Harley Busted by EPA for Screaming Eagle Tuners

[Fred W]

And yet the 3rd Gen FJR has a wide and flat torque curve that is as smooth as a baby's butt right from the factory. The problem with most motorcycles' state of tune is not the EPA mandates. It is the incomplete solution implemented by the manufacturers to achieve that mandate.

The new FJRs prove that solutions are possible. It's lack of engineering excellence compounded by the consumers ready willingness to apply band-AIDS after the sale that results in so many bikes "needing" aftermarket solutions.

 

[Fly Bye]

Sorry, but really how much are these units actually affecting the air quality??? I mean this is the same EPA that poisoned a river in CO and nothing was done about it. WTH!!??

Yes it is. The EPA and all the other agencies involved point fingers at each other to create confusion and chaos among themselves so the end result is no agency takes responsibility.

It is time the seemingly unstoppable power of the EPA is curtailed. It is also time the American citizens take their heads out of a very dark place and stop governmental agencies from mandating anything they please.

 

[08FJR4ME]

Without that aftermarket tuner that fixed my bike from stalling in the middle of intersections I may be dead now. Screw them it worked for me.

Dave

 

[Bugman]

I have a Sportster in addition to my FJR. Harley sells detuned bikes on purpose. Most of their riders are beginners who buy a lifestyle. Harley has their own learn to ride program. Everyone in the Harley world talks about paying the "Harley tax". Bikes listed for sale are described as "taxes paid". This means that the tuning parts have been purchased and applied. Harley is slowly getting away from this by offering more models with more updated engineering but they still need to appeal to the "purests". Their business model is to sell chrome, leather, glassware, signs for the garage, stickers, and tuning parts. This is changing and their 750 is a sign of things to come. Air cooled v twins are limited in their efficiency. Other manufacturers have gone to liquid cooling for a number of good reasons. At least Harley's have fuel injection now!

The big problem is that Harley owners tune the bikes themselves and get them too rich at idle. You can smell the gas if you are ever behind one. They try to get back the low end torque they lose when they put the straight pipes on to increase that "Harley sound". They then have to blip the throttle to keep the engine from bogging down at idle and slow speeds.

 

[Knifemaker]

Well thank God I can still buy different sized jets for my carb'd bike....

 

[PapaUtah]

It appears the only solution is another law...

 

[NightShine]

... Harley sells ... Their business model is to sell chrome, leather, glassware, signs for the garage, stickers, and tuning parts.

And let's not forget doggie chew toys...

But of low quality. They just don't last...

 

[Bounce]

And yet the 3rd Gen FJR has a wide and flat torque curve that is as smooth as a baby's butt right from the factory. The problem with most motorcycles' state of tune is not the EPA mandates. It is the incomplete solution implemented by the manufacturers to achieve that mandate.
The new FJRs prove that solutions are possible. It's lack of engineering excellence compounded by the consumers ready willingness to apply band-AIDS after the sale that results in so many bikes "needing" aftermarket solutions.

Got a dyno result of a stock model for us to peek at?

 

[bigjohnsd]

And yet the 3rd Gen FJR has a wide and flat torque curve that is as smooth as a baby's butt right from the factory. The problem with most motorcycles' state of tune is not the EPA mandates. It is the incomplete solution implemented by the manufacturers to achieve that mandate.
The new FJRs prove that solutions are possible. It's lack of engineering excellence compounded by the consumers ready willingness to apply band-AIDS after the sale that results in so many bikes "needing" aftermarket solutions.

Got a dyno result of a stock model for us to peek at?

I didn't know there was a desire to see one, I was parked right next to the DynoJet Factory Dyno Truck at Sturgis for the past two weeks. The guys would certainly have put my stock Gen 3 on their dyno sometime during the week.

 

[Fred W]

I don't need a dyno to tell me what I can feel when I ride the bike. The power delivery is smooth and progressive with no lean stumble or abruptness. I am certain that a dyno run would show the same thing, but it isn't really necessary to know they got it right this time.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Don't really care, but anything where the DOJ is involved is bound to be FUBAR. I wonder how many flights their investigators made around the country while looking for the smoking gun of this huge Harley conspiracy to poison our air. Give me a break...

 

[Bounce]

I'm just saying that we all know how inaccurate a "butt dyno" can be when we see people bolt on mods that can't possibly create the claimed results.

 

[SwollenRaccoon]

Without that aftermarket tuner that fixed my bike from stalling in the middle of intersections I may be dead now. Screw them it worked for me.
Dave

Why on earth would anyone buy a stock motorcycle that would stall in the middle of an intersection? Would you buy a car or truck that did that? No thanks. My Honda and Yamaha have run perfectly for years, just as they were delivered from the factory. (And require no throttle blipping to keep them running).

 

[Fred W]

"We the People" has become a joke with some federal agencies. Fred, you have much more faith than I do in the ability of the majority.

Well, it's not so much a matter of faith as it is optimism.

If we could ever get a majority of people to even turn out and vote things might be less manipulated by those vocal minorities with "an agenda." Less than 50% of the total population choose to participate (vote) even in the hotly debated Presidential election years.

