Hot starting (cranking) problems

[bramfrank]

So yesterday was the fourth or fifth time my bike has refused to turn over after a short (less than 10 minute) stop while out for a ride on a hot day. The symptoms were a partial crank, decaying to a 'clicking' from the starter and a clock reset (embarrassingly, twice at border crossings). Each time I've gotten the bike running with a bump start. I was lucky yesterday since I was alone, at least there was a very gentle slope that allowed me to get the bike rolling - dropping the clutch while pressing the button got her fired right up again.

It isn't the starter solenoid (if is was then the battery wouldn't flatten in 2 seconds) and the battery is fine (I actually have a couple of new batteries and it has happened with both of them) - my battery tender showed a full charge after 30 minutes (one cycle) after returning home and it cranks fine when cold - this seems like a hot start problem similar to wfooshee's issues reported here: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=121196&view=findpost&p=631622

After reading through the threads available here I have determined that this is a fairly common issue, IMO likely due to a decaying starter, perhaps because of crappy magnets or bad brushes (has anyone had a starter tested and rebuilt yet?).

Now that I know, letting the machine sit for a half hour or so, then retrying may be the solution for me in the short term if I'm on level ground - I'm not looking forward to ripping my machine apart AND spending $400 for the replacement part.

However what WAS clear from the original thread is that wfooshee clearly is not the only person with the problem.

Perhaps this problem should be posted as a sticky so that others can more easily identify find this latest electrical issue with the FJR? At least it isn't solely a Gen-II problem!!!

 

[fudgejerkin1188]

I had a similar issue earlier this year but not quite so bad (bike never refused to start). I fitted another starter obtained from ebay for £50 and the bike has been perfect ever since. I've since rebuilt the old starter and it seems fine though its not been tested on a hot engine.

 

[Geezer]

Last time I looked you could get brushes from Yamaha to rebuild the starter. I plan to pull mine this winter and see what it looks like. There have been a few posts in the past from FJRay and Ionbeam, among others, discussing the issues involved with doing it yourself.

 

[luvtoride]

I also have the same issue. Not looking forward to ripping into the bike to pull it, either. & I believe that once upon a time I remember clocklaw had starter issues.

 

[NC Ryder]

You can add my '06 AE to this. I've been pulling my hair out replacing the battery, doing the electrical subharness recall, pulling the security system off the bike, anything to try to prevent drain on the bike. I would get the intermittent starting issue, then it would fire fine after that. Battery charger showed a good charge. At this point I'm guessing it's like the above, and a starter on its way downhill. I'll start looking for the links on a starter rebuild, if anyone posts them up that would be great.

It does seem strange that I see folks having these issues with high mileage bikes, mine only has around 20k.

I found the following threads for those interested, still not finding instructions for a Gen II AE model (unsure if significant differences):

2004 Instructions

Location that does starter rebuilds

 

[snikr]

Add my 04 to this list as well. Only happens once in a while when HOT (like after a long run and you try to start it after it sets for a minute or 2). If it sets for 10 minutes or so I'm fine. Even had the LCD go blank on a cold start once but no reset of clock when this happened. New battery this spring so that's not it as it happened last year to the old battery as well. I'm looking at the starter this winter. I figure after 53k miles it's time. I plan on talking with Ionbeam after I get back from NC in a couple of weeks (no not taking the bike, taking my Mustang GT. Bringing too much stuff to my brother to ride the FJR). I'll continue to watch this thread for sure.

Tom

 

[clocklaw]

I had this problem with my 2003....rebuilt the started and it did not fix it. It's got to be something else. Unfortunately my 03 was taken from me in the prime of it's life so I was unable to resolve the issue....no problems with my 05 yet (knock on wood).

 

[snikr]

I plan on checking for ground issues as well this winter.

 

[ionbeam]

...Only happens once in a while when HOT...Even had the LCD go blank on a cold start once but no reset of clock when this happened. New battery this spring so that's not it...

Get your FJR HOT, put my clamp-on amp probe on the + batt wire, push start. Read current on DMM. If the current is <30 amps it's the battery or terminations. >50 amps and it's the starter motor. Done.

If the current is <30 amps put the battery on a trickle charger over night and next morning do a voltage check on the battery. If the battery is good then perform a voltage drop test to find the bad wire or termination.

If the current is > 50 amps -- you poor bustard, it will either be a knuckle buster or cost lots of $$$ to have someone else bust their knuckles and change the starter.

 

[Denver_FJR]

Get your FJR HOT, put my clamp-on amp probe on the + batt wire, push start. Read current on DMM. If the current is <30 amps it's the battery or terminations. >50 amps and it's the starter motor. Done.
If the current is <30 amps put the battery on a trickle charger over night and next morning do a voltage check on the battery. If the battery is good then perform a voltage drop test to find the bad wire or termination.

