Gravity SUCKS, Pumps PUSH..........

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OHfjr: Interesting concept for fuel transfer. What you said does not seem like a vaccumn type fuel style of tranfer. To me it represents a pressure and volumne difference. If there was a vaccumn it would trandfer no matter what the temperature is. Have you aefer put a vaccumn gauge on your tank to find out id a vaccumn exsist?

Me I would you an inline pump on the fuel line to transfer to the main along with a one way check valve to help elimanate that unwanted air. Some thing you may want to consider in your fuel line is use a p-trap style of bend in your fuel line to help stop that air from entering.

Interesting topic kind if like trying to build a better mouse trap....

If there was a vaccumn being created how many inches of Hg do you think there is??

 
Interesting Thread ....things that make you go hmmmmmmm.............

For me, with very limited experience the gravity feed is my choice. This is because of the simplicity of it. However, there are issues that perhaps aren't immediately obvious with gravity fed systems:

-Aux tank must be higher than primary tank (duh) ..this means you'll be taking either pillion space or rear luggage space. So for two-up riders and/or those who carry the kitchen sink with them this can be an issue. for me it isn't

-IMO gravity fed requires a higher degree of attention when turning the valve on/off. There are many variables ...some answers may seem easy but one can fool themselves. For example

- Turn the valve on too early and you risk pushing gas into the primary tank which *could* cause overfill down the vent tube. But, to the contrary, on my system, if on an incline I loose a fair amount of gas out the aux vent tupe from splashing and gravity. I'm working on ways to help avoid this.

- Turn the valve on too late and you risk out-running the speed of the transfer. While this may not seem likely, you'll be surprised what inclines in the road can do!!! Your testing in the garage or on flat ground will not be the same as real world application.

This is easy enough to overcome (just don't leave the valve open exteneded periods while going up hill). I learned this the hard way and managed to embarrass myself while riding ahead of Jim owens in the Utah 1088. Up hill, out of Zion park and I started surging ...yep gas had started flowing back, to the -point that I was running out of gas in the primary tank!!. LOL, believe me, I learned that lesson in the most embarrassing of times.

For this simple hick from Nevada, gravity is great but you must factor certain things in. Do *I* think some of the fancy tail-dragger cells with electric pumps are better?? Yep, no doubt, especially if you need the pilliion or luggage space. Would I give my left nut for a fancy set-up like Kaitsdad??? No, but I might give the right one :)

Irregardless, once you experience the advantage of aux fuel you will not go back. there is math that can't easily be explained but in simple terms: While you do not get 100%more range, you stop for gas LESS than 50% as much. why? Good question, but the answer falls into those times when you need three or four gallons to get to the next convenient gas ....the aux cel does away with the vast majority of those situations. While my range is not doubled, I stop for gas about 40% as often ....that is HUGE!!

OHfjr: Interesting concept for fuel transfer. What you said does not seem like a vaccumn type fuel style of tranfer. To me it represents a pressure and volumne difference. If there was a vaccumn it would trandfer no matter what the temperature is. Have you aefer put a vaccumn gauge on your tank to find out id a vaccumn exsist???
Pressure is huge factor, but IMO temperature etc does not come into play as much as the "back pressure" of fuel in the primary tank. IE: with lots of gas in the primary, the transfer will be slow, no big deal, as the primary runs low, there is less "back pressure" and the flow will be faster ....now you must also factor in the pressure of the gas in aux cel ..more in it means more pressure, hence why it is likely possible with many systems to overfill the primary if it too is full. In some ways the fighting pressures are a self enforcing good thing, but just another variable with gravity.
 
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OHfjr: Interesting concept for fuel transfer. What you said does not seem like a vaccumn type fuel style of tranfer. To me it represents a pressure and volumne difference. If there was a vaccumn it would trandfer no matter what the temperature is. Have you aefer put a vaccumn gauge on your tank to find out id a vaccumn exsist?

Me I would you an inline pump on the fuel line to transfer to the main along with a one way check valve to help elimanate that unwanted air. Some thing you may want to consider in your fuel line is use a p-trap style of bend in your fuel line to help stop that air from entering.

Interesting topic kind if like trying to build a better mouse trap....

If there was a vaccumn being created how many inches of Hg do you think there is??

I have never put a gauge on it, so I don't know. I'm not an engineer so you may be right, it may be a volume and pressure difference. I do have an in line pump on my system,as my aux tank is lower than my main tank. I am using the line from my main tank to my aux tank as a vent, so I do not wat to put a check valve in it. If I did that, and pressure built up in my main tank, it would have no way to get vented.

 
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quote RJ "Irregardless, once you experience the advantage of aux fuel you will not go back. there is math that can't easily be explained but in simple terms: While you do not get 100%more range, you stop for gas LESS than 50% as much. why? Good question, but the answer falls into those times when you need three or four gallons to get to the next convenient gas ....the aux cel does away with the vast majority of those situations. While my range is not doubled, I stop for gas about 40% as often ....that is HUGE!!"