The problem with our representative republic is public apathy. People feel unable to affect the changes they want, or to stop the ones they don't, so they don't even bother trying. It's easier to just throw up your hands and blame "the government."

I feel that way too sometimes, but I don't like it. "The government" is actually us, and we are doing a half-assed job of it.

 

[BkerChuck]

Having spent a few years at a HD dealership I probably know more about these tuners than many on our forum. I probably sold a hundred or more myself while working there. The first generation of the tuner came with the software and the cable to connect to a laptop so owners could install the software on their home computer and write their own maps which led to a whole plethora of problems as most owners had no real idea what they were doing. Later superseded versions came as just the "dongle" with no software and no cable. This forced buyers to pay a dealership to install and tune it. This may be where part of the problem really came about. You now had dealerships knowingly and willingly modifying street bikes to violate emission laws for performance.

I don't know that our shop ever checked the actual emissions post tuning to see if they were still within EPA guidelines or not. I do know that generally when we did sell these it was only if the customer was doing mods beyond simple slip on mufflers. If all you wanted was a little more sound most slip ons could give you that without need for air cleaner kits. The only time the tuner was really justified was when more extensive mods were being made. These tuners went a little beyond the Power Commander of Fuel Pak variety in that with the software you could adjust front and rear cylinder fuel and timing independently. It also allowed for the installation of higher lift cams, better cylinder heads, bigger injectors, and more. This was a very well sorted out package aimed at performance enthusiasts and racers and not the average street rider.

We can poke all the fun we want about HD and performance but we did have a few customers who really did spend time at the drag strip and spent the money to make their bike perform. I feel bad for those few who have the desire to race a Harley as this was one really nice piece of performance add on.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

Interesting info.

 

[Fred W]

I had a friend that went through ET "A" school at Great Lakes (USN) with me, back in 1978, who was an amateur Harley Davidson drag racer. He owned a custom drag bike and had made extensive engine mods to it. I went to the strip with him when he was running it one weekend. Forget what class he raced, but it ran gasoline. I can't even remember his name, but I do remember that the way he looked at it was that anyone with enough money can go out and buy a quick bike and take it to the drag strip and run fast quarter miles on it. The fun for him was taking a dog-ass-slow bike (aka Harley) and making it run fast(er). He was a pretty smart guy, very mechanically talented, and his bike ran pretty damn well.

He wasn't buying off the shelf "performance parts" from The Motor Company.

 

[sath182]

The Government is coming. Slowly eroding our right to ride.

Move to Michigan. I hear the State decided to let you choose whether or not to wear a helmet. Pretty progressive, huh?

I think people, like the author, are reading too much into this. No, the EPA doesn't like tuners but this isn't about the tuners themselves. If it were, they would have gone after the largest manufacturer of tuners. This is about HD deliberately violating its agreement to meet EPA standards to sell motorcycles in the US.
By manufacturing, distributing and selling a product that knowingly violates EPA standards, they are, by default, not selling motorcycles that meet those standards. Manufacturers of aftermarket devises are free to do so because didn't make or sell the vehicle and aren't bound to those agreements. It seems like a gray area but the original manufacturer of a product can't make another product that changes the original product in such a way as it violates its contracts. Put differently, you can make and sell a semi automatic rifle, but you can't also make and sell a kit that converts it into a full automatic. That would be the same as selling fully automatic rifles.

I'm by no means a regulatory fan since bureaucratic dictates violate the democratic process, but I completely agree with the EPA on this one. HD made an agreement and they need to abide by it. If they want to get into the tuner market, they need to get out of the motorcycle business. They can't have both.

You raise an interesting point. The position the manufacturer holds in that arrangement isn't something I had thought of. It makes total sense, but I still feel that HD was made and example of because of their enourmous market presence and their name. The position you mention, I'll wager, just made it that much easier for them to succeed with this portion of their agenda.

Careful guys...you know who is watching.

Santa Clause?! Can you tell him to bring me a Seat Concepts kit and an SR-357 for Christmas? I've been extra good this year. I promise!

I have a Sportster in addition to my FJR. Harley sells detuned bikes on purpose. Most of their riders are beginners who buy a lifestyle. Harley has their own learn to ride program. Everyone in the Harley world talks about paying the "Harley tax". Bikes listed for sale are described as "taxes paid". This means that the tuning parts have been purchased and applied....

Well, they can only get so much performance out of an air cooled, under-square, push-rod, two-valve engine before they have problems with emissions. Will they now have to stop selling speed parts as well because they can also be used to "circumvent emissions regulations?"

And yet the 3rd Gen FJR has a wide and flat torque curve that is as smooth as a baby's butt right from the factory. The problem with most motorcycles' state of tune is not the EPA mandates. It is the incomplete solution implemented by the manufacturers to achieve that mandate.

The new FJRs prove that solutions are possible. It's lack of engineering excellence compounded by the consumers ready willingness to apply band-AIDS after the sale that results in so many bikes "needing" aftermarket solutions.

Got a dyno result of a stock model for us to peek at?

How's this?

 

[Bill Lumberg]

And that was as measured with a butt dyno.

 

[sath182]

With enough seat time I guess you could get that well calibrated.