HID H4 headlight HI/LO operation

[jestal]

Per the e-mails I received....let me clearify. I started this purely as a tinkering thread to share info with others tinkering with the H4 HID capsule to see if there was a way to make it work even better. I like the lights and plan on using them but figured that over the winter it might be worth tinkering with to make them work better. Two heads are better than one so I figured information I had noticed might be useful to others that were critically examining the H4 capsule in case I missed something or to spur other thoughts.

I am NOT whining about the lights, their imperfections or the deal we got on them. Geez. Relax. If you don't want to read this stuff then just skip the thread. I thought it would be better to post it on this forum since people here were talking about this before rather than post it on the Better Homes and Garden forum. Plus, this really does NOT apply to the HID self buy as it specifically refers to tinkering with the design of the capsule.

Sorry for the rant but some folks need to read this.

Back to the subject at hand.

FJRocket.....look at the parts again. The HID bulb is held into the H4 assembly by the circular "washer" that installs from the backside of the assembly. Flatten it in a vise or with a hammer and it will hold again. RTV will hold mine permanently once I am done. But, that is not the "circlip" I am talking about.

Take the HID bulb itself and look at it. Imbedded in the base of the bulb assembly is a very narrow metal band with two wider sections. THAT is the circlip that locates the depth of the bulb in the assembly and holds the bulb assembly together. If you gently pry out the wider sections of the metal band it will disconnect the circlip and you can remove it. NOW you can hold the HID bulb in its most elemental condition and move it back and forth a LOT more than 2mm in the base. Set it where you want and put the clip back in.

Sorry I have no pics to post. One of these days I'll get out of the stoneage and get a digital camera.....LOL.

 

[FJRocket]

And with all due respect, WC, I guess the other thing about the failure concern is that this Hi/Lo mechanism could fail in high beam only, too. Couldn't it?

I asked about this, and was told that should the selonoid fail, the butterfly wings "fail-safe" in the low beam position due to small mechanical springs that normally keep the wings closed when power is not applied to the selonoid.

I never got a chance to examine the mechanism that closely to determine if that is a true fact, but it appears to be the case, since whenever you shut the bike down while high-beam is engaged, the butterfly wings snap shut.

Yes, the bixenon shutters default to closed, which is to say, low beam. They are indeed sprung closed and powered open for high beam.

 

[FJRocket]

FJRocket.....look at the parts again.  The HID bulb is held into the H4 assembly by the circular "washer" that installs from the backside of the assembly.  Flatten it in a vise or with a hammer and it will hold again.  RTV will hold mine permanently once I am done.  But, that is not the "circlip" I am talking about.
Take the HID bulb itself and look at it.  Imbedded in the base of the bulb assembly is a very narrow metal band with two wider sections.  THAT is the circlip that locates the depth of the bulb in the assembly and holds the bulb assembly together.  If you gently pry out the wider sections of the metal band it will disconnect the circlip and you can remove it.  NOW you can hold the HID bulb in its most elemental condition and move it back and forth a LOT more than 2mm in the base.  Set it where you want and put the clip back in.

Sorry I have no pics to post.  One of these days I'll get out of the stoneage and get a digital camera.....LOL.

Ok, NOW I got it!! Yes, I was just thinking about the retainer ring at the back.

NOW I'll have to look at your idea. THAT has potential! Thanks for straightening me out! COOL!

Yes, this is why I want to share what's going on in this "tinkering" thread.

I'm thinking about taking the front of the bike apart and removing the lens from both sides. I think I could take a dremel and cut the lens in half along the horizontal midlines. Then I could move the lower half of the lens FORWARD 6mm. How about THAT for tinkering?!?!

Ok, I was just kidding... :bleh:

 

[Caba]

Great thread guys!

FJRocket,

If I can get them monday, I will retrieve the headlight assembly replaced after the deer strike wich will allow an experiment just like you described (moving the reflector instead of the bulb.).

At first thought, it has just as much merit as the bulb modification, (just more expensive to put back)

Any Interest?

 

[Penforhire]

These are great ideas and I hope something works out. That back-and-forth motion capsule looks like the smartest way to do it.

Vendor 'Dennis' over at St-N is talking about capsules that have a regular filament for the high beam. That would probably work but then we'd be back to more power consumption and a different controller than our kit's.

 

[HondaCBX6]

RTV will hold mine permanently once I am done. But, that is not the "circlip" I am talking about.

I hope you have HIGH TEPERATURE RTV! (the orange stuff) The bulbs can get seriously hot. Hotter than regular RTV can handle.

 

[jestal]

OK.....

I spent the last few hours tinkering away and running some lighting tests.

Now that all the bright spots have disappeared from my vision...LOL....here are the results.

Success. Qualified success to some extent but much success none the less.

I modified one of the HID H4 capsules as described above. Three things were done:

I cut a rectangular window in the moving shutter activation channel that coincides with the HID element when the channel is in the HI beam position so that light can get past the shutter activation channel and it is no longer shadowing the Hi beam light source.

To block this window in the low beam position I added a small aluminum shield that slips under the end cap mount. This acts like a shade or gulletine in the LO beam position so that the opening that I cut is covered by the aluminum tab added when the channel snaps to the LO beam position.

I also reversed the HID bulb in the holder by re-notching the HID bulb socket. This puts the anode wire 180 degrees away so that it is no longer shadowing the HI beam light. It shadows the LO beam light now but is in line with the existing brace so the effect is unnoticed. Other than notching the base of the bulb holder the bulb will install 180 with no other mods and nothing that I could see that would be detrimental.

I tested the modified HID capsule in three different H4 motorcycle headlight shells that I had lying around. That is the qualifier in the results. I have not tested this in the FJR lens but given the results I predict a high likelyhood of success. I compared the modified HID capsule to the standard HID capsule to an H4 bulb. I used a 12 volt motorcycle batter to power the lights with a charger on the battery. I was shining the lights out my basement garage door onto spruce trees about 100 feet away so I could get a nice read on the pattern and coverage as the row of trees is like a green wall.

As previously noted with the FJR installations the HID Lo beam operation far surpasses the H4 Lo beam. I saw the same exact thing with the 3 lenses I used. Same clear cutoff and same iimprovement in illumination. The modified HID capsule lost NOTHING in terms of LO beam performance. Reversing the anode wire and shadowing the Lo beam portin of the light has no discernable effect on the LO beam comparing the mod'ed to the standard HID LO beam and both are far superior to the H4 bulb.

The standard HID HI beam showed similar results to what has been posted. Plenty bright but not much light in the center and no as good as the H4 halogen Hi beam operation. My test lenses duplicated the phenomenon of concern exactly. The modified HID capsule was a dramatic improvement in the HI beam operation. In the 3 lenses I tested it in it is as good as the H4 in terms of coverage and better in terms of brightness. In addtiion, it is as good in the HI beam coverage as the H4 AND it keeps the LO beam coverage intact.

The mods as described work. Period.

I have not changed the focal point of the HID bulb but it seems to have less of an effect now that it is unshielded or unshadowed by cutting the window in the shutter activation channel. Besides, I want to do that work in the actual FJR lens. Since the 3 H4 lenses I had to test with acted the same as has been reported I would expect not much difference with the FJR but will have to wait and see.

I did slide the standard HID capsule in and out of the headlight housings to vary the depth and could improve the HI beam operation and coverge BUT it was never anywhere near as good as the HI beam coverage with the window cut in the mod'ed HID capsule and moving the modified HID capsule with the window had minimal effect on the coverage or brightness.

Once the HID light could get past the anode wire (that I eliminated by rotating the bulb 180) and past the shutter activation channel (that I eliminated with the window cut in it) the lense seemed to pick up the HI beam light fine and throw a decent pattern.

I realize that I need to get the mod'ed capsule in the FJR and ride with it but based on what I have seen so far in the backyard I am pretty excited about what the lights are going to work like.

FINE PRINT: Your results may vary. Do not try this at home. Trained professionals on a closed course. Not responsible for your screwed up lights....LOL.

 

[jestal]

RTV will hold mine permanently once I am done. But, that is not the "circlip" I am talking about.

I hope you have HIGH TEPERATURE RTV! (the orange stuff) The bulbs can get seriously hot. Hotter than regular RTV can handle.

I am talking about the base of the bulb outside the headlight housing. The circular metal retainer that holds the bulb holder into the capsule will get hot but not any hotter than the base of the capsule outside the headlight housing where the wires exit. Orange or copper RTV will be overkill for that area. It is not anywhere near the bulb.

 

[Rogue]

OK.....
I spent the last few hours tinkering away and running some lighting tests.

Now that all the bright spots have disappeared from my vision...LOL....here are the results.

Success. Qualified success to some extent but much success none the less.

I modified one of the HID H4 capsules as described above. Three things were done:

I cut a rectangular window in the moving shutter activation channel that coincides with the HID element when the channel is in the HI beam position so that light can get past the shutter activation channel and it is no longer shadowing the Hi beam light source.

To block this window in the low beam position I added a small aluminum shield that slips under the end cap mount. This acts like a shade or gulletine in the LO beam position so that the opening that I cut is covered by the aluminum tab added.

I also reversed the HID bulb in the holder by re-notching the HID bulb socket. This puts the anode wire 180 degrees away so that it is no longer shadowing the HI beam light. It shadows the LO beam light now but is in line with the existing brace so the effect is unnoticed. Other than notching the base of the bulb holder the bulb will install 180 with no other mods and nothing that I could see that would be detrimental.

I tested the modified HID capsule in three different H4 motorcycle headlight shells that I had lying around. That is the qualifier in the results. I have not tested this in the FJR lens but given the results I predict a high likelyhood of success. I compared the modified HID capsule to the standard HID capsule to an H4 bulb. I used a 12 volt motorcycle batter to power the lights with a charger on the battery. I was shining the lights out my basement garage door onto spruce trees about 100 feet away so I could get a nice read on the pattern and coverage as the row of trees is like a green wall.

As previously noted with the FJR installations the HID Lo beam operation far surpasses the H4 Lo beam. I saw the same exact thing with the 3 lenses I used. Same clear cutoff and same iimprovement in illumination. The modified HID capsule lost NOTHING in terms of LO beam performance. Reversing the anode wire and shadowing the Lo beam portin of the light has no discernable effect on the LO beam comparing the mod'ed to the standard HID LO beam and both are far superior to the H4 bulb.

The standard HID HI beam showed similar results to what has been posted. Plenty bright but not much light in the center and no as good as the H4 halogen Hi beam operation. My test lenses duplicated the phenomenon of concern exactly. The modified HID capsule was a dramatic improvement in the HI beam operation. In the 3 lenses I tested it in it is as good as the H4 in terms of coverage and better in terms of brightness. In addtiion, it is as good in the HI beam coverage as the H4 AND it keeps the LO beam coverage intact.

The mods as described work. Period.

I have not changed the focal point of the HID bulb but it seems to have less of an effect now that it is unshielded or unshadowed by cutting the window in the shutter activation channel. Besides, I want to do that work in the actual FJR lens. Since the 3 H4 lenses I had to test with acted the same as has been reported I would expect not much difference with the FJR but will have to wait and see.

I did slide the standard HID capsule in and out of the headlight housings to vary the depth and could improve the HI beam operation and coverge BUT it was never anywhere near as good as the HI beam coverage with the window cut in the mod'ed HID capsule and moving the modified HID capsule with the window had minimal effect on the coverage or brightness.

Once the HID light could get past the anode wire (that I eliminated by rotating the bulb 180) and past the shutter activation channel (that I eliminated with the window cut in it) the lense seemed to pick up the HI beam light fine and throw a decent pattern.

I realize that I need to get the mod'ed capsule in the FJR and ride with it but based on what I have seen so far in the backyard I am pretty excited about what the lights are going to work like.

So..... What would you charge to do that mod on my lamps?

 

[jestal]

Really the modifications are relatively easy. If I can get pictures made or someone does the mods who can make pictures it will be very easy to do. A little tedious but pretty simple if you take your time and have a dremel and a small burr. The window in the shutter channel is easy to cut as the material turns out to be copper or brass. I just drilled a hole thru in the position and squared it off with the dremel. The little tab added as cut with scissors from a pop can. Small square file renotched the bulb base to reverse it 180. Really turned out to be pretty simple.

I would recommend doing it yourself. I honestly don't want to get into the business of modifying the capsules and don't want to accept the liability of doing them for other people.

Least everyone jump on the bandwagon remember that I have NOT tested the capsules in the FJR housing yet so there may be a surprise and I am holding off on doing the second HID capsule so as to compare the two again in the FJR.

One nice thing, however, is that this mod is completely recoverable. The window can be permanently shaded by a slightly longer tab if you decide it is not something desireable. The bulb can obviously be put back in its original location instead of 180 out. So you can undo this really easily. I looked at the window with my welding helmet and no light gets past the tab and it is amazingly bright with the window open in the HI beam position so the tab would shield it completely if it were made longer to undo the mod.

 

[BrunDog]

Great work, Jestal.