If the current is > 50 amps -- you poor bustard, it will either be a knuckle buster or cost lots of $$$ to have someone else bust their knuckles and change the starter.

"> 50 amps and it's the starter motor"! No way!

I've been looking for specs on Gen II starter current but only finding anecdotal posts about bench current or bad starters drawing 150+ amps, and a few folks saying a normal start should be around 80 amps.

Just tested mine using clamp ammeter on positive lead where it travels down frame near fans. Pulled fuel injection fuse so I could run starter for a few seconds and get a steady reading. I'm seeing 125 amps during initial spinup, then steady 88~89 amps. Repeated this three times and fairly consistent. Starter speed is good and bike otherwise starts quickly.

Ok, what I'm really saying is I don't want to dig into bike to replace a starter motor that's taking a trip south!

 

[hppants]

I've had this problem for about 2 years since around 10K miles (now 48K). The one difference being that when my bike does this (dying battery crank - very slow engine turn), if I release the start button, wait 2 seconds, and then try again, it starts normally. Like others, I've checked battery, starter solenoid, wiring connections, etc. I'm convinced it's a starter issue, but I think that it is more likely a break in the armature insulation, rather than a worn brush. Regardless, until the problem gets a whole lot worse, I'm not pulling that baby down.

Also, just in case anybody's interested, the starter motor from Patriot's grenaded motor is available free (shipping cost excluded) to the first member that wants it.

 

[wfooshee]

Just to add to the resurrection, my starter back in 2009 had good brushes, was not gunked with oil, had a magnet shifted, but was still no good after fixing that. I replaced it it with a used one from a forum member and have been 100% ever since.

The battery that was on the bike while this was going on had to be replaced, too. The hyper-load apparently made it unhappy.

The current draw check would have been a good place to start, instead of something I finally thought to do after several days, even weeks, of fighting it. My starter pegged the 160-amp tester I have, and the shunt got too hot to touch. (Mine was not the modern inductive tester, but the 19th-century physically-connected-in-the-circuit kind.)

 

[RaYzerman19]

Perhaps this is the way to go, when in doubt.... Get a load test done on the battery (fully charged) and convince yourself it's OK. Next, replace the starter relay, the darn thing is probably about done on a older/high miler anyway and you need one. Now we have a basis for good battery and having good ability of current flowing to the starter. Next, do the current test on the starter and see if it's abnormally high (I guess that's up for discussion, but say more than 80 amps).

If the current draw seems abnormally high but not sky-high as in perhaps 150 amps, best pull the starter and rebuild it while you can. If you continue to use it under sky-high conditions, the commutator is going to have heat damage and perhaps short out making it not rebuildable. OR find a good used one....

 

[3dogs]

Get your FJR HOT, put my clamp-on amp probe on the + batt wire, push start. Read current on DMM. If the current is <30 amps it's the battery or terminations. >50 amps and it's the starter motor. Done.
If the current is <30 amps put the battery on a trickle charger over night and next morning do a voltage check on the battery. If the battery is good then perform a voltage drop test to find the bad wire or termination.

If the current is > 50 amps -- you poor bustard, it will either be a knuckle buster or cost lots of $$$ to have someone else bust their knuckles and change the starter.

This is correct in that the amp numbers point to the general problem, or a place to start looking for the problem. If when operating the starter (and it's turnig too slowley to start the engine), and the amp draw is more that 50 amps, the amp reading is indicating that the battery, cables, starter solenod are operating as they should and are not the probmem. A bad/weak battery would not produce 50+ amps, bad/poor connections at the starter cables (and/or inside the starter solenoid) would not allow 50+ amps in the circuit.

An amp reading of less than 30 would indicate a weak battery or poor electrical connection (could be battery cables (negative or positive) or bad contacts in the starter soldenoid.

The starter amp draw test is common for automotive repair--saved hours of replacing the wrong parts or looking for bad connections.

Always load test the battery before diagnosing electrical problems with the starting or charging system and replacing the battery.

 

[ionbeam]

A healthy starter circuit draws a lot of current so when it fails it will almost always have very low current or very, very high current, the troubleshooter won't have to worry if 40 amps is too low or 60 amps too high because the current will almost always be dramatically wrong. If the troubleshooter has an amp probe or current shunt this makes the initial diagnosis very easy.

I was too brief in my descriptions but it did fit the amount of time I had to write that, sometimes I only have a few minutes to waste spend on a post (a long time ago)

 

[Constant Mesh]

From the Service Manual specs the starter output is rated 800 watts.

If one assumes 75% efficiency for the unit, input watts would be 1067.

1067 watts at say 10 volts = 106.7 amps, at 11 volts = 97 amps

Don't know what the actual terminal voltage at the starter motor would be -- voltage drop in the wiring and starter relay should be quite small. Maybe the terminal voltage would be closer to 11 volts.