Hooterbuilt Aux fuel cell...what you think???

[Warchild]

Purely out of curiosity, what reasons would it fail IBA tech?

1) Mounting system must be attached to the bike frame.

2) No anti-slosh mechanism in place (that I can tell, anyway).

3) No static grounding wire (from cell body, to the frame of the bike)

4) It is over volume capacity limits. Maximum allowable capacity, including fuel lines, filters, pumps, etc, can not exceed 11.5 gallons, combined.

Mine you, this is IBR Tech requirements, vice IBA. It's an important distinction. There are no hard/fast fuel cell requirements for typical IBA rides (SaddleSore, BunBurner, etc), but there is for the 11-day Iron Butt Rally.

This setup would also not pass most mainstream Endurance Rallies held every year... Utah 1088, Cal 24, etc.

But for everyday touring and other non-competitive rides/events, it's cool.

 

[smitty141]

Purely out of curiosity, what reasons would it fail IBA tech?

1) Mounting system must be attached to the bike frame.

2) No anti-slosh mechanism in place (that I can tell, anyway).

3) No static grounding wire (from cell body, to the frame of the bike)

4) It is over volume capacity limits. Maximum allowable capacity, including fuel lines, filters, pumps, etc, can not exceed 11.5 gallons, combined.

Mine you, this is IBR Tech requirements, vice IBA. It's an important distinction. There are no hard/fast fuel cell requirements for typical IBA rides (SaddleSore, BunBurner, etc), but there is for the 11-day Iron Butt Rally.

This setup would also not pass most mainstream Endurance Rallies held every year... Utah 1088, Cal 24, etc.

But for everyday touring and other non-competitive rides/events, it's cool.

#1 Easy done... What I don't understand, "it has to be bolted to the frame." Why do they allow nylon straps and plastic buckles to hold the tank to the mounting frame work.. :blink:

#2 It does have a internal baffle...

#3 It is grounded..

#4 It actually only hold 4.29 gallons. Plus the 6.6 in the stock tank= 10.89 gallons. Theres no way you can get .61 gallons in a small fuel pump and approx 8 feet of 5/16" fuel line.

 

[FJRocket]

Warchild, does the IBR make the distinction between bolted directly to the frame as opposed to bolted to a seat frame that is locked to the frame? Is that the very reason they make a "frame mount" rule? Seems that what Skyway has in the works wouldn't be suitable for those type of events, either, for the same reason?

Interesting.

 

[SkooterG]

Warchild, does the IBR make the distinction between bolted directly to the frame as opposed to bolted to a seat frame that is locked to the frame? Is that the very reason they make a "frame mount" rule?

Yes, and yes.

Skyway's will be ok, has his mount will attach directly to the rear subframe.

 

[sgoat]

Great job Smitty! You really are a talented guy! :clapping:

 

[FJRocket]

Warchild, does the IBR make the distinction between bolted directly to the frame as opposed to bolted to a seat frame that is locked to the frame? Is that the very reason they make a "frame mount" rule?

Yes, and yes.

Skyway's will be ok, has his mount will attach directly to the rear subframe.

Thanks SkooterG!

Don't think Smitty was trying to make an IBR setup. But I'll bet he could EASILY bolt the legs of the tank mount to the bike frame to make it comply.

Nicely done Smitty!

 

[mdisher]

Most Excellent! :yahoo:

 

[Warchild]

Purely out of curiosity, what reasons would it fail IBA tech?

1) Mounting system must be attached to the bike frame.

2) No anti-slosh mechanism in place (that I can tell, anyway).

3) No static grounding wire (from cell body, to the frame of the bike)

4) It is over volume capacity limits. Maximum allowable capacity, including fuel lines, filters, pumps, etc, can not exceed 11.5 gallons, combined.

#1 Easy done... What I don't understand, "it has to be bolted to the frame." Why do they allow nylon straps and plastic buckles to hold the tank to the mounting frame work.. :blink:

#2 It does have a internal baffle...

#3 It is grounded..

#4 It actually only hold 4.29 gallons. Plus the 6.6 in the stock tank= 10.89 gallons. Theres no way you can get .61 gallons in a small fuel pump and approx 8 feet of 5/16" fuel line.

1) Look again.... I didn't say "bolted", I said "attached". The cell appears attached to a nylon seat pan. Won't pass in this current configuration.

2) If it has an internal baffle, this must be a brand new design..... previous beer-keg tanks had no internal baffled walls. I'd be curious to see a photo of the interior to see this baffled wall, if you could snap one off for me. I trust it splits the internal roughly in two (at a minimum), and the wall runs parallel to the axis of the bike.

3) Where is it grounded? Can't make out any static ground straps in your first batch of photos.... did I just miss them?

4) Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute.... my bad; I am thinking of the old 11.0 gallon standard that the IBA had for many years. Just a few years ago it went up to 11.5 gallons, So you're good here even if it does hold 4.5 gallons.

But that mounting system would fail it right away, as is.

If you intend to strap it to the frame, it needs to be pretty ironclad tight. For pillion-mounted cells that sit atop a seat, the Tech Inspectors will grab the cell body and shake it to and fro; the entire bike needs to move with it. We allow a (very) small amount of play (< .5") to account for the fact that it is sitting on foam padding. But it's not going to fly just sitting on the seat pan as shown in the first batch of photos.