Exactly. And I don't have one yet. Good thing. I'm the CBA prez and all.. we don't go more than 1 tank in a day.. :rolleyes: :unsure: :rolleyes:

 
K.I.S.S. Gravity feed while needing more attention to well, gravity, only takes remembering to turn the valve on and off depending on situation. I have the first run Tanji cell and the only problem I had is when I installed the Wilbers rear shock. It lowered the rear because of the spring was under sprung. It did not transfer all the fuel. After getting the correct spring and getting the right ride height the cell has worked perfectly. Only once did I forget to turn it off when parked and full did I dump a little fuel. other than that no failure of electrics or components. Got the cell after the FJR gathering in Moscow. I ride solo so it works for me. I took it off so I could two up with my daughter in Park City and really missed the fuel capacity.

But I am a simpleton when it comes to stuff like this so the simpler the better.

 
It seems to me you are discussing how to get fuel from one tank to the other. Has anyone built of thought of using a stock Yamaha pump to feed the injectors directly from an auxillary tank?

Just asking.

 
It seems to me you are discussing how to get fuel from one tank to the other. Has anyone built of thought of using a stock Yamaha pump to feed the injectors directly from an auxillary tank?Just asking.
The pump is high pressure pump (47PSI i believe?). Are you suggesting another pump on the fuel cel?, and if so how would you regulate/combine the two? Doesn't sound like it would work to me, ..not to mention the complexity of dealing with the high pressures ....and have you checked the pricing and bulk of these high pressure fuel pumps? (ouch!) Perhpas if both primary and aux tank each drained (gravity) into some sort of bladder this bladder could be pumped via high pressure to the injectors??

 
As I read this thread, and remember some of the aux tanks I have seen. two things come to mind.

1) Fuel is pretty heavy and the FJR already has a high center of gravity. So there is an advantage to keeping the aux tank down low.

2) Mounting a fuel tank off the back of the bike, taildragger style, puts the tank where it is most likely to rupture if you are rear ended. I can't think of any place on the FJR where the tank would be completely safe in case of a get-off, but the tail dragger just seems to me more exposed.

 
With all respect to OhioFJR, vacuum is the method I'd least prefer. I truly do respect that you have a system that is working. However, the least teeny tiny pin-hole anywhere in the system and the fuel supply will prefer to suck air than a liquid. When vacuum systems work, they are great, but troubleshooting them is a learning experience - BTDT. BTW, on hot days, I'd suspect that you're heating your main tank and slightly increasing its pressure, so the reduction in delta-p is why you have trouble drawing from the lower aux tank.

Gravity works and the caveats have been covered by guys with experience. The difficulty with getting to your valve is a separate issue and just sounds like the decision of where it was put. Re-locate it to where it's easier to get at and you ought to be past the one real trouble that you mentioned that you've actually had.

If you do go with a pump, just remember to have it beneath the level of the fuel in the aux tank (push fuel), or you're back to a vacuum system.

Bob

 
However, the least teeny tiny pin-hole anywhere in the system and the fuel supply will prefer to suck air than a liquid. Bob

Bob,

I agree. But a teeny-tiny pin-hole anywhere in any type of fuel system is going to become a problem. I'm not at all trying to convert anyone to using the system that I have on my Goldwing, just sharing ideas and letting others know what works for me. I know of several people that use the same system as I have and have put over 100,000 combined miles ontheir bikes without a failure to their aux fuel system. But I again agree with you, a gravity system is the least likely to have a problem. After all, gravity is not just a good idea........ its the law :yahoo:

 
Well, it would seem that this has now been hashed around a bit, with no new posts since Sept 5th -

Summation:

Gravity works (and very well) - but has it's own set of limitations.

Pumps work - which increases the mounting options (and $,) but also adds complexity. Complexity = additional failure points.

Vacuum works - if the fuel system of the bike it's installed on is designed a certain way. We don't believe that the FJR is designed to accommodate this.

Nothing earth shattering here - it would seem to be a choice based upon physics first, followed by personal preference.

Each rider has a set of personal constraints to consider as well.

So - conclusion? I don't suppose there is one - it comes down to a choice that each rider has to make at a personal level.

All I can state is this: If you're considering installing an aux tank, do your homework. My personal experience as limited as it is, has shown me that this is not something you want to cut corners on. Should you have a component failure, at best you lose use of the extra fuel. At worse ? well, use your imagination. Go slowly - think through each step of what you are doing. Once you have thought it out, think about it some more.

Installation includes some steps that are not recoverable. So THINK ! Be prepared to execute and have it fail. Learn from the failure.

This forum body has an unbelievable resource of experience within it's membership. Ask questions, post pictures, etc. Yes, you risk getting dogpiled, but you will also most likely get the answer you need.

 
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