Good article on Gas, octane, and Ethanol

[Waaane]

Ethanol or straight gas? 87 or 91 octane? To MTBE or not to MTBE? Nope...thats not the question either. Which one roasts the chestnuts better on a nice warm day when the tanks getting low and you wanna get home? Now thats a pertinent question

 

[jestal]

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[Mark G]

How do you explain Brazil, if the stuff is so lousy?

I don't know if it is bad or not, not having used any that I know of, but Brazil, hey, they're eat up with ethanol as fuel.

 

[jestal]

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[GalaxyBlue]

phew!!! My head is spinning again!!

jestal...

Thanks again for chiming in and setting us straight. your posts are always a learning experience! :clapping:

 

[HondaCBX6]

I have used regular gas in the FJR since new with no problems. I won't use premium for manny of the reasons stated. Espescially the fact that the premium is generally not purschased and is old. The FJR runs great with no detonation. When in the higher altitudes I was able to purchase 85 octane gas. Again no problems. I also regularly get over 50 mpg when I an riding where the air is thin. This year in CO an last in MT I was getting the highest MPG running the lowest octane gas.

You can run your premium if you want but you won't see me buying any. I want fresh fuel. You can buy the old stuff.

 

[Mark G]

Jestal, let me hijack this thread sideways and ask you your opinion on the acetone "craze" making the rounds of the Internet. I've a couple of friends who swear it's increased fuel economy significantly. I think it's baloney.

 

[sparky3008]

Jestal, let me hijack this thread sideways and ask you your opinion on the acetone "craze" making the rounds of the Internet. I've a couple of friends who swear it's increased fuel economy significantly. I think it's baloney.

If a car requiring 91 ran a lower octane and the ecu retarded the timing I could see a loss in fuel economy and then going back to 91 seeing what it should be and then perceived as an increase.

I wouldn't see a car that only required 87 just getting better going to 91 for no reason.

Jestal will set that straight though eventually.

 

[jestal]

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[Fred H.]

I think the concern over the hydroscopic nature of ethanol is a bit overblown. Ethanol will help remove water from the fuel system as it combines with water (or is miscible with water) and thus will enable water to travel thru the system and be "burned" (so to speak) before it accumulates in sufficient quantities to block the pickup or cause other problems.
If water was getting into a fuel system it was being pumped in from the gas station....not accumulating from condensation or anything like that.

Water absorption problems by ethanol are a common occurrence and are widely documented. The gas around here can't even be shipped in the same container with the ethanol, it has to be mixed at the station when poured in the tank. And before a gas station can switch to ethanol, they have to totally purge and clean/dry out the tanks.

This is because in the past, when water got into a tank with gas, the water simply sunk to the bottom, so it really didn't cause any harm. Now, with ethanol, the water gets absorbed into the gas.

I really don't care whether the water is coming from moisture absorption from the air, or water in the gas tanks at the pump, all I care about is that ethanol is causing water to get into my fuel system, and for this reason alone, it is not worth using.

And if you don't think the hygroscopic nature of ethanol is a problem, then ask British Petroleum why they are spending millions of dollars to develop a new fuel (called Bupanol) that is not hygroscopic as an ethanol alternative.

To heck with the arguments about less specific energy output from ethanol and decreased gas mileage. Folks are missing the real danger of ethanol, and that is water, and what it does to your fuel system and engine components when introduced into them. Not to mention how it makes the vehicle run.

 

[sparky3008]

I think the concern over the hydroscopic nature of ethanol is a bit overblown. Ethanol will help remove water from the fuel system as it combines with water (or is miscible with water) and thus will enable water to travel thru the system and be "burned" (so to speak) before it accumulates in sufficient quantities to block the pickup or cause other problems.

If water was getting into a fuel system it was being pumped in from the gas station....not accumulating from condensation or anything like that.

Water absorption problems by ethanol are a common occurrence and are widely documented. The gas around here can't even be shipped in the same container with the ethanol, it has to be mixed at the station when poured in the tank. And before a gas station can switch to ethanol, they have to totally purge and clean/dry out the tanks.

This is because in the past, when water got into a tank with gas, the water simply sunk to the bottom, so it really didn't cause any harm. Now, with ethanol, the water gets absorbed into the gas.

I really don't care whether the water is coming from moisture absorption from the air, or water in the gas tanks at the pump, all I care about is that ethanol is causing water to get into my fuel system, and for this reason alone, it is not worth using.

And if you don't think the hygroscopic nature of ethanol is a problem, then ask British Petroleum why they are spending millions of dollars to develop a new fuel (called Bupanol) that is not hygroscopic as an ethanol alternative.

To heck with the arguments about less specific energy output from ethanol and decreased gas mileage. Folks are missing the real danger of ethanol, and that is water, and what it does to your fuel system and engine components when introduced into them. Not to mention how it makes the vehicle run.

I hear what both of you are saying, the problem is the water at the gas station. You could go to another gas station that doesn't have water in their tanks with ethanol in the fuel and not have the problems you are seeing.