It is good to see this thing reaching critical mass. I have not dove in like you guys, but I made a couple of calls today to HID vendors and will complete those tomorrow. So far, some interesting feedback, including admissions that xenon lamps can "never" position their light sources as small and in the exact same position at the H4 bulb.

-BD

 

[Bounce]

Bounce: I read the e-mail, thanks for reiterating. But I would love to see the reports you are talking about WRT the reliability of the new butterfly capsules.
-BD

reports of reliability i'm referencing are the moving capsule reports; not of the butterfly type. my concern was only partially about reliability. i was more concerned about a single "element" capsule and how it worked in a reflector designed for dual elements (H4). to make it clear what my concern was: that any single element would be a compromise compared to the single element design of the (H3) PIAA 910's that I already had for aux lights.

My personal reason for skipping the H4 kit and using the H3 instead:

past reports: light scatter/control from leakage, reliability of moving capsules, etc.

unknown: butterfly design and how much closer it got to H4 accuracy for high/low as well as reliability (not that it was better or worse - that it was an unknown)

Hope that makes it a little more clear. As I explained to a couple of folks off-thread, I didn't want to hijack this thread but simply was posting in response to the comment about trying to talk the source into taking back the butterfly kits and swapping them for moving capsule kits. Clearly something that was counter to all the discussion in the "if you agree with all this" e-mail. It seems that this was turned into that very thread hijack.

To those who continued through the flack and pressed on with the "tinkering" content: Thanks. I've gone back and blanked my other posts and encourage others with non-tinkering content to do the same thing.

 

[jestal]

I thought that the focal point of the light origination would cause more problems than I have seen with the lenses I was using. It seems to make a lot of sense looking at the H4 bulb but the results I have seen so far clearly indicate that the major problem by far and away was the fact that the HID element was being excessively shadowed or shielded in the HI beam mode. The mods to unshield it as described dramatically improve it's operation and subsequent moving of the focal point seeme to have little impact once the shadowing was eliminated. Just cutting the window in the shutter activation channel made a huge difference just looking at the light operation and actual operation in the lense.

You can easily look at the "backside" of the H4 HID capsule when it is in the HI beam mode if you look directly at the bulb with the shutter activation channel in the way. Even with your naked eye you can still look at the bulb. With the window cut in the channel there is NO WAY you can look at the bulb in the HI beam mode. That little window lets a huge amount of light thru. Maybe not perfect but plenty good enough to at least be as good as the H4 halogen high beam and even better from what I have seen so far.

To reiterate, with the mod the real gain is that the HI beam pattern and brightness is so much better and with the LO beam still unshielded and in operation the total amount of light is amazing. With the H4 the Lo beam element goes away and only the hi beam element is burning on hi beams so you loose a lot of the lo beam pattern with the conventional halogen bulb. The HID doesn't loose any low beam pattern and just adds all the high beam pattern with the mod.

The idea of the focal length of the HID not moving is not good in a way but it is advantageous in a way. It allows the Lo pattern to stay the same and the high beam is then additive. The H4 halogen also has poor focal point location in high beam as it moves when the elements change to the hi beam location and looses the low pattern. So that isn't perfect either.

I am just surprised at the dramatic improvement I have seen with a fairly simple mod to the HID capsule and surprised that the designer of the HID capsule overlooked and obvious solution/improvement.

 

[FJRocket]

Jestal, please clear up a couple things. Talk to me like I'm a two year old..

When you drilled and cut the activation channel, did you cut the bottom, the sides, or both? IOW, where did you drill/cut the channel?

Also how big is the hole and where is it located in reference to the light source ball? Seems to me that directly below and slightly behind would be the best. And I guess the bigger the better, dictated by how far the channel actually moves when activated?

I may go out and try this myself this AM and take some pics.

Caba, thanks for the offer on the lenses. I was just kidding and I really don't want to get into something that involved. Sounds like Jestal has several lenses on his bench. Perhaps HE would like to take you up on the offer? There's a guy down in the "wanted" section that needs "unloved" parts, too, if you have a bunch to unload.

 

[Grumpy]

I can't help but wonder if you could set up the HID's so that one headlight produces the great low beam and the other one produces just a high beam? Given the efficiency improvement that the HID's provide, there should be more light on the road than the factory filament setup and quite a bit of power savings?

Possible?

