from full closed to full open. I've never smelled gas, and the throttle playing doesn't seem to make a difference.

Don't 'Play' with the throttle. Keep it WFO. Sheeesh. You friggin Gen II car-tire whack-Os - never can figure out what you are supposed to play with.

 

[Blue Crab]

I said this in another thread too, when you turn the key, make sure you hear the high-pitch whir of the fuel pump priming the system. I had a similar issue with my Ducati where the fuel pump relay contacts went bad and were making an intermittent connection. Replaced both relays and no problems since.

 

[wfooshee]

The last time I started the bike was to move it 25 feet from my driveway, where I was washing it, into the garage. The engine ran for less than 1 minute, so it was not warmed up before i shut it down. Maybe this is the problem, but----why should this cause a bad start the next time?

Like Alan said, maybe you were typing while he was typing, but the question is answered right above the question.

When cold, the bike runs really really rich, and lots of the fuel spray condenses into unburnable larger drops rather than the atomized spray, simply because the engine is cold. That's why the startup mixture is so rich, because so little of the injected fuel actually remains useful.

If you don't let the bike warm up, that uncombusted fuel just sits there in the intake system and cylinders and simply adds to the accumulation from the injectors next time the bike is started. That's the flooding being spoken of, and the only way to clear it is to run a LOT of air through the motor, thus wide-open throttle when starting a non-firing flooded engine. The idea is that since the fuel has condensed into drops too large to burn fast enough to produce power, hopefully you can blow them out the exhaust with enough air moving through the motor. Lots of air helps lean the mixture down, too, hopefully to a point it will actually ignite.

If you've got a no-start condition and you know you shut down previously while still cold, then hold the throttle open, don't play with it, hold it wide open while cranking. Crank for a few seconds, and stop, so you don't burn up the starter. Repeat. It will start in a few tries.

 

[RadioHowie]

I was told to cycle the key on and off several times to let the fuel pump build pressure. Sometimes, when I do this, this bike starts right up.

Ignition switch recall completed? Perhaps a funky switch might not be switching correctly.

Just a WAG.

 

[SkooterG]

I was told to cycle the key on and off several times to let the fuel pump build pressure. Sometimes, when I do this, this bike starts right up.

Ignition switch recall completed? Perhaps a funky switch might not be switching correctly.

Just a WAG.

And a bad one. This is not an ignition switch issue. When ignition switches go, they are DEAD.

 

[JustHoward]

When trying to start the engine with a wide open throttle, doesn't the throttle position sensor notice that the throttle is open and prevent the bike from starting?

 

[ionbeam]

When trying to start the engine with a wide open throttle, doesn't the throttle position sensor notice that the throttle is open and prevent the bike from starting?

No.

Wow, that was too easy The ECU reads the TPS and sees that the throttle is 100% open but the software does allow the engine to start in this condition anyway. For sure.

 

[wfooshee]

When it starts, you'll want to release the throttle pretty soon. Basically as soon as it fires. Because it will rev! At least, once all the cylinders clear and it starts firing all four.

 

[SkooterG]

When trying to start the engine with a wide open throttle, doesn't the throttle position sensor notice that the throttle is open and prevent the bike from starting?

Howard, if that was the case why would a bunch of us experienced fart smellers be recommending you do that?

Don't think, just do.