I have driven diesels in one fasion or another most of my life. I quickly learned what stationed to stay away from because they had water in their fuel.

My brother-n-law hauls Natural Gas. At the plant he fills up at when he first started he would spend hours draining the water from the Gas. This is why no one else wanted the route he had even though it was very close to home. Over time the plant got fixed and he benefitted by keeping the route while others had to go out of state to work.

My point is sometimes the fuel/gas is delivered with water in it, more often the tanks have the water.

We all know gas and water don't mix and where does the water stay on the top or on the bottom.

I would think that even without ethanol in the fuel the pump will send the water into your tank regardless.

Around here you can't get fuel without ethanol and we don't have any of the major problem that you are having with your car Fred so I don't think it is as major as you make it seem... Since you can get gas without it, great, but I bet if you just went to a different gas station that didn't have water in their tanks you wouldn't see the problem either...

 

[ionbeam]

Most New England stations are required to monitor their tanks for leaks. The cost to remediate a leaking tank is so punitive that most have installed double wall tanks.

I do use different gas stations. The small fuel filter and its location made my Furd susceptible to water.

At least here on the Atlantic coast during the winter dead batteries and water in the gas results in major AAA activities.

 

[sparky3008]

Most New England stations are required to monitor their tanks for leaks. The cost to remediate a leaking tank is so punitive that most have installed double wall tanks.
I do use different gas stations. The small fuel filter and its location made my Furd susceptible to water.

At least here on the Atlantic coast during the winter dead batteries and water in the gas results in major AAA activities.

I have personally watched them do the water test at gas stations, filled up my diesel Tow Truck, suffered the affects of water in the fuel filter, changed fuel filters, went to different station, no problem.

I know they monitor, I don't know how much is allowed vs. how much it takes to affect a diesel truck but I know it happens whether it is regulated or not, experience...

 

[jestal]

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[Bearly Flying]

My brother-n-law hauls Natural Gas. At the plant he fills up at when he first started he would spend hours draining the water from the Gas.

I am very curious on how he does this.

Natural Gas is primarily methane C1H4. Normally transported in a gaseous state through pipelines. When it is liquified for transportation, LNG Tankers etc. it is refrigerated under high pressure to maintain the liquid state. The boiling point of methane is around -270 deg at atmospheric pressure IIRC.

 

[sparky3008]

My brother-n-law hauls Natural Gas. At the plant he fills up at when he first started he would spend hours draining the water from the Gas.

I am very curious on how he does this.

Natural Gas is primarily methane C1H4. Normally transported in a gaseous state through pipelines. When it is liquified for transportation, LNG Tankers etc. it is refrigerated under high pressure to maintain the liquid state. The boiling point of methane is around -270 deg at atmospheric pressure IIRC.

I don't pretend to know crap in this area so bare with me.

I remember him telling me that he ships it in one form and where he takes it they turn it into 3 or 4 other gases.

I also recall vividly his story of why he got the route he did and it involved separating the water before putting it in his truck.

What, Why, Where, Who and How I have no idea. Someone else might shed some light.

I don't doubt my brother-n-laws story as it is his own business and is expanding his trucks so I am sure he knows what he's doing...

 

[radman]

I don't doubt my brother-n-laws story as it is his own business and is expanding his trucks so I am sure he knows what he's doing...

Why, theres one expanding now........

 

[sparky3008]

My brother-n-law hauls Natural Gas. At the plant he fills up at when he first started he would spend hours draining the water from the Gas.

I am very curious on how he does this.

Natural Gas is primarily methane C1H4. Normally transported in a gaseous state through pipelines. When it is liquified for transportation, LNG Tankers etc. it is refrigerated under high pressure to maintain the liquid state. The boiling point of methane is around -270 deg at atmospheric pressure IIRC.

I don't pretend to know crap in this area so bare with me.

I remember him telling me that he ships it in one form and where he takes it they turn it into 3 or 4 other gases.

I also recall vividly his story of why he got the route he did and it involved separating the water before putting it in his truck.

What, Why, Where, Who and How I have no idea. Someone else might shed some light.

I don't doubt my brother-n-laws story as it is his own business and is expanding his trucks so I am sure he knows what he's doing...

It was something that was wrong with where he was filling up his truck. It normally would not be something he should have to do but it was his responsibility to check it. If he got to the other plant and they found the water in it they wouldn't accept it.

Now what could be wrong I have no idea. Someone who knows what the process is might have an idea what could cause it...

 

[panthercity]

I think the concern over the hydroscopic nature of ethanol is a bit overblown.

Did you mean "hygroscopic"?

 

[sparky3008]

I think the concern over the hydroscopic nature of ethanol is a bit overblown.

Did you mean "hygroscopic"?

hydroscope:

An optical device used for viewing objects far below the surface of water.

I would have to say he meant hygro

Readily absorbing moisture, as from the atmosphere

But then we are a bunch of picky SOB's...