Hit the kill switch when stuck in traffic

[mcatrophy]

I thought I read in a post somewhere that newer FJR's shut off after 20 minutes idling?

From my Gen II Owner's Manual:

This model is equipped with:…an engine auto-stop system. The engine stops automatically if left idling for 20 minutes. In this case, the multi-function display indicates error code 70, but this is not a malfunction. Push the start switch to clear the error code and to restart the engine.

...

And in my 2014 manual.

 

[Sharif]

Except for long lines at downhill border crossings, no.

 

[Fred W]

I sometimes shut the engine down at (longer) construction delays, but use the key switch to kill the headlights and other switched loads (heated gear, aux lights, etc.) That way the battery retains full juice so you can get going again after the delay.

In the past couple of years I have noticed that using flagmen and shutting roadways down to a single (alternating direction) lane has come in vogue at many construction zones. Even out in the boonies of Montana and Wyoming they would shut half the road down so a few workers could fiddle around with something on the side of the road. In several cases last summer we were waiting for 5-10 minutes for the "Pilot truck" to swing around and lead us through the construction maze. And the waits at border crossing back into the US are ridiculously long. Funny, it takes only a few seconds to get into Canada...

But just waiting for a stop light? No. It isn't worth the effort to stop and restart for such a short delay, IMO.

 

[wfooshee]

Doing it repeatedly, as in several traffic lights on a long commute, could drain the battery. I don't know how long it takes to recover the charge lost with a crank, but it's a lot more than the 2 or 3, maybe 5 seconds of the starter running before it fires.

And if you're having starter issues, hot starts are HARDER than cold starts.

If you're not having starter issue, using it 23 times a day instead of 2 will sure get you there.....

 

[Bill Lumberg]

One of the drivers for switching from an oilhead to a water cooled bike was so I didn't have to stare at the temp display the whole time when stuck in traffic. I've got a radiator and fans just for that reason. With an oil cooled or air cooled bike, in summertime traffic in the south, it's a constant dance with engine damage. I don't turn mine off for anything in traffic, unless I'm getting off the bike as in a shutdown where folks tend to get out of their vehicles and walk around. Of course, I have not had the luxury of riding mine in anything close to warm weather yet.

I got tired of trying the search feature, so I'll just ask: When you're in traffic and see that you'll have to idle the engine for long periods, do you hit the kill switch and restart when you can go? I've been doing this for a while now, but I'm wondering if there is a downside to the practice?
It is so much easier to do with the Gen III style kill/start switch that I've wondered if that is why the switch was redesigned? Long idle times in hot weather waiting for a light to change while car drivers take their sweet time results in engine temperatures climbing to the point that the cooling fans come on. I'm thinking that whatever extra starter use it takes is offset by the starter-- and everything else on the bike-- staying at cooler temperatures.

Do you do this and what's your take on the practice?

 

[Bounce]

Ditto those who don't switch off. Like with keeping it in gear, there's a lag in response time in the case of an emergency that can't be offset once the bike is in neutral or the engine is off.

 

[James Burleigh]

"Sit idling in traffic." I wonder what that's like...?

 

[nealopp]

From a California rider:

Idling? While stuck in traffic?

I don't understand those words you're using together

 

[MrZappo]

Other than personal comfort, this is a perfect example of people inventing stuff to worry about ...

If a (liquid cooled) bike would overheat from simply sitting at idle at a red light or if the battery would drain fast enough to cause a problem (from the fan running), that would be a MAJOR engineering failure for one or the largest and most well respected motorcycle manufacturers.

I have never heard of an FJR overheating at extended idle nor have I ever heard of a battery draining (to a detrimental level) unless there was some underlying problem prior.

If your bike is maintained well and running as designed, I guarantee that it can handle it ... They test and certify these things at extreme temps ...

Now, as far as the Phoenix guys are concerned, shutting it down to avoid boiling your legs over makes a lot of sense ... I visited there once and it is uncomfortable in the shade (let alone on a hot FJR) ...

 

[Geezer]

Other than personal comfort, this is a perfect example of people inventing stuff to worry about ...
If a (liquid cooled) bike would overheat from simply sitting at idle at a red light or if the battery would drain fast enough to cause a problem (from the fan running), that would be a MAJOR engineering failure for one or the largest and most well respected motorcycle manufacturers.

I have never heard of an FJR overheating at extended idle nor have I ever heard of a battery draining (to a detrimental level) unless there was some underlying problem prior.

If your bike is maintained well and running as designed, I guarantee that it can handle it ... They test and certify these things at extreme temps ...

Now, as far as the Phoenix guys are concerned, shutting it down to avoid boiling your legs over makes a lot of sense ... I visited there once and it is uncomfortable in the shade (let alone on a hot FJR) ...