But like I say, none of this is important unless you intend to run this in the Iron Butt Rally. For general riding, hey, if it works for you, then cool!

 

[twowheelnut]

A beer keg gave it's life for a gas cell? Life is truly unfair and there ought to be a law. Nice work, though.

 

[SkooterG]

2) If it has an internal baffle, this must be a brand new design..... previous beer-keg tanks had no internal baffled walls. I'd be curious to see a photo of the interior to see this baffled wall, if you could snap one off for me. I trust it splits the internal roughly in two (at a minimum), and the wall runs parallel to the axis of the bike.

CLICKY HERE young grasshopper and the knowledge you seek shall be revealed...........



Some nice stuff if your not going the total custom welded route.

 

[Warchild]

Excellent job on the part of the fabricator! If this baffled wall in all the beer-keg tanks we Tech Inspect at the Start Line of the 'Butt next August, this definitely meets the baffled wall requirements!

Now all ya's got left is to fix up the mounting system, ensure a static grounding strap is attached to the bike frame, and you should be good to go!

One other item though.... how is this cell vented again? Is there a vent fitting on the other side of the filler neck that we just cant see from the photos?

 

[FJRocket]

 

[qkslver]

One other item though.... how is this cell vented again? Is there a vent fitting on the other side of the filler neck that we just cant see from the photos?

That may answer his transfer problem?

 

[smitty141]

I think Smitty has his cap vented too? With the vent hose run out to the ground? Smitty?

Yes, it is vented as in the picture. It is also grounded to prevent a static spark. I should have played with the transfer at different main tank levels. I just gave it one try on the road with 2 bars till empty showing. The pump added a $60. to the cost, I will try different main tank levels to see if it will transfer. It was a fun build, I also installed a tank on my brothers BMW. He bought a aux tank from Jim Owens. Our trip to bike week will tell.... Smitty

 

[jestal]

So....not to belabor this but to keep me from doing something silly as I development my aux tank...

The requirement that it needs to be attached to the frame... What if it is attached to the production FJR luggage rack? Is that considered to be part of the frame or to be a frame member? Keeping in mind that the production rack is plastic, what is different from bolting or attaching the tank to the luggage rack (which seems very secure and structural) and the plastic seat pan? Since both are plastic and somewhat structural what is the determination that makes the rack OK and the seat pan not OK?

 

[mjac]

I think Smitty has his cap vented too? With the vent hose run out to the ground? Smitty?

Yes, it is vented as in the picture. It is also grounded to prevent a static spark. I should have played with the transfer at different main tank levels. I just gave it one try on the road with 2 bars till empty showing. The pump added a $60. to the cost, I will try different main tank levels to see if it will transfer. It was a fun build, I also installed a tank on my brothers BMW. He bought a aux tank from Jim Owens. Our trip to bike week will tell.... Smitty

I am transfer curious without using a pump. Have you had a opportunity to try different main tank levels and did you see an improvement?

 

[Warchild]

So....not to belabor this but to keep me from doing something silly as I development my aux tank...
The requirement that it needs to be attached to the frame... What if it is attached to the production FJR luggage rack?

Mounting the typical 4-5 gallon cell on the stock plastic rack alone is asking for eventually trouble. You can mount it there if you like, just don't bring it to the Start Line of the IBR, because I'm most likely not going to pass it. You are much better off just buying a Givi Rack and bolting your cell's rack to it.

Regardless, you guys are free to do anything you want to do when mounting an aux cell on your bike. It's only when you are entered into the Iron Butt Rally and have to pass Tech Inspection that you need to look hard at how you approach implementing an aux fuel setup.

 

[Warchild]

I am transfer curious without using a pump. Have you had a opportunity to try different main tank levels and did you see an improvement?

The vent inlet shown is waaaaay too modest for an effective gravity-feed arrangement.

If you want to see reasonably decent transfer rates on a pure gravity-feed setup, you need to have a reasonably-sized main fuel line AND vent line. On a pure gravity-feed setup, the transfer rate is hugely impacted by the system's ability to allow air to be drawn in to replace the fuel that is flowing out. The vent orifice shown would make for a laughable transfer time in a pure gravity-fed arrangement.

 

[mjac]

I am transfer curious without using a pump. Have you had a opportunity to try different main tank levels and did you see an improvement?

The vent inlet shown is waaaaay too modest for an effective gravity-feed arrangement.

If you want to see reasonably decent transfer rates on a pure gravity-feed setup, you need to have a reasonably-sized main fuel line AND vent line. On a pure gravity-feed setup, the transfer rate is hugely impacted by the system's ability to allow air to be drawn in to replace the fuel that is flowing out. The vent orifice shown would make for a laughable transfer time in a pure gravity-fed arrangement.

Thank you. I have been wondering about the transfer aspect of the beer keg tanks since I noted your remark (quoted below) earlier in this thread.

Re: fuel transfer: the most likely reason you had trouble trying to make this a gravity-feed system is that these beer-keg tanks have marginal venting properties.

 

[smitty141]

I think most guys sit around and just over analyze everything. Some say a electric pump may fail... I guess thats why Yamaha puts one in the main tank, because there so unreliable. Smitty :glare: