How Do I Tell 'Em?

[gixxerjasen]

You know....once it's an "Official group ride" the liability deal goes through the roof. That's why on our annual MINI event, our local club makes darn sure to note MANY times that it is NOT an official club event and that we are just a bunch of individuals gathering together for a spirited drive.

Then the fact that they specify how the group is supposed to ride...if it's found to be unsafe...and something happens, ka ching!

 

[bgross]

Though its easier - and more popular - to remain silent and "live & let live", you owe it to yourself to be selfish and unpopular.

Share the AMA info with your friend. If you do, and he sees the wisdom of the guidelines, you may have saved his life. If he chooses to ignore the AMA and ends up bloody & broken, it's on him.

I've ridden 100+ Patriot Guard Missions and every time I do, I realize that so many things can go wrong. While each "mission briefing" includes a safety talk and the admonition to "ride your own ride" - and I make choices to minimize my own risk - I still see too many close calls.

Many of my fellow riders are ancient, frail, pissed off, and have health issues/medication needs that reduce their reaction time.

We were in Europe last spring when we learned that one of the 'ride captains' had crashed and died. Well, actually, he died and crashed. He had been struggling with increasingly more severe heart and blood pressure issues, and knew that his days were numbered.

When he stroked out (leading a ride), he accelerated and ran up an embankment - dead before the bike came to a rest.

Apparently the Divine Spectator was sufficiently amused, and no other riders were involved.

Tell your friend. It may scar your friendship, but it may save a life.

 

[puppychow]

Group rides are cluster-*****. No more than three tops. A group of two is a near perfect number. A group of one is just damn perfection!

 

[ionbeam]

You know....once it's an "Official group ride" the liability deal goes through the roof. That's why on our annual MINI event, our local club makes darn sure to note MANY times that it is NOT an official club event and that we are just a bunch of individuals gathering together for a spirited drive.
Then the fact that they specify how the group is supposed to ride...if it's found to be unsafe...and something happens, ka ching!

Riding with Nice Rumble and the Seacoast Sport club they had everyone sign a waiver before the ride absolving the club of any responsibility should something not go well. They ran a pretty good pace and almost always had at least 1 or 2 bikes unfit to ride home by the end of the day.

This may be better placed in a new thread but I'll stick 'er in here anyway I think just about every FJR event where I have joined group rides has been well done. Every now and again someone may be told not to crowd or got a suggestion about something to improve their group skills but over all everyone does a good job. Up in NERDS country we have only had a couple of real Bozos but they weren't FJR people (one guy on an EyeAbuser comes to mind right away). We stress that everyone should ride their own ride and if they are uncomfortable with our group to please separate and we will see them over some food and beverages at the end of the day. People that ride with us tend to see what we are doing and get with the program quickly. I'm blessed with a large number of FJR Friends locally that we ride with a lot and we have very good group structure, though we may not look too cool in all our Hi-Viz gear

 

[flapsup]

My friend and I discussed this last night when he got home. I had sent him a text message about why I left a few minutes later after I got home. Apparently they discussed my departure at their mid point stop. He said that he had spoken in favor of my concerns because he was not real comfortable with their riding style, and he had been shot down pretty hard by the group.

I was looking for information, and I guess a little bit of affirmation as well. I know I did the right thing for me.

Flapsup

 

[BikerGeek99]

He said that he had spoken in favor of my concerns because he was not real comfortable with their riding style, and he had been shot down pretty hard by the group.

Ah, the whole "group ride mentality" thing.

BTDT, but no more. All I do is tell folks, "Ahhh.... I don't 'do' the group ride thing. I'm too used to riding by myself and just don't fit in with group rides."

A few bikes at an FJR gathering? Sure. A rolling chicane? Hell no.

BTW - I hope your friend realizes that those who "shot him down" are showing him zero respect. I hope for his sake that he doesn't ride with them again.

 

[exskibum]

You know....once it's an "Official group ride" the liability deal goes through the roof. That's why on our annual MINI event, our local club makes darn sure to note MANY times that it is NOT an official club event and that we are just a bunch of individuals gathering together for a spirited drive.

Then the fact that they specify how the group is supposed to ride...if it's found to be unsafe...and something happens, ka ching!

Riding with Nice Rumble and the Seacoast Sport club they had everyone sign a waiver before the ride absolving the club of any responsibility should something not go well. They ran a pretty good pace and almost always had at least 1 or 2 bikes unfit to ride home by the end of the day.

If well drafted (typically means it's really an express assumption of a well defined risk, a covenant not to sue, and an indemnification and hold harmless agreement), that kind of "waiver" will usually hold up against others who have signed it . . . for their own injuries. But against a pillion who has not, a bystander who has not or another motorist who has not, it is almost certainly ineffective no matter what its terms might say -- those victims are not bound by a document they did not sign. So, if they're injured and any fault for the accident is traceable to an unsafe group riding practice, especially if it's enforced by the group or someone in it, it's possible that liability might be extended beyond the individual rider who actually had the collision that caused the injury.

Usually, an individual rider's own negligence is the only proximate cause of an accident. And his own decisions and actions while riding in a group do not make the group liable. This ***-clown ride captain's directions to the group, combined with the president's enforcement of those directions are what make them potentially subject to liability. A little tougher to bind the rest of the group, but not out of the question, especially if some kind of mutual group-think** enforces a dangerous behavior that proximately causes an accident.

Anyone can sue over most anything. Who has sufficiently deep pockets and how bad the injuries/damages are have direct relationships to the likelihood of suits against those whose liability is more remote. Most of the time, we don't really have to worry about those things in "ride your own ride" group destination rides. But insisting upon a dangerous practice and enforcing it is STUPID. Run away before any gets on you!

** And your friend getting his *** chewed by the group for agreeing with your concerns is exactly the kind of thing lawyers are interested in exploring in that liability game of "pin the tail on the rest of the sheep." ******* idiots!

 

[SFCJCA]

Club + Road Captain + Group Ride + Cruisers = Attempt to display "cool status". No amount of common sense will get through to a group of people who are trying to maintain their status within the group and the status of the group.

I've ridden a Harley for 15 years. It seems to me any cruiser group ride to about displaying how cool you are. I prefer to enjoy my own ride and to come home safe.

 

[Old Guy]

I've been in a similar situation except I didn't even leave the meeting area with them. I just thanked them for inviting me and said I wouldn't be riding with them that day. Nothing you say will convince them that this isn't the safest way to ride.

I think the most stunning thing to that group was that I didn't have a CB. How in the hell would I know what do do without a CB?

 

[wheatonFJR]

Having been the announcer of a number of riding events over the years, Ramble, Hooterville, etc, I know it's a tricky dance.

Fortunately, my experiences have been generally positive...and I have met a good number of FJR friends in the process.

 

[GeorgiaRoller]

I used to ride cruisers...I used to ride in group rides...I used to lead group rides of 25+ bikes...I was even talked into trying a ride club once...

I do none of the above anymore and haven't for several years now. As Puppychow so succinctly put it "Group rides are cluster-*****". Amen brother. Riding two abreast in tight formation and not staggered is stupid. Riding in tight formation staggered is better but is no guarantee for safe riding. Riding in large groups in any way, shape or form is a logistical nightmare and not a responsibility I have any interest anymore and quite frankly the only reason many ride in groups like this is because they need/want the group dynamic and acceptance from a group.

Getting a FJR sport touring bike was the best thing to happen to me because now I am the complete opposite and am content just riding 2up with my wife or just in a small 2 or 3 bike "group" with close riding friends that I know & trust & am aware of their riding abilities & tendencies. Large group riding makes me gag and I just simply won't do it anymore.

As another Forum member mentioned I really don't think an outsider from their cruiser group is gonna be interested in what you think or have to say on this issue. They're going to continue to ride how they have always ridden and they'll think your a lame *** sport touring guy that doesn't know what he's talking about. Their all grown men, they can figure this out on their own. All you can do is blaze your own path and ride safely on your own. I would tell your buddy how you feel however and then leave it up to him to decide for himself what to do.

 

[jjp4674]

You know....once it's an "Official group ride" the liability deal goes through the roof. That's why on our annual MINI event, our local club makes darn sure to note MANY times that it is NOT an official club event and that we are just a bunch of individuals gathering together for a spirited drive.

Then the fact that they specify how the group is supposed to ride...if it's found to be unsafe...and something happens, ka ching!

Riding with Nice Rumble and the Seacoast Sport club they had everyone sign a waiver before the ride absolving the club of any responsibility should something not go well. They ran a pretty good pace and almost always had at least 1 or 2 bikes unfit to ride home by the end of the day.

If well drafted (typically means it's really an express assumption of a well defined risk, a covenant not to sue, and an indemnification and hold harmless agreement), that kind of "waiver" will usually hold up against others who have signed it . . . for their own injuries. But against a pillion who has not, a bystander who has not or another motorist who has not, it is almost certainly ineffective no matter what its terms might say -- those victims are not bound by a document they did not sign. So, if they're injured and any fault for the accident is traceable to an unsafe group riding practice, especially if it's enforced by the group or someone in it, it's possible that liability might be extended beyond the individual rider who actually had the collision that caused the injury.

Usually, an individual rider's own negligence is the only proximate cause of an accident. And his own decisions and actions while riding in a group do not make the group liable. This ***-clown ride captain's directions to the group, combined with the president's enforcement of those directions are what make them potentially subject to liability. A little tougher to bind the rest of the group, but not out of the question, especially if some kind of mutual group-think** enforces a dangerous behavior that proximately causes an accident.

Anyone can sue over most anything. Who has sufficiently deep pockets and how bad the injuries/damages are have direct relationships to the likelihood of suits against those whose liability is more remote. Most of the time, we don't really have to worry about those things in "ride your own ride" group destination rides. But insisting upon a dangerous practice and enforcing it is STUPID. Run away before any gets on you!

** And your friend getting his *** chewed by the group for agreeing with your concerns is exactly the kind of thing lawyers are interested in exploring in that liability game of "pin the tail on the rest of the sheep." ******* idiots!

Actually, a waiver generally won't do diddly crap. I take part in an organization which does medieval combat. We put on armor, go out on a field and beat the crap out of each other in a full-contact recreation of combat. We do as much as we can to make it as safe as possible, but there's still the potential for injury. Over the years, I've seen quite a number of people go to the hospital, generally for concussions.

Everyone who takes part signs a waiver. It's pretty much just for show, and in the hopes that people will think that since they signed a waiver they can't sue if they get injured. In reality, you cannot sign away the right to injure you. You cannot absolve someone of the responsibility to act in a safe manner and to not cause you injury. In this case, if the group is enforcing a method of riding which is bound to cause injury, you cannot absolve them of responsibility when injury occurs. They are still expected to avoid injury. Thus, the waiver would not hold up in court.

It's the same concept of someone signing a waiver to not hold you accountable if you shoot them. When you then shoot them, the police are still arresting you and the court will laugh at the waiver when you try and claim it as your defense.

But, yes. On the original subject: avoid that group.

 

[petey]

In my past large (8-12) group rides, the riders "usually" divy up in, spirited, medium and slower riders, and the leaders let the rest catch up at turns or long straights. I would never ride two abreast with any style bike, cruisers or what ever....The bottom line...do it your way and ride your own ride...my .02

 

[RPrice]

Group rides are cluster-*****. No more than three tops. A group of two is a near perfect number. A group of one is just damn perfection!

+100, you nailed it!!!

 

[Old Guy]

Actually, a waiver generally won't do diddly crap. I take part in an organization which does medieval combat. We put on armor, go out on a field and beat the crap out of each other in a full-contact recreation of combat. We do as much as we can to make it as safe as possible, but there's still the potential for injury. Over the years, I've seen quite a number of people go to the hospital, generally for concussions.

Everyone who takes part signs a waiver. It's pretty much just for show, and in the hopes that people will think that since they signed a waiver they can't sue if they get injured. In reality, you cannot sign away the right to injure you. You cannot absolve someone of the responsibility to act in a safe manner and to not cause you injury. In this case, if the group is enforcing a method of riding which is bound to cause injury, you cannot absolve them of responsibility when injury occurs. They are still expected to avoid injury. Thus, the waiver would not hold up in court.

It's the same concept of someone signing a waiver to not hold you accountable if you shoot them. When you then shoot them, the police are still arresting you and the court will laugh at the waiver when you try and claim it as your defense.

But, yes. On the original subject: avoid that group.

I taught MSF classes for 15 years, and of course, our students signed a waiver. My attorney told me at the time that it wouldn't keep someone from suing us because we couldn't require them to sign away their rights as a condition of taking part in the activity. However, in the event of a lawsuit, their signature on that piece of paper was proof that they had been told of the inherent risk and that they had not been told the activity was perfectly safe. IOW, it was worth getting, but we shouldn't expect it to keep us from being sued. And we shouldn't expect it to keep us from losing that lawsuit.

As far as getting a waiver for a group ride, I have mixed feelings.