We've had this discussion before. People who don't think there is any possible harm by letting the FJR idle with the fan running for an extended period are welcome to do so. Engineering is done within a set of constraints, in particular cost and schedules, and not everything is designed to satisfy the maximum possible conditions. A design point may very well be that the electrical system be able to maintain the charge at idle in 100+ degree heat forever, but it will more likely be that it can do so for some reasonable amount of time which will satisfy most conditions. Didn't the fallible Yamaha engineers design a ground wiring harness that could not satisfy all conditions? And an ignition switch with a similar problem? And something about an ECU which did not sample ambient conditions often enough to deal with changes in altitude?

I remember someone posting that they did indeed have the battery go dead from waiting in the customs queue entering Michigan from Canada, but I don't remember the details so there may be more to it than just the fan running at idle.

I certainly agree that shutting it down to avoid the heat building up for the rider's comfort is a good idea. Once all that aluminum and fuel and steel gets hot it takes a long time for it to cool back down.

 

[palerider]

Other than personal comfort, this is a perfect example of people inventing stuff to worry about ...
If a (liquid cooled) bike would overheat from simply sitting at idle at a red light or if the battery would drain fast enough to cause a problem (from the fan running), that would be a MAJOR engineering failure for one or the largest and most well respected motorcycle manufacturers.

I have never heard of an FJR overheating at extended idle nor have I ever heard of a battery draining (to a detrimental level) unless there was some underlying problem prior.

If your bike is maintained well and running as designed, I guarantee that it can handle it ... They test and certify these things at extreme temps ...

Now, as far as the Phoenix guys are concerned, shutting it down to avoid boiling your legs over makes a lot of sense ... I visited there once and it is uncomfortable in the shade (let alone on a hot FJR) ...

We've had this discussion before. People who don't think there is any possible harm by letting the FJR idle with the fan running for an extended period are welcome to do so. Engineering is done within a set of constraints, in particular cost and schedules, and not everything is designed to satisfy the maximum possible conditions. A design point may very well be that the electrical system be able to maintain the charge at idle in 100+ degree heat forever, but it will more likely be that it can do so for some reasonable amount of time which will satisfy most conditions. Didn't the fallible Yamaha engineers design a ground wiring harness that could not satisfy all conditions? And an ignition switch with a similar problem? And something about an ECU which did not sample ambient conditions often enough to deal with changes in altitude?

I remember someone posting that they did indeed have the battery go dead from waiting in the customs queue entering Michigan from Canada, but I don't remember the details so there may be more to it than just the fan running at idle.

I certainly agree that shutting it down to avoid the heat building up for the rider's comfort is a good idea. Once all that aluminum and fuel and steel gets hot it takes a long time for it to cool back down.

As far as a battery having gone dead after an extended idle (and I can believe that this has happened), I can't help but think that if an otherwise healthy FJR's battery went dead after extended idling (and assuming the battery wasn't borderline dead already), it was because someone was running more farkles than the alternator output at idle could support. Under these circumstances, the obvious fix is to turn off the farkles while idling (and to run a voltmeter).

Beyond that, if there's ever been an example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," it's this thread. I've read through the whole thread, and no one has suggested anything that might be harmed. Beyond this thread, I've been haunting this and other FJR fora for years and never seen a report of idle-induced damage. Has there ever, anywhere, been even a hint about a problem from extended idling of an FJR? What conceivable damage might be done? What? The rings? The seals? The transmission? The battery? The wiring? The plugs? What?

During an extended delay, I will turn off the ignition--never the kill switch, which I consider an emergency device--if I'm running low on gas or on a really hot day because of discomfort caused by fan-blown heat off the engine. Otherwise what's the point? What conceivable damage might be done? If I'm wrong, someone please enlighten me. Even at my age, when I spend more time idling for extended periods rather than running hard, I'm always glad to learn something new that will extend the life of my FJR and its parts and sub-systems. But until someone does, here's what I think: The only possible damage I can conceive of from extended idling would come from overheating. If an FJR overheats at idle then of course turn it off, but if it's overheating at idle, it's because something's already broken. I've never heard of an otherwise healthy FJR overheating from even extended idling at temperatures within normal (well, pre-climate-change normal) limits found on paved roads anywhere on planet Earth (even Phoenix).

Overheating aside, I'm waiting for someone to tell me what harm simply running the FJR's engine, which is what's happening at idle no matter what the temperature and no matter for how many hours, will do.

 

[MrZappo]

Amen. And no one will respond to your inquiry because as you said, if the bike is in good working order, there is nothing to damage.

It is "within the design specification" as an engineer would call it.