Jim

 

[FJRocket]

Ok, here's my take on the [SIZE=14pt]JESTAL HID HIGH BEAM MOD[/SIZE]

All you need to do this is a dremel with a regular cut-off wheel and needle nose pliars.

First thing is to dremel the base of the light source so you can turn the anode 180 degrees:

That was easy, just like Jestal said!

Now the anode wire and it's thick coating sits on TOP instead of at the bottom. Like Jestal said, there's a support beam on top blocking the low beam light anyway, so you aren't losing much light there. The assembled capsule looks like this:

Next thing to tackle is to cut the activation channel that makes the shutters on the bixenon mechanism move. The high beam light comes from the bottom of the light source and lens, so we're going to let more light out from there. I measured the distance that the activation/actuation channel moves to open the shutters. It's only about 1/4 inch, so the opening is small. Keep in mind you want the opening under the largest part of the light source. If you err, I think it should be to the REAR of the light source, since the high beam light source would be best situated 6 mm rearward fromt he light source position. This location is somewhat adjustable. It's just a matter of making a longer shroud to cover the hole. More on that later....

I marked and notched the channel:

I went ahead and dremelled out as much of the channel as I thought the mechanism would stand and still be sturdy:

Time to make the shroud to cover the light source in the low beam mode. I used an aluminum can, as Jestal suggested. I hope that the source won't melt the pop can aluminum! Dremels are wonderful things...

My shroud was about 3/4 inch long and 1/3 to 1/2 inch wide. Bigger is better, you can always trim it. You can get about 30 of these from a single can. I think Jestal recommended attaching the shroud to the octagonal cap at the nose of the capsule. I made a couple release cuts and put a very slight step bend in the shroud, then bent it to closely, but loosely, cover the activation channel:

Trial fit the shroud on the mechanism:

Doesn't seem like much, but here's my results of opening the light source based on my interpretation of Jestal's HID MOD:

"High beam selected":

With the light source installed:

I think I'll use some JB weld to permanently attach the shroud to the octagonal cap. First, I want to temporarily clip it on so I can ride test the light. That will have to wait until dark. EDIT: The clip a couple posts down works so well that I may NOT JB the shroud down at all. It is VERY secure with the paper clip clip.

That what you had in mind, Jestal?

 

[Warchild]

I can't help but wonder if you could set up the HID's so that one headlight produces the great low beam and the other one produces just a high beam?

Jim -

If you read my post (the 10th one down on the page 1 of this thread), you'll see that's exactly what I am going to do.

The right lamp will remain Low-Beam Only, the left lamp will be High-Beam Only. One correctly aimed HID low-0beam is still superior to two 55-watt halogens, and you also enjoy the benefits of saving a *huge* 68 watts that you can use to power other items such as heated clothing.

Jastel and I are going about solving this Hi-beam issue differently, which is good in that folks have a choice of which way they want to go to solve this issue.

Upon further review, there are more advantages using the "withdraw" method to achieve the correct focal point, then trying to shim the front of the H4 base. So that's my approach.

 

[Warchild]

Matt -

Those photos are excellent! Definitely looking forward to your report on how the final effect will be.

 

[FJRocket]

Just added a couple more photos. My big question at this point is whether to move the channel opening more to the rear. If the center of the light source was 6mm back, wouldn't I be better off moving the slot in the channel back nearly that far? I'm thinking I should split the difference anyway and extend the slot rearward 3mm or so. I'm thinking maybe move the slot back to the upright part that you see in the pic below:

That might put more light into the favorable high beam zone in the lens, and give an easy location to mimic if anyone else wants to mod these lights.

I think I'll do that after testing. Now I have to figure out a temporary way to attach the shroud so that I can remove it if necessary. I have some stainless safety wire. I think I'll fashion a little "W" or "O" clip to hold the shroud on.

Notice in my pics how much I cut off the sides of the shutters. Makes for better pictures for the Jestal Mod, but doesn't help the light any, just fuzzes up the low beam.

YIKES!!! The board wouldn't take my post. I must have tried just as someone was moving the thread!

Jestal was certainly right, this is a fairly easy mod. You should be able to do one light in about 30 minutes. Let's wait until we do some testing.

 

[radman]

Sure seems to me the simplest and least expensive solution to all of this and more would be FOR YAMAHA TO GET OFF THEIR COLLECTIVEY DEAD ***** AND BUILD A DECENT ******* ALTERNATOR FOR THIS VOLT CHALLENGED PIECE OF ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!. (Sister Mary Elephant voice) Thank you.