If I were charging for the ride I'd get one knowing that it doesn't shield me from a lawsuit. But at least it'd be proof that the signer knew the risk before participating, and it would prove that he was not told he was any safer in that ride than any other.

If I've just invited a group of people to come for a ride, no waiver. If you want to follow me, feel free, but you're in charge of yourself; if you're not comfortable with he pace, slow down, or pass me and go on. If you want to form your own group or go off on your own, feel equally free. But it's your ride, and you're responsible for your own well-being. It's not my road; I can't tell you how to ride it. I've never heard of anyone getting sued under those circumstance. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but having that piece of paper won't stop it.

After typing all that, I know it sounds contradictory, but I guess the fact that money changed hands makes me feel the need to prove I made no promises.

 

[ionbeam]

I never expected that the waiver would protect anyone from anything. Given the way it was worded I think the person that wrote it didn't know what they didn't know

I always viewed the form like a Beware of The Dog sign -- it means you acknowledge that your dog (ride) is dangerous and you are putting people in harms way.

As previously mentioned, I think NERDS does a pretty good job of managing group rides with more than 2 bikes. Everyone needs to understand that on these rides they are a member of the chorus, and loud soloists detract from the harmony.

 

[gixxerjasen]

You know....one of the oddest group rides I've been on was the one that worked the best. Went to the FZ1 rally in Arkansas a few years ago and had a blast. I opted to ride in the "Slow" group that was being led by Denise. You might have heard of her, 200,000+ miles on her 2001 FZ1.

Anyway, when she got us ready to go she admitted to how slow she was and said she'd lead the group from the back. I scratched my head but it really worked so well I'd say it's one of my best group rides yet. We all rode as hard as we wanted to...breaking up into pairs or trios, and when we came to a major intersection we'd all stop, joke and when Denise pulled up she'd point a direct and we'd all hop on our bikes and blast off that-a-way. It worked well, I had a blast, and ended up buying an FJR because of it. Ok...so it worked out so well it was my most expensive ride ever. More than the one with the speeding tickets.

 

[exskibum]

Nothing is bulletproof. Having said that, I used to represent a couple large ski resorts, a golf course, snowmobile operations and a ski race organizer. I also know and used to ski with one of the best ski liability defense lawyers in California, with whom I jointly organized and ran a bar association ski race (you need potential litigants?!?). I've done the research and drafted such "waivers", making them as bulletproof as I could, but there are limits. Note that I earlier used the term "well defined risks". Easier to say that than to adequately define those risks in all cases. Beyond that, the risks that might be waived or assumed are only those inherent in the recreational activity. Beyond that, and we're talking about the few lawsuits based on professional hockey and football hits -- if it's a malicious hit intended to cause injury, it's beyond the scope of the recreational activity and its risks. There's more, but no point in going there on this nice day.

You've hit the real bullseye anyway -- it isn't too difficult to allege that your injured client comes within some exception. Often, the application or non-application of the exception won't get resolved until trial (which is expensive), and it's those kinds of issues that are the bases for settlement negotiations. The issue is too often about whether you can afford to get to the point of winning, and not whether you would win if litigation costs were not part of the equation.

I can't reliably guess about how any jury would see the dynamics of any group ride with these kind of pack rules. The "waiver" at least provides some protection, even if it's only a hurdle to overcome in the minds of some potential plaintiffs (the reason I mentioned the real world issues of extent of injury and deep pockets as a determining factor). Again -- anyone can sue over almost anything. The system is broken. Glad to say that while I'm still a member of the bar, I effectively left the practice at the end of last year.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

I am going to say that PuppyChow's post was the best one yet. He said the most with the fewest words.

Riding with a group of idiots is worse than staying home to cut the grass. First, there is no fun to be had, second their stupid "Group Dynamics" will get you killed.

In my experience if you are going to ride with a group there are only two types of motorcycles that make it worthwhile. Sport Tourers and Adventure Bikes are the only ones worth dealing with.

Sport Tourers and Adventure Bikes are usually ridden by Real Motorcyclists. Riders with experience, knowledge and SKILLS. Both types are a small niche group and certainly are not representative of the majority of bikers. The mindset of a group of FJR pilots is much different than a group of cruiser polishers.

 

[gixxerjasen]

Riding with a group of idiots is worse than staying home to cut the grass. First, there is no fun to be had, second their stupid "Group Dynamics" will get you killed.

Third....your grass still needs to be cut.