As far as there having been "bugs" over time in FJR's and other bikes, a MINOR bug ain't the same as a MAJOR design failure such as overheating by simply idling.

As I said earlier, people create this stuff out of the air sometimes.

Ride more, worry less.

 

[palerider]

Amen. And no one will respond to your inquiry because as you said, if the bike is in good working order, there is nothing to damage.
It is "within the design specification" as an engineer would call it.

As far as there having been "bugs" over time in FJR's and other bikes, a MINOR bug ain't the same as a MAJOR design failure such as overheating by simply idling.

As I said earlier, people create this stuff out of the air sometimes.

Ride more, worry less.

True dat. There's a huge difference between minor bugs and glitches in exotic and/or newly developed functionality and major bugs in basic design of fundamental functionality. Fuel-air mixture programming at altitude in a motocycle brain is an exotic technology that's been around relatively briefly; a basic functionality, like water-cooled-engine idling, is a proven, well-sorted technology that's been around almost as long as internal combustion itself.

Idling, no matter for how long, is simply running the engine. If an engine can't idle for extended periods within the heat range for which it's engineered, than it's doubtful it's going to be able to run at speed for an extended period within those same heat ranges (in which case, you probably don't want to be planning any long trips). And since idling is certainly less stressful on an engine than running it at speed, if we extrapolate the logic of this thread, you'd be even better off hitting the kill switch during an extended, high-speed run than you would be if you hit the kill switch during an extended idle. And you'd save even more gas.

 

[Geezer]

Sampling of ambient conditions was done correctly on the Gen 1 and then changed for some reason on the Gen 2 FJR. Whether it was an intentional design change or an oversight by an engineer is something only Yamaha knows. It is not some new exotic technology. It worked fine for several years and then it was changed. The ignition switch was adequate on the Gen 1 but not adequate on the Gen 2. I can only guess why, and it was minor to some people, but not so minor to those who got stranded by it. The earlier version of the cam chain tensioner is perfectly fine for most of us, especially those who learned that it needed to be changed at some interval. The few who had their engine destroyed by having it fail will not agree that it is a minor issue. Designers, engineers, programmers, and everyone else involved in making motorcycles are human beings and by nature sometimes make mistakes.

I am not complaining about Yamaha in general or the FJR in particular. I love the FJR and will likely buy another one when I need it. I also am very satisfied with Yamaha. But no one can make a machine that is perfect, and even if they could the cost would be way out of line.

I realize my response has gotten way beyond the simple question the original poster asked, but my response to him was that I do shut off the engine for prolonged stops and I do it with the key, not the kill switch. My reason is to conserve the limited electrical energy available, in particular on the Gen 1.

 

[palerider]

Sampling of ambient conditions was done correctly on the Gen 1 and then changed for some reason on the Gen 2 FJR. Whether it was an intentional design change or an oversight by an engineer is something only Yamaha knows. It is not some new exotic technology. It worked fine for several years and then it was changed. The ignition switch was adequate on the Gen 1 but not adequate on the Gen 2. I can only guess why, and it was minor to some people, but not so minor to those who got stranded by it. The earlier version of the cam chain tensioner is perfectly fine for most of us, especially those who learned that it needed to be changed at some interval. The few who had their engine destroyed by having it fail will not agree that it is a minor issue. Designers, engineers, programmers, and everyone else involved in making motorcycles are human beings and by nature sometimes make mistakes.
I am not complaining about Yamaha in general or the FJR in particular. I love the FJR and will likely buy another one when I need it. I also am very satisfied with Yamaha. But no one can make a machine that is perfect, and even if they could the cost would be way out of line.

You are certainly correct to point out that failures of subsystems can have significant, not to say catastrophic, consequences, but let's all use the same language, so we don't get tangled up in symantic misunderstandings. When I used "exotic" above, I was speaking not absolutely but relatively. Fuel injection is certainly reliable and well-implemented now, but it is still a relatively new technology compared to needles and jets; and it wasn't so very long ago that fuel-injection was exotic in both absolute and relative terms. And It is still exotic compared to the fuel-mixing technology on the chain saw I recently purchased. What constitutes exotic in engineering is a function of familiarity and experience-over-time. At one time, water-cooling was exotic, An electric starter was exotic. A fuel pump was exotic. The list is long.

So having a brain control fuel-air ratio is exotic relative to needles and jets, and it's still a new technology--and still exotic--compared to water-cooling of internal-combustion engines, which has been around for nearly 100 years. Engineers are well over the top of the learning curve when it comes to water-cooling internal combustion engines. It's not that they couldn't still make mistakes, but it's much more likely that mistakes will be made as a newer technology ramps up, as demonstrated by the mistake you mention made by Yamaha in the altitute programming after the switch from Gen1 to GenII.

And it's pretty clear that Yamaha's engineers got the water-cooling (and nearly everything else) right on the FJR, which brings us back to the OP's original question, which was (paraphrasing), "Will it hurt to repeatedly turn off the kill switch during extended idling," which is turn brings us back to the original question of the question, which is, "Why would you want to do that?"

 

[audiowize]

There are plenty of accounts of 1000CC Yamaha sport bikes overheating from idling and ineffective cooling from the electric fans. The last gentleman I ran into who had this problem was on a ferry with me, and said he left his 3-year-old FZ-1 idling in his garage while he took a phone call, and 20 minutes later the engine was shot.

I haven't heard of this happening on an FJR, and I don't think it's possible (under normal circumstances, maybe in Baker, Az in the summer it's possible), but it's not really a question that should be considered paranoia.

 

[palerider]

I would invite anybody who believes that a liquid Yamaha can be allowed to idle indefinitely to puchase an FZ-1, start it up, then let it idle in your garage for an hour. That will destroy the motor on a warm day. The last person I know who had this problem left his bike idling for 30 minutes on a 70 degree day, the damage was severe, and the case had to be bored out.
I haven't heard of this happening on an FJR, and I don't think it's possible (under normal circumstances, maybe in Baker, Az in the summer it's possible), but it's not really a question that should be considered paranoia.

But paranoia is exactly what it is. An otherwise healthy FJR will not overheat while sitting in traffic no matter how hot it gets (once again, within normal temperatures on Earth or in Phoenix). In fact I think you'd overheat way before the FJR. If it did overheat, you'd see that on your temp gauge and turn the bike off. And then, as soon as you got home, you'd check out the cooling system. But the question was never, "Is it possible to damage an FJR by doing something stupid like leaving it for an hour idling in a hot garage?" The question was, "Will it damage an FJR if you repeatedly turn it off using the kill switch while idling for long periods in heavy traffic?" Doing that is fixing something that isn't broken. There's just no need. Thinking there is a need is paranoia. Now if you're uncomfortable with the heat off the engine and want to turn if off for that reason, that makes sense. But that's a want, not a need.

As far as leaving a bike idling for an hour in a hot garage, we've all done stupid stuff. Fortunately the outcome is for most of us, usually not as serious as melting your engine. but anyone can damage anything by doing something stupid. That's a wholly separate thread.

 

[Bounce]

A point to consider is that the charging system isn't running at peak output at idle. There is a chance of discharge in some cases if let idle long enough. Any electrical additions (including aux lights, heated gear, or even higher output headlight bulbs) can tip the system into discharge at idle.

 

[mcatrophy]

A point to consider is that the charging system isn't running at peak output at idle. There is a chance of discharge in some cases if let idle long enough. Any electrical additions (including aux lights, heated gear, or even higher output headlight bulbs) can tip the system into discharge at idle.

In which case the one switch you shouldn't use is the kill switch, which will leave the electrical loads on (including headlights) with no charging at all.

Gen IIs and Gen IIIs are fine on maintaining the battery at idle with limited extra electrical loads (heated grips, Tomtom), but not much more.

I've always found that mine will hold about 14.0/14.1 at warm idle with no extra loads. Putting on extras will drop this. But, since a fully charged battery with no load has a voltage of about 12.8, I take the view that any voltage higher than 12.8 says some charge is going into the battery. It needn't be at the 14.x that you'd want for fully charging a battery. Anything above 12.8 will at least maintain the battery's charge.

 

[bgross]

The real issue with turning the engine off in heavy traffic is that there's quite a chance that an emergency vehicle may come and push its way through traffic. If I had an FZ-1, I might shut off the engine, but I haven't heard of an FJR boiling over from sitting and idling.
[img=[URL="https://imageshack.com/a/img909/5885/JncWxi.jpg%5D"]https://imageshack.com/a/img909/5885/JncWxi.jpg][/URL]

Those of us on the lower left coast see photos like that and wonder... Why? Why doesn't the rest of 'Murica join us in using all that open road between the parked cars?

So, to respond to the OP's original question: nope. The bike keeps running - and usually moving.

Several years ago I was returning from San Diego, northbound on the I-5. About a mile north of Oceanside everything stopped. I slowly made my way to the front of the parade to where the CHP had all lanes blocked. The freeway was being used as a LZ for medivac helps - eventually three of them. (A vehicle had run off the right side of the freeway and rolled.)

I parked my motorcycle, turned off the key and waited, with about 8 other riders who did the same.

30 minutes later the CHP told us to saddle up - and we had 10+ miles of freeway to ourselves! "Spirited" riding, to be sure.

That is the only time I recall turning off the bike "in traffic" in 40+ years of riding.